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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Marindor

Well-Known Member
But the kind of blatant lies you are telling us here @Marindor (always more benefits of adding wonder levels or placing expansions) ensures that I won't.

Hi guys,

After the recent changes where we reduced the impact of expansions even further, I think you can now very clearly see for yourself that these things indeed have very little influence on the overall difficulty, because other factors weigh a lot more heavily. If you are still calling that a lie and still think, after finding this out for yourself now, that you had been better off by not placing these expansions, I really don't know what else to say.

The same goes for Ancient Wonders: If you think the benefit you get from those is less than the impact they have, feel free to remove them and see how that works out for you. But please don't blame me if you find out that it does give you a harder time in the tournaments. As I've tried to explain before: Yes, of course they influence the total difficulty a little bit per level and 10 maxed out AW are a lot of levels so of course these levels combined will reflect in the number of enemy troops, but on the other hand all these high level AW give you a lot of benefits which make the tournaments (and all the other game elements) a lot easier as well. So in the end you absolutely won't have an easier time in the tournaments or in the game itself, of which tournaments is just 1 feature around the main journey, by removing (or not placing) them. But please feel free to try it out if you want to test that for yourself. After all, this is Beta, so feel free to make use of that here.
 
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spennyit

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

After the recent changes where we reduced the impact of expansions even further, I think you can now very clearly see for yourself that these things indeed have very little influence on the overall difficulty, because other factors weigh a lot more heavily. If you are still calling that a lie and still think, after finding this out for yourself now, that you had been better off by not placing these expansions, I really don't know what else to say.

The same goes for Ancient Wonders: If you think the benefit you get from those is less than the impact they have, feel free to remove them and see how that works out for you. But please don't blame me if you find out that it does give you a harder time in the tournaments. As I've tried to explain before: Yes, of course they influence the total difficulty a little bit per level and 10 maxed out AW are a lot of levels so of course these levels combined will reflect in the number of enemy troops, but on the other hand all these high level AW give you a lot of benefits which make the tournaments (and all the other game elements) a lot easier as well. So in the end you absolutely won't have an easier time in the tournaments or in the game itself, of which tournaments is just 1 feature around the main journey, by removing (or not placing) them. But please feel free to try it out if you want to test that for yourself. After all, this is Beta, so feel free to make use of that here.
Just show us the formula so we can be easily convinced :)

Deleting AWs is a possibility if you give us back all the KPs we invested following your suggestions :) BTW, why don't you allow us to teleport them? ;-)
 
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ErestorX

Well-Known Member
The same goes for Ancient Wonders: If you think the benefit you get from those is less than the impact they have, feel free to remove them and see how that works out for you. But please don't blame me if you find out that it does give you a harder time in the tournaments.

I already explained that in this discussion and on the german server as well. There are quite a few people in my live fellowship who are at the end of the tech tree and have placed all available expansions. Comparing our cities the only relevant difference is wonderlevels. Therefore the only thing we have to do to be 100% sure you are lying is to compare our squad size in the spire. If somebody has more than 50% higher squad size than me because he maxed all those useless wonders I never built in the past even when they did not come with a penalty I know I don't want to do the same. I have more than 166000 ranking points from tournaments, that's not because I have no clue which wonders are helpful and which aren't!

So please, if those fanatic hardcore end gamers are not important enough for you to come up with a solution that doesn't reduce the value of additional KP to zero for us, that's a pity and a clear sign that this game is over, but trying to argue this isn't the case is stupid and much worse than the change itself!
 
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Deleted User - 88256

Guest
After the recent changes where we reduced the impact of expansions even further, I think you can now very clearly see for yourself that these things indeed have very little influence on the overall difficulty, because other factors weigh a lot more heavily.
This argument is completely wrong. The only thing we can see is the impact of the last changes is very little, but as you didn't say how much you reduced the impact of expansions, this gives no clue about it.
If you are still calling that a lie and still think, after finding this out for yourself now, that you had been better off by not placing these expansions, I really don't know what else to say.
What we found out, by comparing cities with various AW levels and expansions, and by looking at how adding an AW level or an expansion influences Spire/Tournament squad size, is exactly the opposite of what you're saying - AW levels and expansions have a HIGH influence in tournaments. So yes, with this evidence we'll keep saying you're lying, except if you show a formula that gives the right numbers for our cities and where impact of expansions is low. And if you're giving wrong arguments instead of such a formula, this would only make us more confident that you don't have such a formula (i.e. you're lying).

PS : when I say "you" I meant the Elvenar team, not you specifically @Marindor, you're just saying what they tell you to say ;)
PPS : this question still didn't get answered :
Why [aren't you able/ don't you want to share the formula] ?
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Yeah like players can't find that one out given enough time :rolleyes:
of course they can, but company can say that it is a lie, because they didnt shared anything and it is only our imagination
it would be different if they shared formulas and then we would all argue about it
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
of course they can, but company can say that it is a lie, because they didnt shared anything and it is only our imagination
it would be different if they shared formulas and then we would all argue about it

and this is related to... another F2p game?
Who cares if the formula is released in one way or the other, why does it matter from a competitive point of vieuw how it's released?

It's more a way to tell the players on this forum (and other forums) they lie as they have no proof "yet", so there claim is correct and ours is wrong.
But each time given enough time we proof there claims are false.

I haven't seen any claim they reduced the influence of wonders and in no way is there a 4x difference between no and max wonders.
But we have to wait for a final verdict untill the formula is released again in 1 way or the other and by that time it's already live and we can .... ourselves as we will be to late.

To mee the current roadmap looks to be intended in that way.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
@Marindor said: We've stated that the difficulty would increase from roughly 5000 Tournament Points on, where this is in fact from roughly 2500 Tournament Points onward. Please do note that only a very small percentage of Elvenar players makes it to these levels in the Tournaments
(sorry, I could not quote this, probably did something wrong)

I have a feeling that the devs have a different opinion on how much a very small percentage actually is then I have and probably a lot of tournamentplayers. So I just looked into the numbers on NL1 (Dutch world), since it is almost the end of this weeks tournament.
Number of participants: => 4739
Number of scores +300 points (which is a minimum for any FS-member): => 2752
Number of scores +1600 points: => 607
Number of scores +2500 points: => 271
Number of scores + 5000 points: => 90
The percentage 271 of 4739 is very small, but then you also count in players with 5 points over all. That is not fair and should not be done.
The percentage 271 of 2752 is not small at all. It is 10 % of players who did at least a minimum (10 provinces 1 star).
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
@Marindor said: We've stated that the difficulty would increase from roughly 5000 Tournament Points on, where this is in fact from roughly 2500 Tournament Points onward. Please do note that only a very small percentage of Elvenar players makes it to these levels in the Tournaments
(sorry, I could not quote this, probably did something wrong)

I have a feeling that the devs have a different opinion on how much a very small percentage actually is then I have and probably a lot of tournamentplayers. So I just looked into the numbers on NL1 (Dutch world), since it is almost the end of this weeks tournament.
Number of participants: => 4739
Number of scores +300 points (which is a minimum for any FS-member): => 2752
Number of scores +1600 points: => 607
Number of scores +2500 points: => 271
Number of scores + 5000 points: => 90
The percentage 271 of 4739 is very small, but then you also count in players with 5 points over all. That is not fair and should not be done.
The percentage 271 of 2752 is not small at all. It is 10 % of players who did at least a minimum (10 provinces 1 star).
Interesting :) IT1 numbers:
30+ -> 3411
200+ -> 2436
300+ -> 2045
1600+ -> 528
2500+ -> 248
5000+ -> 69

We already have "less interest" in tournaments and this is one of the 2 easiest: I wonder what will happen when updates come to all real worlds ;-)
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
I hope we will see numbers also from the other servers :)

As far as these first 2 servers, it seems that INNO has 500-600 "tournament active players" per server and wants to "penalize" about 45% of them: a "brilliant" marketing strategy :)

Will they still be able to pay dev team salaries after this update?
 

Lissona

Well-Known Member
My view of things from the last few weeks (I consider myself a "casual player" - AW levels according to Elvenstats 141):
In the past:
- Province 1 to 18 maximum on 2 stars with auto-fighting (because the 4x2x18 fights were already annoying)
- Pet food used: 1 (Fire Phoenix Lvl 7)
- Units could be produced in time with the normal barracks (I have no other)
Now:
- Province 1 to 10 on 6 stars
- P 11 on 5, P 12 on 4, P 13 on 3, P 14 on 2 and P 15 on 1 star
- Tournament points: twice as many as before
- Used "Pet food": 3 to 4 (Fire phoenix lvl 7 and forced polar bear)
- I guess I'll run into problems with the available units every few weeks... Maybe even sometime with the pet food, but I can't give an estimate on that yet.

All in all for me (and I'm only speaking for myself): a significant improvement of the tournament.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
Similar proportions in EN1. We have 4,084 who have scored 300 points and 472 of those have cleared 2,500. So it's starting to look like 10-12% of players who start the tournament with more intent than just to register a score are scoring above 2.5k.

Edit: 922 players scored above 1,600.
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

After the recent changes where we reduced the impact of expansions even further, I think you can now very clearly see for yourself that these things indeed have very little influence on the overall difficulty, because other factors weigh a lot more heavily. If you are still calling that a lie and still think, after finding this out for yourself now, that you had been better off by not placing these expansions, I really don't know what else to say.

The same goes for Ancient Wonders: If you think the benefit you get from those is less than the impact they have, feel free to remove them and see how that works out for you. But please don't blame me if you find out that it does give you a harder time in the tournaments. As I've tried to explain before: Yes, of course they influence the total difficulty a little bit per level and 10 maxed out AW are a lot of levels so of course these levels combined will reflect in the number of enemy troops, but on the other hand all these high level AW give you a lot of benefits which make the tournaments (and all the other game elements) a lot easier as well. So in the end you absolutely won't have an easier time in the tournaments or in the game itself, of which tournaments is just 1 feature around the main journey, by removing (or not placing) them. But please feel free to try it out if you want to test that for yourself. After all, this is Beta, so feel free to make use of that here.
I no longer know whether to directly take your messages as an insult to our intelligence, or that you call us fools in all our faces ...
If you CHANGE the formula, removing value from the expansions, which was a key point, but you GIVE VALUE to any of the other points of the equation (whether the investigations are the level of wonders or any of the other points) the result is the next: EVERYTHING IS BALANCED AGAIN, NOTING VERY LITTLE EFFECT OF THE EXPANSIONS, BUT CONTINUING WITH ALMOST THE SAME LEVEL OF DIFFICULTY !!! !!!
I do not know if I explain myself in a few words, and well ... not like you with a very large paragraph trying to justify a joke.
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
People keep mentioning the player squad size equation which determines its base number using the same equation (or very nearly) of the spire. Yes, that is important and has been discussed so very, very, very much. Once the base squad size number is computed there are two factors that determine both catering cost and troops used in a province. The first is the number of troops you bring to the battle. That was 1/20th your base squad size times the province number and it wasn't influenced by round. Catering cost basically increased at the same rate. I presume that is very similar to the current situation. The second factor is the one I'm addressing here. It is the difficulty factor. For fighting it's the ratio of the troops they bring divided by the number of troops you bring in a stack. This used to change by round. Now it's by round and province number and it also directly affects catering cost, I presume, in the same way it was done before. This factor grows too high. It is what forces us to reach a point where we can't win the battle and must cater, but the catering cost has also grown proportionally putting it out of range too.

You can talk all you want to about how the base squad size equation becomes too large as you naturally progress through the game, but unless the difficulty factor is reduced, we will be stopped by not being able to win battles and that same factor will make it too expensive to cater. I've not heard any mention of this aspect being addressed in any real way except maybe the "we are looking at that" type comment. It should be the easiest aspect to modify. So, @Marindor is this even being considered? Can we expect any testing on lower difficulty values?
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

@LOKINHO: The total difficulty calculation is a combination of a lot of factors. If you reduce or take out one of them, of course percentage wise the rest will get a bigger influence in the whole, that is correct.

@Yogi Dave: I'm sorry, but at the moment I don't have much more specific information on that yet. I know the Game Team is still monitoring and investigating the whole difficulty balancing, running analytics about that and considering if alternatives would work better for the goals we have in mind. For the next few weeks we will test the new setup on EN to also see how things work out on a larger scale with a more balanced group of players and in a different setting than on Beta. In the meantime we are still forwarding your suggestions, and as you have noticed everyone has their own opinion on how things would work best, but in the end it will be up to our Game Team to decide what the best option will be, also considering things like the long term strategy for the game, influence adjustements have on other game elements and stuff like that. So in short: Yes, we are looking at and considering a lot of things, but at the moment I have no further specific information on it yet.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I know the Game Team is still monitoring and investigating the whole difficulty balancing, running analytics about that and considering if alternatives would work better for the goals we have in mind. For the next few weeks we will test the new setup on EN to also see how things work out on a larger scale with a more balanced group of players and in a different setting than on Beta.
Thanks for the reply. I'd heard about it going live on EN and hoped it was for a larger player base representing a much wider range of player styles and not meaning it was about to go live on the server I play on. I think one of the goals you have in mind is to rein in the, let's call it, runaway scores people are making in the tourneys. I agree it has gotten out of hand and think it's a good thing to do, just not too much, please.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Currently on US2 there is 110 players with over 5000 points and you only one player with a score below 17,000 is on the front page (top 8). It looks like 2 players have gone out 89 provinces each for scores of 24,030, and there is still 4.5 hours left.

There are 110 players over 5000 points.
There are 250 players between 2500 and 5000.
There are 367 players between 1600 and 2500.
There are 656 players between 1000 and 1600.
There are 1297 players between 500 and 1000.
There are 2552 players between 100 and 500.
There are about 1224 players with scores under 100 points.

There is a total of 6448 players with 5 or more points.

Big question is what is the breaks down of spending per player in each of those groups? With the game going on 5 years now, I'm willing to bet a high percentage of the players being ostracized with the gross level of dismissal by this move have spent $1000 or and even much more on the game. I'm also willing to bet that the group being referred to as happy with the changes, which is under 1600 points, you'd be hard pressed to find players in that category. There are many businesses where 80-90% of sales come from 10-20% of users. I bet more than half have never spent a dime.

Standing this stupid ground that only a small percentage of players are affected, which looking at my server, 1.7%, is true, but it wouldn't surprise me if these players represent half the financial base of this server.

I'm well past the point where I'm able to convince myself that the old Tournament system is engaging gameplay worthy of the rewards. Spending half an hour each round doing nothing but clicking over 2,000 times to get through all of my provinces has turned into nothing more than mindless busywork.

The reason I advocated for reducing the encounters from 4 to 1 is because the competition has become a battle of whom is willing or has time to do this mindless clicking.

For the top score on my server 89 provinces/tournament x 6 levels x 4 encounters/level is 2,136 encounters. I personally can not compete because I have 25 less provinces open. I have not continuously scouted. KP on 89 provinces is around 955 kp.

Going to 1 encounter per province would reduce that to 534 encounters. This is what was asked for. When you look at the numbers about who's playing to what score, time factors in. Because of the massive click requirements, the game has become a competition of mindless out clicking each other and in those over 600 people between 1600 and 5000 points are players that the drudgery of competing exceeds their will. It is just "ugh, stupid endless clicking" and there is no will or ability to pass that burnout to compete. I've had lots of tournaments this past year that I just didn't compete because of the endless clicking. My live tournament this week, 64 provinces x 6 levels x 4 encounters/province is 1536 encounters. What was asked for was to reduce that to 384 encounters, not say 24 provinces x 6 levels, 144 levels, with having to do about 50 of those manually....

When I envisioned doing some manual battles, I was thinking on only a few, not a requirement to get past around province 15-20, and making a level take even more hours for less benefit.

The ramp-up is way too steep. My proposal is way better and coupling that with purchase offers for expiring consumables would allow players to make purchases to better maintain their tournament level. With my proposal the desirable level 5 reaches the 1.6 difficulty by province 30. That extra consumable takes me maybe 10-15 more provinces... It really depends. With the higher squad size, losses are higher. I'm already using the consumables I make in the MA and win in the spire, and actually, my spire wins are declining. I built up a few when I just could not face the clicking and just didn't play strong tournaments for a period. I think I'd need 2 of those consumables I suggested plus what I make for free to maintain my tournament score with the less steep tournament I've also suggested.

On beta this week I went out 23 provinces and got a score just under 6k and I do not think it is sustainable. I have close to the same kp as I was getting before with the extra chests as I was not doing much of level 5 before, and getting an additional 100 kp out of level 2, so I lost those kp but I probably got an extra 42 to 60 kp from level 5, and we have 3 chests for another 30kp. But I was building on all resources before and now they are all declining. Indeed, if my teammate had not quit and given away his resources I doubt I could have done what I did this tournament.

With how the spire squad size increased, the tournament changes have motivated me even more to stay put in the chapter I am on, with the exception that because I got the orcs that I had not done the squad size upgrade to avoid, I did the squad size upgrade and grabbed 2 expansions that were just on the other side of the squad size upgrade. Where I was sitting it no longer made any sense to not have those expansions, and with the massive hit of orcs and even goods, stopping with the expansions made more sense. I already have the cost of 8-9 expansions for orcs needed included in this chapter, but I did not have all of the expansions. I left 4 provinces requiring orcs in the tournament. I would need about 3 more expansions of orcs to cover those orc costs. There is absolutely zero motivation to move forward from here, so I deleted what I needed in the guest race to get those 2 expansions. On live the cost increases in the spire from going through chapter 16 and adjustments if adjustments were made were massive. The new tournament has the same kind of garbage included and I do not believe I would do better moving forward.

I do love the one encounter/province. This is what was asked for, not a massive slaughter.
 
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