Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[DeletedUser2378]

It’s pretty intimidating to post over here, when the player base who are giving feedback on this forum don’t align with you or your fellowships’ play style….but I’d like to give mine anyway.


Seeing words like, “nobody”, “everybody”, “we all feel this way”, etc. is not accurate.
There are thousands of accounts across the Elvenar servers. That comes with varying play styles and opinions. Please keep this in mind.


I’m not upset about this change to the Tournament. My fellowship on Beta is not upset about this change. In fact, I’m seeing the exact opposite. My team is completely diverse, with some players having many fighting wonders and are aggressive with KP and/or going through chapters quickly. Some are diamond buyers, some will cater an exact amount of tourney provinces each week or battle a certain amount of provinces each week, some will piddle along each week just to help out the team, some ignore the weekly tourney’s, on and on and on. See? “We” aren’t all the same.

My fellowship is not a 10 chest a week team. We average about 5-6 chests a week…. and yet, we aren’t even through day 2 and we’re about through with the 6th chest. Casual players are able to go much further and gain more points now.


I’ve seen some great suggestions here for those who have worked really hard to level up their wonders. Thus far, I haven’t seen a huge impact with battles. Of course they are going to get harder the further out you go each day, yes, just like the Spire….and just like many other games out there. It’s not a punishment for your hard work, it gives an opportunity for you to do more than I ever could, as a non-fighter.

Same with expansions. Of course you add more into your town with those expansions, premium or not, that help your wonders/goods/etc.

There has been a need to fix the amount of KP we get in the tourney since it began. Why is it fair to gain hundreds of KP for some but not for others?

Randomization is also the norm for games. Those are generalization words and they don’t really fit with this game or what they are trying to do with the change to the tournaments. It specifically says in the Announcement and Youtube video that this balance was made so tournaments were fair for ALL players. This should be kept in mind when giving feedback. It’s not about some, but about all. That’s a tough balance to achieve and I appreciate Inno taking the time to try to make features in the game work for everyone.

…and we are only on day 2 of testing this new feature. They are not going to make any changes suggested immediately. Let’s give them some time to do whatever they do. We haven’t even seen a full tourney week yet.

Threatening to quit or calling everything a nerf, on a testing server when a feature has just started its testing, isn’t helpful, realistic or constructive. We are lucky to have a game where we can give continuous feedback and have the Developers read how we feel.



So anyway my feedback, regarding the Announcement (from a casual mindset only):

-I love the merged 4 down to 1 encounter per tourney tent! I have many worlds that I play in and this will make my life much easier!

-The balance of goods needed/units needed per province has been great so far. I’ve been able to go further than I was previously willing to do, as has my fellow members in my fellowship.

-Wondering if there will be an adjustment to those past squad size upgrades for players who have skipped them. Will we see a cost needed change so that all are able to go back and research those techs easily?

-I could see that there may be some adjustments needed for future event quest that ask to complete "x" amount of tourney provinces, etc.

-Catering is an even more obtainable option for completing tourney provinces. It was difficult for players to receive the same goods needed on specific tourney weeks, when the entire World Map were needing the same goods.

-Battles went smoothly for the first several tourney tents and then became increasingly difficult, which is fair and expected.

-If my team is now able to get even 1 or 2 more chests a week due to this change, I call that a success. Same with having to click less and be able to do more with less clicking.

 

[Deleted User - 88552]

That part means that you can now do all the optional ones and the world map fights will be easier because you will have bigger squads, but the enemies won't.

And have a far more difficult Spire? On the plus side, I like the new tournament graphics

 

[PaNonymeB]

"As you can see, the difficulty doesn't increase until you are really far into the Tournament (roughly 5000 points' worth), which is typically reached only by the most hardcore and veteran Tournament players, for whom we intend to offer more of a challenge."
Looks like this sentence from the announcement should be understood this way :
"A score of 5000 points will bring you to encounters whose difficulty is similar to the hardest encounters of the previous tournaments, so that only the most hardcore and veteran Tournament players will be able to reach this score."

 

[DeletedUser2630]

Size 5000

4 meetings

1. bad combination of troops, loss of 50%
2. good combination of troops, loss 0%
3. medium combination troops, loss 30%
4. good combination of troops, loss of 2%

total loss 4100



Size 5000 * 4 = 20000

1. meeting
1. random combination of troops, loss 50%

total loss 10000


You who defend the new system, do you already understand why the new system is bad?
It's not just that this is unplayable for us, who have high AW, but those losses will be multiple in the new system.
You can't just multiply the cost by 4 times! Because this does not maintain the same complexity or cost.

(The data is random for example. )

 

[Karvest]

Casual players are able to go much further and gain more points now.

Not further enough to get 10 chests. And those who were near that point now pushed back, as getting enough points for 10 chests now require more efforts.

1. meeting
1. random combination of troops, loss 50%

With random combination of troops 4 fights would give same 50% loss, that's what bad in new system, and not the reduced number of fights.

 

[PaNonymeB]

Another place where INNO lost diamonds with this change :
To be able to make a level 5 MA constantly running CC, one needs to get 252 relics on Boost+2 weeks. That requires to do 16 provinces to 5*, which looks hard in the new setup, even if it's required only every third week (I don't have a large enough Beta city to test it.)
So now let's look at the benefits of upgrading MA :
1. Faster spell production. This is ineffective if you don't get enough relics.
2. Better disenchanting. Not a huge benefit, especially with the Spire giving spell fragments.
Conclusion : less players will pay the 750 diamonds for this upgrade.

 

[DeletedUser2630]

With random combination of troops 4 fights would give same 50% loss, that's what bad in new system, and not the reduced number of fights.

That's what I'm showing there. I tried to show in the example that 4x1 != 1x4 in absolute values.

 

[Karvest]

but it's the same if you compare 10x(4x1) and 10x(1x4) in absolute values

 

[DeletedUser2630]

Well, it's even worse with how everything is calculated and composed.
I agree, maybe we didn't understand, I'm using a translator. I understand but I don't compose those sentences much

 

[Marindor]

Not further enough to get 10 chests.

Actually, the new setup should make sure that with a full Fellowship you can reach 10th chest with 1600 Points per player, which comes down to about 6 provinces on 6 rounds, which should not be too hard. Is your experience different at this point?

 

[baypen]

Researching them now gives you a benefit instead of a downside.

I now researched one of the prior optional squad upgrades, I checked before troops counts as well as catering goodbeforeand after, but there was nothing changing, it stayed exactly like before the additional research. Can you maybe explain to me, what exactly is changing in torunament with additional squad research? Because I couldn´t identify this effect.

 

[TimberNZ]

I have mixed feelings about the tournament changes but more bad than good - but mostly fixable.

I really like the change to one fight or cater per province - it makes keeping accounts across multiple servers more manageable time wise.

I have mixed feelings about unlinking difficulty from squad size.
I agree that having a researchable technology which mainly disadvantages a player needed fixing BUT I think the new system might have fixed one issue and created 3 more.

On one hand, I appreciate the sentiment that by linking it to multiple things and no one change more difficult than the advantage from that research/building/upgrade deals with the old issue, it does strongly reduce the impact of those AWs. Already there are a number of AWs that many players don't build because 'they are not worth the space'. This will probably only accentuate that problem. It's quite disappointing for players to suddenly have AWs they have put a LOT of effort into suddenly be much less effective.

On a bit of a side note, it the current system of calculating difficulty is kept, it would be important that resource cost and fighting cost not be linked, or you end up with a similar problem to what is trying to be solved.

Back to how difficulty is calculated, it might make more sense to have a very simple calculation based on what chapter, and how far through that chapter someone is. That way AWs are still effective and it incentivises players to upgrade buildings and AWs (ie play and enjoy the game how it is designed and not just rush through the chapters).

I would agree with the large number of players that have expressed that the difficulty and cost ramps up too quickly. I understand that it needed to be adjusted when players could get to the stage where fighting a large number of provinces could essentially do so without any loss. However, I think the change goes too far the other way.

Finally, I think another look needs to be taken at the catering costs. While appreciating they are reduced, more players are going to be catering now. Additionally, I am finding in the early guest race chapters that I am asked for coins and supplies, like I am in the very early chapters. The trouble is that the amounts are large and the storage is limited.

While I think this works well on the spire, for the tournament it makes it very limiting - and even while one can use instants that in itself is limiting. While, once players got to around chapter 4 there was little in the way of coins or supplies needed, it meant that alliances could decide to do a push in a particular week and have a week or three to save up for that tournament. That created some great team play for fellowships who couldn't do 10 chests every week. However, with this change you can save other rss as much as you like, but if doing so makes all the players run out of coins and supplies it could dent this play which I think is favourable to players and to Elvenar.

So overall summary of view is that it fixes some issues and creates some issues. I think three tweaks would alleviate a lot of players frustrations while keeping high motivation for upgrading AWs etc:
1) Change how difficulty is calculated - what chapter and how far through rather than current complex calculation
2) Reduce how fast it gets (super) difficult/expensive
3) Reduce either the amount or the frequency of requests for limited storage goods

And as a postscript and much more minor thing. I think that the new chests have a low level of reward for the level of difficulty in getting them. Make them more attractive

PS - edited for grammar....

 

[baypen]

Is your experience different at this point?

The Problem will maybe be the time management (to reach 6 stars) for smaller accounts without boosters for time reduction. Missing high potent boosters (bears and phoenix) should urgently be selectively offered PLUS artefacts in the crafting part, because this causes still an amazing difference.

 

[Egidiois]

Actually, the new setup should make sure that with a full Fellowship you can reach 10th chest with 1600 Points per player, which comes down to about 6 provinces on 6 rounds, which should not be too hard. Is your experience different at this point?

We do 10 chests every week thank to who do 4k+ points, cause, many player just do 5 rounds, and some even less...

 

[DeletedUser1657]

@Marindor are we expecting this change to go through to live in the usual 2 weeks? Some of your comments about analysis hint that maybe more time is planned to assess the changes and impact. I am sure it will take more than 1 tournament to assess.

I can understand if you can't share the time frame but it might help people if they feel it is not been rushed and time for feedback and adjustments is factored in.

 

[guivou]

Actually, the new setup should make sure that with a full Fellowship you can reach 10th chest with 1600 Points per player, which comes down to about 6 provinces on 6 rounds, which should not be too hard. Is your experience different at this point?

practically only a few common players are able to do 6 turns, 1600 points is most likely 8 x 5 round , as for the spire it's difficult every week to have 25 attendants to the tourney , more likely 23 , so average is between 8 and 9 provinces to do 5 round , so be sure that before 10 province round 5 is not too difficult and not require manual fight to reduce high losses (because as explained just earlier with random troupes loss are probably double than usual because we will never have good combination of troups as we found in previous tournament )

if we have to do manual fight , this evolution is the opposite as wanted : one complex manual fight is far more time consuming than 4 simple automatic fight (and also manual fight is not available for all )

 

[CrazyWizard]

Actually, the new setup should make sure that with a full Fellowship you can reach 10th chest with 1600 Points per player, which comes down to about 6 provinces on 6 rounds, which should not be too hard. Is your experience different at this point?

The old setup was also 1600 points on average, and 6 rounds are for most players not achievable without the timewarp wonder.
8 times 5 is the more common strategy, just as 20*2 and a bit on the other rounds
1600 points per player wasn't hard in the old setup as well, yet many players still do not get this mark on live.
I do not see how this "change" would change the behavior of those same players. it is really hard to get everyone on the guild aligned.

This is where those "hardcore" players come along, they can drag the fellowship over than 10 chest hurdle.
For some people within the fellowship that first succes is also important for the future. every time you just not make it it becomes discouraging for the fellowship, but if those 1-2-3 players are able to compensate and make that 10 chest happen it can create a movement of success that is a road to a permanent succes, as players see it IS possible, and they can do it, they start encouraging eachother.

Motivation is the key to success and creating motivation just become more difficult.

It's was very similar with the spire and this is a path some "gold" felowships have taken / are still taking.
There is a good reason the spire has not taken really of and that most fellowships outside of those few special "hardcore" fellowships are still struggling with tower motivation, on NL1 one fellowship gets natural gold, 2-3 fellowships get gold with "tricks" 45 fellowships get 10+ chests of which ~11 do 1.5-3x the needed amount points needed for 10 chests and from those "hardcore" fellowships only 1 is able to get tot the top without double accounts, account switching ect. (the 3x 40k fellowship)

This is what several people referred to about limiting the possibility to compensate. without compensation that inital success as a catalist for true success will be really hard to achieve. the ability of the few as a guide and motivation for others will be gone.
If stories about how good the tournaments are would no longer be spoken.
How do you expect people to get motivated to reach a goal?

Then they are a 5-7 chest fellowship and always be a 5-7 chest fellowship.

 

[TimberNZ]

The Problem will maybe be the time management (to reach 6 stars) for smaller accounts without boosters for time reduction. Missing high potent boosters (bears and phoenix) should urgently be selectively offered PLUS artefacts in the crafting part, because this causes still an amazing difference.

Agree. I took some time out on all my accounts and so don't have any bears of phoenix. The difference this makes is huge!

 

[Yogi Dave]

Randomization is also the norm for games. Those are generalization words and they don’t really fit with this game or what they are trying to do with the change to the tournaments. It specifically says in the Announcement and Youtube video that this balance was made so tournaments were fair for ALL players.

There is a good point here. Players that are boosted in the tourney types that are considered hardest, such as scrolls, are at a disadvantage getting enough relics to increase their boost and making the newer spells. This can also be a problem for someone whose T5 boost is ink.

That being said, it's somehow not satisfying for all tournaments being exactly the same with the need to have all troops and goods available. Also, when fighting you see troop combinations from all 9 tourney types (although they are only the ones with 5 stacks, which has its own problem). Perhaps, a solution, abet not perfect for several reasons, would be to have tourneys still specific like before but remove one for only 8 types. This would mean all goods would eventually cycle through all tourney types. I know that might make it confusing for a while. The names of the tourney types could no longer be marble, etc.

Actually, the new setup should make sure that with a full Fellowship you can reach 10th chest with 1600 Points per player, which comes down to about 6 provinces on 6 rounds, which should not be too hard. Is your experience different at this point?

Strictly speaking, this is true. However, the tourney is only 4 days and 3 hours. That makes it tough to do all 6 rounds without losing sleep at least one night, unless you have the Timewarp or Polar Bear. Someone who only plays once a day can barely get 4 rounds. With only doing 5 rounds, it takes 8 provinces. With 4 rounds it takes 10 provs to round 4 and another to round 2. With the increase in difficulty growing with prov. number it is getting difficult to achieve victories or more costly to cater. If one of the objects is to have us do more rounds, it seems like the 16 hour cooldown time needs to be reduced to allow one to do more rounds since people have to work around work schedules and sleep time. I don't think adding more hours to the tourney would help much.

It also feels very awkward to suggest changes since I don't want ice cream with my broccoli and I don't even want to think about bikinis, at least not that way.

 

[tradescantia]

Seriously? is this what you intended? I have three active cities - a large one on Win, a smaller one on Beta and an even smaller one on Harandar.

Here's a side-by-side comparison of what I encountered in Round 2, province 13 in those three cities:


Win (chap 17, skipped most SSU) 5 enemies, 3 LM, 1 HM, 1 LR - more or less what you'd expect in an elixir province. SquadS: 2134T - 2134E

Har (Orcs skipped most SSU) 6 enemies 4 LM, 2 HM. SS 434T - 498E

Beta (Halflings skipped most SSU) 5 enemies 2 LM, 4 mages - not the usual enemies we'd expect in an elixir province. And now the squad sizes: (drumroll)
SS 2849T - 3847E

You'd expect the Beta city and the Harandar city to be more or less similar, right, even with the increased difficulty? In fact, it's much harder than my considerably larger, more powerful Win city. More than 5 times greater squad sizes than in my H world city? That's crazy.

I have my Beta city designed for fighting, and I normally do 20 provinces on day one, autofighting, with no few or no defeats and no need to refresh troops (I use the ones trained in the days since the last tourney). I managed 20 provinces in round one yesterday, but had to train extra troops and add my Fire Phoenix as a booster that I usually save for later rounds (due to shortage of petfood). I also ended up catering a number of battles that were unfightable because I'd trained the wrong troops (expecting a normal elixir province). Oh, and did I mention the 79k (!!!) supplies requirement for catering in the province I mentioned above?

To be fair, I think these changes will appeal to those who don't fight a lot, and the single province will encourage those who don't want to put in the time. It might be better for manual fighting (I usually auto-fight).

And come on, are you seriously only offering 10 kp and 1 RR spell for each of the new, super-difficult chests?? Why would anyone even bother?