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Wonder Society system

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
TOTAL WONDERS SINCE 3/18/2019: 2251
this is from one of my live FS. I would say it works :) and we aren't a little FS.

TOTAL WONDERS SINCE 27/05/2020: 981
this is from my other FS where I am the AM and I implemented SUCCESFULL the system. This FS is a bit smaller (smaller players), we aren't even a full team, therefore the amount of KPs won in tournaments isn't that big like in the first one.

So it looks like you compare multiround investments vs a single round investment indeed.

It's like telling a 1 year interest of 5% is not interesting since 4 years of 3% creates more profit.
This is why the comparison goes haywire.

Both systems have the same RoI when compared in the same way 1 round vs 1 round or 4 rounds vs 4 rounds
 

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
OK, you believe what you want, I believe what I know and experienced already. This is not a problem. All I know is that Swap threads are driving me crazy (no pun intended), I am tired to police if I got back the KPs from swaps and I am not willing to do that anymore. Period.
I still hope there's a FS using this system or willing to implement it.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
OK, you believe what you want, I believe what I know and experienced already. This is not a problem. All I know is that Swap threads are driving me crazy (no pun intended), I am tired to police if I got back the KPs from swaps and I am not willing to do that anymore. Period.
I still hope there's a FS using this system or willing to implement it.

That is fair, I understand that swap thread are driving you crazy, but there is 1 simple truth that you cannot create KP out of nothing.
No matter what any sheet tells you it's impossible to create a 20% RoI out of a wonder that gives only 10%. think about it?

Can you turn 1 euro into 2 euro without outside input? you can create a merry round with your family members but it will never become 2 euro just by passing it along from 1 family member to another.
But ,iIf you can please share the secret with me alone, I would love to have infinite money.
It's the holy grail that alchemist have been looking for since the dawn of time.

So the only magic KP that come out of nowhere are the ones you get 1 every hour. those are the only ones that come out of nowhere without any input required.
 

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
once my Number Mage is online I will ask him to make a summary how this 20% is possible and I will post his answer here. I understand the MO but I can't explain it very accurate since my brain has not many things in common with numbers (I have dyscalculia).
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
once my Number Mage is online I will ask him to make a summary how this 20% is possible and I will post his answer here. I understand the MO but I can't explain it very accurate since my brain has not many things in common with numbers (I have dyscalculia).

The RoI on my example of a book of secrets with 45 KP for free is actually 18% of 250kp. since you invested 205KP and got the 45 for free you could even say the RoI is 22% (for that wonder)

So it depends on the wonder and it's level what the exact RoI is.

For karvest he invests 1890KP and gets 310 for free which is 16.4%
Remember he did not invest 2200kp so the RoI does not have to be calculated from 2200kp but from his investment only.

Anyway, I will wait for the archmages response, but if he looks at this threat he should come to the conclusion that both systems should have the exact same end result.
 

Dl. Goe

Active Member
you, Cruel-Wizard, don’t you see that after explaining repeatedly and painfully clear what it is and what it is not possible, the answer is “believe what you want”; now, may I ask you, why do think Ponzi scheme will never disappear?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Swap threads are way worse in terms of fairness, but they also just redistribute KP from chests between users.
If there would be 10 players upgrading their SSS 33 => 34, no system would give them all 20% profit (2200*10*120%=26400 total KP), as there would be not enough KP for that in the pool (2200*10+310*10=25100 total KP).
 

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
dear domnule Goe :p If you have something meaningful to say, please do so. If you came just to make fun and spread fine irony, also, please refrain from doing so.

Salutari
 

Dl. Goe

Active Member
Meaningful to say would be CrazyWizard is 100% correct and no one can generate kp (or anything else) by collecting and re-distributing them; and that’s a fact, no room to beliefs.

And as a second point, if/when beliefs come into play, usually people with not so good intentions can/will speculate this (that’s why I mentioned Ponzi).

Salutare, my fellow countryman
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
FYI the reason I might be so hard about it is because I want to get rid of the misconception that there is only 1 correct way to distribute chests.

Let me tell you about a player who has now quit again.
This player had 20.000 kp and growing in his inventory. and he was constantly complaining about the lack of wondermail in his fellowship.

I pointed out to him there the above could also be an option. but his answer was short and direct "only wondermail was acceptable, he was no charity and spending kp in your own wonder was an absolute waste of knowledge points" (sounds familiar?)

I pointed out that with his growing supply of knowledge points he would at no place be welcome as his vast supply of knowledge points would swamp the wondermail and push away every other single player which would not be welcomed.
So for himself and other players it would be best if he used an alternative strategy (similar like I do for the same reason, my wondersearching created so many knowledgepoints that it would be me vs my fellowship which is a bad thing)

Eventually he got so frustrated about this and a few other things he quit the game again.
For him things where black or white but al things are some degree of grey.

People should open there eyes, there is no such thing as this way only.

When soggy came with wonder society I was like, hell no I hate a sheet, but when he explained he never used a sheet it was like ok I am open to that (in fact I was already using it without knowing it for the reason above, I already figured out an alternative so that I was no burden to my fellows)

I like the wondermail, not because it's the best but because it's easy. and thats why it's so well adopted everywhere.
I like the wonder society in the wat karvest fellowship uses it because it's easy and distributes the knowledge points more fairly but wondermail is now so normalised that people find it hard to switch to something else.
I Do not like Wonder society like suggested by elvengems, while I like the better distribution of prizes, I do not like the high entry it requires. sheets are a fairly high treshold thats especially horrible on mobile devices.
Getting 25 players to use a sheet is not easy, getting 25 players to use one of the other systems is quite easy as it's somethig that can be done in game without external resources. it's simple and it's easy.

simple and easy are the easiest route to succes.
 

Lelanya

Well-Known Member
@Alcaro
I know of a couple of fellowships on Beta that have Wonder Clubs. I will look them up when I get home in a couple of hours.
It's sad how some debate threads seem to end up with a couple of folks talking past each other. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with a simple question. I have one person on ignore on this Forum and three on the US. Isn't it sad that some folks are so focused on proving a point:
That it gets in the way of an honest answer or a lively debate!
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I come again with my original question - Is there any FS on this server which is using the Wonder Society System similar (more or less) with the one described in gems?
Yes, I have fellowships that use the WS from Elven Gems(more or less), Mail Swaps, and the much better NetZero that @CrazyWizard is pushing.
Did you have a follow-up question?
 

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
Thank you both for your clear understanding of my very simple question.

@Alcaro
I know of a couple of fellowships on Beta that have Wonder Clubs. I will look them up when I get home in a couple of hours.
It's sad how some debate threads seem to end up with a couple of folks talking past each other. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with a simple question. I have one person on ignore on this Forum and three on the US. Isn't it sad that some folks are so focused on proving a point:
That it gets in the way of an honest answer or a lively debate!

Yes, I have fellowships that use the WS from Elven Gems(more or less), Mail Swaps, and the much better NetZero that @CrazyWizard is pushing.
Did you have a follow-up question?
Yes, there is one. Even though, except Swap threads, in my current FS all it's perfect - and I mean it! - the swap is driving me nuts. I can't stand it!
I want a FS where this issue doesn't exist. I think I already said it, I do not want to use a notepad to keep track of swaps, who did/ didn't gave the KPs, in the evenings to wait (like it or not) until I have the right amount to use a swap thread. But ofc, I have also other expectations from the FS if I decide to move on, because I am very sure such a FS will have high expectations from me too.
 

Deleted User - 79208

Guest
I am with soggy and crazywizard and i think ancient wonder quickfill is the only efficient way to fill wonders for competitive players.
All other methods have either really big overhead or just be to slow to dump tons of KP (like the 20k crazywizard mentioned above).

This is the system i created way back then when tournament rewards changed to KP spells and i guess it's (almost) the same soggy invented in this market.

I am happy this is the dominant system the german competitive fellowships all use now even with me not playing anymore for over a year
but i remember it was a pain to get people to swap the system because ppl do not understand thats it's the easiest, fastest and the only system which is really fair.

In my FS back then we used a discord bot to further reduce the overhead.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Yes, there is one. Even though, except Swap threads, in my current FS all it's perfect - and I mean it! - the swap is driving me nuts. I can't stand it!
I want a FS where this issue doesn't exist. I think I already said it, I do not want to use a notepad to keep track of swaps, who did/ didn't gave the KPs, in the evenings to wait (like it or not) until I have the right amount to use a swap thread. But ofc, I have also other expectations from the FS if I decide to move on, because I am very sure such a FS will have high expectations from me too.
I don't see a question there.
 

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
Here is the answer from my Number Mage:

The Wonder Society makes sure that everyone that donates KP to a wonder gets the same percentage as benefit of his/her donation as the chests bonus KP divided by the total KP needed to upgrade a wonder level.

For example, let's assume that a wonder needs 500 KP to be upgraded. The chests in that case usually contain 100 KP as bonus. Let's assume the following donations and what the bonus would be without WS and with WS:

KP donated Bonus without WS Bonus with WS
A: 150 30 (20%) 30 (20%)
B: 100 25 (25%) 20 (20%)
C: 100 20 (20%) 20 (20%)
D: 80 10 (12.5%) 16 (20%)
E: 50 10 (20%) 10 (20%)
F: 10 5 (50%) 2 (20%)
G: 10 0 (0%) 2 (20%)

As you can see with the WS it does not matter if you get a chest or not. You get the same return on your KP as everybody else.

You get so much back as the chests give. So if the chests give 20%, everybody gets 20%. If the chests give 19% you get 19%.

The actual numbers of my FS are as follows:

*** Member / KP spent / KP gained / ROI

***AA / 50543 KP / 10247 KP / 20.27%
***BB / 6917 KP / 1355 KP / 19.59%
***CC / 1451 KP / 271 KP / 18.68%
***DD / 31881 KP / 6394 KP / 20.06%
***EE / 23303 KP / 4718 KP / 20.25%
***FF / 11956 KP / 2386 KP / 19.96%
***GG / 7858 KP / 1576 KP / 20.06%
***HH / 5455 KP / 1082 KP / 19.84%
***II / 13449 KP / 2568 KP / 19.09%
***JJ / 26453 KP / 5351 KP / 20.23%
***KK / 8784 KP / 1746 KP / 19.88%
***LL / 12811 KP / 2456 KP / 19.17%
***MM / 14569 KP / 2972 KP / 20.4%
***NN / 25002 KP / 4913 KP / 19.65%
***OO / 18229 KP / 3625 KP / 19.89%
***PP / 21043 KP / 4200 KP / 19.96%
***RR / 21312 KP / 4206 KP / 19.74%
***SS / 16052 KP / 3125 KP / 19.47%
***TT / 12294 KP / 2569 KP / 20.9%
***UU / 15482 KP / 3020 KP / 19.51%
***VV / 19762 KP /3960 KP/ 20.04%

P.S - since this wasn't the purpose I started this thread, this is my last post about this system. Each and everyone can believe their system is the best, I don't have a problem with that but I asked a very simple question and if you can't give me an answer to it I am not interested to debate adjacent subjects. I hope you will understand my decision. Thank you.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
So in this system well developed players who are upgrading 32+ lvl AWs receive more bonus KP than they give to players upgrading early levels. (As they get 20% from those several early lvl AWs of other players they invest, and provide only AWs with 16% bonus back to that players).
That's better than swap threads, but not fair too.
 

Deleted User - 79208

Guest
"This super easy system" ...writes 2 pages to explain it :D
I am pretty sure soggy and i checked all excisting methods beforehand to get the good stuff from them with minimizing the downsides^^
 
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