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Why Orcs are needed after 10th provinces circle?

  • Thread starter DeletedUser1548
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DeletedUser

Guest
players who are having problems with fighting can ask for help on the forum.

This was addressed to BobbyKitty, so just for clarification: The US1 forum recently had a bug that displayed total tournament points for each player. BobbyKitty was in the top 10 - a worthy place for a no-$ player....But my point being that her fighting skills are significantly above average, and still she's having trouble.

This has been calculated upfront, just as the chest were calculated.

And I'm sure the Province difficulties were calculated with Fairy Units in mind. But we don't have them, so of course the encounters are going to be more difficult. Despite Goryn's opinion, there's no indication that these provinces were meant to be conquered without the use of all three Fairy units: Sorc III, and both flying units.

I'm not upset that the fairy units have been delayed, but the encounters should have been adjusted.

About requirements for Orcs for Ring 10:

My no-pay city is half way through Dwarven tech, and I'm working in all Ring 9 provinces. If Ring 10 is inaccessible without Orcs, I'll have no expansions available during Fairy.

Ring 10 is too soon.
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
About requirements for Orcs for Ring 10:

My no-pay city is half way through Dwarven tech, and I'm working in all Ring 9 provinces. If Ring 10 is inaccessible without Orcs, I'll have no expansions available during Fairy.

Ring 10 is too soon.

this is exactly the point we are trying to make, @Goryn !

orcs to negociate are not a problem
once again, the game asking for orcs from players who cannot provide them is the issue;
this feature is arbitrary, unbalanced and unfair.
 

DeletedUser1231

Guest
We will, of course, monitor this situation. If ring 10 proves to be too soon to have Orcs, and many players who haven't reached chapter VIII won't be able to negotiate anymore, chances are, it will be changed. Negotiating can be made harder, but should not become impossible.
Being for the era of orcs I thought "silly" that orcs was compulsory for the negotiation only having finished the fairies.
I have just read this discussion has to tell you that I am extremely disappointed.

On the French server I have just just begun the dwarfs and I am already in the ring 10.
It thus means that I am going to have to wait for 2 complete erae (approximately 4 months) before being able to negotiate a province?

I am a player who likes the challenges and I always adapt myself to innovations without grumbling but I can tell you that if you install this innovation on server national you go to lose a player.

To oblige the players to put armory and the academy is a logical choice and I adapt myself to it even if it does not please me (I play without barracks since the beginning on the French server)

But to block the players for months it is inadmissible.
There are almost always one or several fights impossible to be made by province (except for the fighters exeptionnel with enormous losses)

If it is your vision of the game then I am goodbye going to tell the French world.

It shall be a great pity because to elvenar is a game that I love but jamming during 4 months to free extensions by provinces represent a frustration far too important for a supposed game give me of the pleasure.

EDIT : This message addresses well évidement not in people who manage this forum but to the designers of the game who (I think) did not reflect in consequence of such a novelty. Everybody has the right to make a mistake, it is not grave.ce which account it is to see the errors, to correct them to redo them then not more.
 
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Lissona

Well-Known Member
Oh, and by the way, some changes are so tiny, such minute changes, it doesn't make any sense not to change them. This is a global game yet you ignore various cultures. Americans have told you that the whole selling orcs concept makes them uncomfortable. They see it as slavery. We have a different history and a different sensitivity to things than others do right now.

The "selling orcs concept" was no idea of Elvenar/Innogames - in fact some of the players named it that way. They wanted to see it that way.

But let's pretend I understand that part - what I don't understand:

Slavery (of orcs, a fantastic figure) is not a part of the game these people like to see - but to conquer new land (of which the inhabitants pose no threat), simply for ressources and building ground, by killing the opposite priests and meelees (something we have in real), is okay for them? Why? Because the ancestors of the respective people did it that way some long years ago? For me that sounds like double standard.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
Americans have told you that the whole selling orcs concept makes them uncomfortable. They see it as slavery. We have a different history and a different sensitivity to things than others do right now. Many of us come from families that were owned as slaves. Our cities are being shot up right now and police murdered because of the past we have with slavery. Citizens are being murdered by police because of the past history we have with slavery. Our streets are filled with protesters and tensions are higher than in even the 1960s

Let's make one thing clear here. i do not want to see posts like this on the forum because it's all about politics, and political discussions are not allowed.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
this is exactly the point we are trying to make, @Goryn !

orcs to negociate are not a problem
once again, the game asking for orcs from players who cannot provide them is the issue;
this feature is arbitrary, unbalanced and unfair.

As i have said before, we will continue to monitor the situation.
 

Lissona

Well-Known Member
I asked you this months before and you never answered. Now it it clarified.
But with a BH3 your still not comparable to a normal player who doesn't visit the forums/takes part in contests. You still have an enormous advantage.
 

DeletedUser1025

Guest
I only write this comment to add to numbers of those who disagree with orcs included in the costs of provinces. There is no way I can win all fights in some provinces. For producing enough goods to buy SOME of them, which are really costly now (how many turns you have to do with lvl 15 tier 3 to get 15000 pieces....)
I need manufactories, which need populationa and certain amount of workshops (to be able to produce at all). I have no chance to upgrade my residences, because they get bigger. The same applies to workshops and I did not even start to build the orc production buildings. Let alone the mysterious special units, which may or may not appear and THEIR bulding. I have only FOUR ancient wonders so far and cannot even begin to think how many extensions I would need to place more of them...why do we have them then???
It was difficult enough with long scouting and useless units, which cannot win the fights (even with the Sabctuary/Monastery on lvl 11!!!). In elven army, the first three types of units are completely useless, by the way.
Which buildings do the makers suggest I get rid of???? Surely not the production buildings, I certainly do not overproduce anything. Academy would be a great candidate for removing but it became compulsory. Who knows why?
I am not giving up easily but this game got completely stuck for me because of the requirement of orcs in negotiating the provinces. Cannot move an inch without more expansions. Even that would take a month or two with a 3-day scouting and 9 provinces for expansion. One or two expansions in the research are not enough to even start thinking about the orc production. Honest, I ran out of ideas what to do now. I am already at very low culture lvl and there is no chance to find space for another one (and I need at least two or three). The buildings grow in size like mad. Someone has not done the calculations well.
The truth is that my position in the ladder had moved up (again) over last few weeks, which means that more people in front of me stopped playing. True, the market became pretty much dead in my neighbourhood and I have so many mines around me that I can hardly spot a neighbour:) I have abou ten of them (within cca 11 provinces distance). Who is going to test this game if not those who are ahead of live servers? Does not make sense.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Americans have told you that the whole selling orcs concept makes them uncomfortable. They see it as slavery. We have a different history and a different sensitivity to things than others do right now
Let's make one thing clear here. i do not want to see posts like this on the forum because it's all about politics, and political discussions are not allowed.

Sensitivities are created by current or historical events - and mentioning them isn't the same thing as discussing politics. And some sensitivities been respected here in the Forum - particularly the German ones. I've had several posts deleted because they offended said sensibilities by making even oblique historical references. Once, my frequent Forum debate partner quoted Winston Churchill - applying his theories to playing Elvenar. I quipped back that his efficiency style was more like Churchill's counterpart - and the post was deleted.

If one player can mention a historic figure without censure, while reference to another historic figure is disallowed - then this is clearly about the sensitivity of the issue. If you choose not to consider our sensitivities, so be it. But if the developers intend to eventually broaden the marketing scope of Elvenar into the US (once all this design and re-design phases are completed) - then the Forum is the correct venue for us to be certain they're made aware of this "slavery" issue.

The US is increasingly affected by social justice issues, and the pendulum has swung to extreme interpretations. It's realistically possible that the game could be targeted as an example - we've seen some ludicrous instances of negative PR for companies who accidentally stepped on the hyper-sensitive toes of our Millennials.

Why not avoid any potential negativity with a bit of story re-write? Orcs aren't happy living with gnomes and want to emigrate, and the other provinces want them because they're such desirable workers? Because the alternative, well - Oh my - surely it's not politically correct in Europe to script a population of inferiors who are so destructive they're to be traded away like goods? I'm not making a political comment - just commenting that current world events mean that this storyline makes Elvenar a target for any crusading social justice warrior. And I'm sure there's not a player nor developer nor moderator who would like to see that happen.
 

DeletedUser338

Guest
We were just told Orcs were sent to defend provinces further away, not as slaves, but as soldiers. And they're happy to do it, because they like fighting. Why do a story re-write?
Everyone turned this into a "they're slaves" thing, but they never were.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
Because they are negotiated "costs". They are listed among other "goods". And that story line of them defending things doesn't work when you have to use them to upgrade workshops.

I don't get the gigantic resistance to adding one word of text. If you called whatever we traded Orc things...as in Orc clubs, or Orc tunics, or whatever, this whole thing goes away. Would you rather fight so hard to be right than change a word? Or are you fighting so hard because you want me to be wrong?

In fact, why are you objecting?

Maybe it is a language thing or grammar thing. Maybe they don't realize how this comes across to others. Maybe it is a hypersensitivity cultural thing. It doesn't matter. If "everyone" turned this into a slave thing, then clearly "everyone" who did sees them as being slaves.

Companies test goods, games, anything they are selling and they test certain markets to see how they are perceived there. Often times people take something very differently than what it was intended to be. Coca Cola doesn't argue with people who don't like one mascot over the over. They listen. Take in the feedback.
 
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DeletedUser1075

Guest
I think lvl 10 as the barrier is a mistake. I was already on lvl 10 of provinces when I started fairies. Which would have put me significantly behind, and unable to upgrade half the buildings I have. Some of the fights - especially elixir provinces, but others as well - are simply too hard for the units we have. That's okay. We negotiate them*. Except now... we can't.

I now have 16 expansions to fill, and only 4 available in the research tree. So I'm behind where I'd like to be at the start of this new chapter, but now I am blocked from catching up because somehow the game decided that I should only have scouted through level 10 of the provinces so far, rather than having 303 completed (and a few open and waiting for me to fight/negotiate... oops, can't negotiate anymore).

I'm trying to manage my space a bit, and holding off on deciding anything until I finish the fairy quests that have built up since I avoided the MA as long as I could. BTW, that's still not useful - just required for the contests. So I'm a bit peeved that not only am I blocked from negotiating provinces, but I lost an expansion to a useless building too.

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but level 10 - if it is currently set to that - would definitely not be right as I would have hit that a chapter ago and been even worse off.



*Unless we're Philplessis, who is better than I am at fighting. Hey, we can't all be battle gods. ;)
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
I am not a good fighter;
just obstinate :p
as I am blocked from completing ring 11 elixir provinces because I have to negociate some encounters, I decided to turn instead towards ring 12 planks provinces;
so far 1 has fallen and another one is close to completion, and I got the 1st out of 2 expansions that I need to make room for my future orc rally points without loosing too much culture...
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
I see I will not get the answer for my 'WHY' question. :)
I didn't want to say it but... Do you think blocking progress on the map will 'help' people to buy expansion with diamonds? Is this the case? This will be monitored?
Often if you don't know what's going on it means it's all about the money. ;)

Sensitivities are created by current or historical events - and mentioning them isn't the same thing as discussing politics. And some sensitivities been respected here in the Forum - particularly the German ones.
Let me think... Which names are forbidden to write in a game chat... Hmm... ;)

We were just told Orcs were sent to defend provinces further away, not as slaves, but as soldiers. And they're happy to do it, because they like fighting. Why do a story re-write?
Everyone turned this into a "they're slaves" thing, but they never were.
I am not sure lots people read carefully ingame texts. They are so infantile and often does not mean a thing that this is a waste of time.
Still, for me it does not change anything. We breed them as animals and USE them as we please. In my country slavery was never an issue but it makes me feel uncomfortable.
 

DeletedUser338

Guest
They're workers and soldiers. They're as much slaves as our paladins and treants are.
And the reason I'm objecting is because I think it's a big bunch of nonsense. We've been fighting and murdering for a year now and everything was fine, but now you've all gotten it in your heads that orcs are slaves and suddenly you're uncomfortable?
 

DeletedUser1345

Guest
Once you do start producing the orcs, their requirement is not very high. At least not in the 12th ring. Have not seen the 13th costs yet, but if the need for orcs started on ring 10, it does not seem like they will go up much. However for those lacking the provinces to open the new chapter, I understand why you are singing a different tune.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
the actual slave idea about orcs is more than resonable, you can bend it any way you like, but you dont "breed" humanoinds, and "trade" them away.(for province negotiations)

combined with no pay (all my workers are slaves in that sense), breeding and trading and no choice, that sounds a lot to me how the black slaves from the new world were treated for a long long time.
so refferring to the orcs as slaves is not that strange.
 

DeletedUser264

Guest
Keeping apes in zoos should be also considered as slavery, they are hominids. If using fictional orcs for trading provinces makes some people uncomfortable, how they can stand existence of zoos? :rolleyes:
This thread is becoming a bit weird. :D
 
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