Discussion Version 1.23 + Sorcerers & Dragons

[DeletedUser736]

For Marindor, on the topic of AI. I like the new AI better, thanks to the dev for this upgrade. But you asked on how it could be improve. Ranged unit should ALWAYS move out of range of a strike back when it is possible before attacking. There is so rarely a valid tactical reason not to do so, the AI should be programmed to move away from strike back 100% of the time.

 

[DeletedUser1665]

Bottom line getting back to basics when it comes to balancing here is what I am seeing when it comes to the different size cities (as far as a city building game goes). For small cities the workshops cost far too much and do not produce enough supply's. Smaller cities also have a very hard time in the tourneys (balance between cater vs. fight cost). For Large City's the residences produce far to many coins (which are usually dumped into the wholesaler if your already at the end of the KP tree).

Fighting is for people that enjoy both a building and fighting style of game, this particular game initially was advertized as a city building game where you don't have to worry about PvP fighting and it remains so even though the developers are concentrating on the fighting aspect of the game currently.

 

[DeletedUser736]

Fighting is for people that enjoy both a building and fighting style of game, this particular game initially was advertized as a city building game where you don't have to worry about PvP fighting and it remains so even though the developers are concentrating on the fighting aspect of the game currently.

I do not really know how this was advertised. I got early into the beta because I was playing Forge of Empire, another Inno game. I almost instantly abandoned Forge because fighting was getting completely ridiculous, and I could not foresee a future for this combat system. But I really liked, back the combat in Elvenar

At first I was very angry at the new battle system here. Mostly because I could not fight for provinces anymore. But I eventually changed my mind because I can now fight as much as I want in tournaments, and I realized that the new battle system is much better than the previous one.

Inno is still making corrections as we go, and I appreciate that. For instance, the recent change to tier 1 and 2 unit is great both for early players who get more powerful troops early on, but also to veterans who get new units that can at least hold their own a bit.

At some point, I think that some peoples fail to realize that of course, if you are not a hardcore player, you are simply not getting the best reward. For example, since I enjoy fighting manually, I do not get really far in the tournament. So the new tournament structure hurted me a bit. Do I complain? Not really. Peoples who want to invest more time get more than me seems logical. Many peoples in my fellowship (which is very very casual) don't even enter the tournament, and they still enjoy the game. You can play this without fighting. Are you going to get as much as the peoples who take the time to fight it out? Certainly not, and that seems fair to me.

Anyway. I guess I am in the minority on this forum who really enjoy the battle aspect of this game. Of course, there is better out there, as far as tactical combat goes. But for a small free game that I play in spare time, I think Inno is doing a good job.

 

[DeletedUser1548]

Nice new unwanted by players quest givers portraits.
If graphic designers are bored and need something to do I would say: please make level 6, 11, 16 graphics for all wonders and come back to having their big versions in the city landscape. I miss those two nice things, very much.

I don't get it why not every wonder change it's appearance... Every other building does. So far I thought it's about lack of time but now I am not so sure... @Marindor , could you explain?

 

[Sir Squirrel]

What I found with this tournament was, because our best troop to fight with was light melee (low HP) and most of the units we were fighting were ranged with higher initiative, my troops got bashed pretty good before I even got a turn and then the AI backed out of the way quicker than I could get to them. (with the exception of using the dogs). This caused way more losses than before, as the AI wouldn't have stayed out of range. A challenge is fine but the fights have to be winnable without huge losses or it really isn't much fun. I think what most wanted was smarter AI for our troops with auto battle, not smarter AI to fight against, they already get more troops and at level 6 in tourney's it is what? Double our troop size, double is almost unbeatable unless it is a tourney where heavy melee is our better troop for them fights as he can take more punishment.

 

[CrazyWizard]

@Dony
Well, space may not be your thingy, but it is a concern of mine.

But you are right about the battles being a main issue. This whole game is seeing almost nothing but battlerelated updates, and bloody fewthings about citybuilding or organising. And that for me at least was the main reason to even start playing.

@Ritsel
And yes, I'm really not happy about the discussion about the battles either, I'd much prefer it to be about something else, but somewhere the devs seem to have taken a turn to make it into a mostly battlegame. So it definitely is something to be discussed. Because it was NOT what the players came here for.
Asa the devs stop changing it into a battlegame and focus on the building aspect, the discussion about the battles will fade.

Last time I checked we get a whole new chapter of citybuilding and puzzling to make it all fit.
space: whats the challenge if you get a lot of new space with it, removes half the fun of the city build puzzel.

took met quite some time to figure out how I could get myself trough the new chapter without destroying half my city.

 

[Dhurrin]

@CrazyWizard
I've pretty much already reserved a space of 15x10 to get started.
However, if I need a space of 21x20 (which is what I expect after fiddling around a bit with the elvenarchitect) that's almost 3x that amount.
Now sure, I can free up some more space by selling some buildings, but not to that amount of space.

I tend to first sell of culture, I don't really need a high culturebonus, but that also brings down the mana and the amount of mana needed, especially for the first techs, is pretty huge. And my culturebonus never is very high. But I feel letting it get negative is against my principles in a citybuilding game.
So what else to sell...hmmm...
Residences? perhaps, but then I'll end up with negative pop, and that again just goes against my principles of building a city.
Workshops? Again, perhaps, but I do NOT cycle quests. I feel that's cheating, so if I sell workshops that means either having to sell factories, or not have them produce goods, or recruit a whole less. Not to mention that the requirements to unlock tech are very high in supplies,so I need the workshops.
Factories? I've seen your city, with something like 9 tier1, 8 tier2 and 7 tier3 factories, but I have far fewer (7, 4, 4) and the cost in goods are getting higher,so that's not a real option either.
I already sold quite some military buildings, since the fights have become pretty much impossible, rendering them useless for me.

So not much left to sell.

And yes, I know, I could start cycling quests. From your city its very obvious you are heavily reliant on doing so, since its impossible to have those factories produce and recruit the huge amounts of troops you use in tourneys with only 8 workshops, even if you reset them every 15 minutes. If that's your way of playing, that's fine by me, but I do not want to be forced to play that way.
And you have been either extremely lucky, or spent a good amount of money on getting a huge amount of the best daily buildings during the winter event, boosting both your pop and culture. Not everyone has been so lucky, I ended up with almost every time getting a bunch of relics I didn't need, so I only have a few of those buildings, meaning I need more regular residences And culture to keep my city going. Luck of the draw, but still a concern in how to use the available space.

I do not cycle quests, I do not want to have to rely on it. I want to be able to use the damn buildings for getting what I need, since that's what they are for, and that's what citybuilding is about for me. Not to mention I don't have the time or even the possibility to constantly log in to reset the workshops.

I do have a few of the magical residences and workshops, but do not plan on getting more. The changes are slowly forcing players to invest huge amounts of money and I resent that. Its not that I am against paying, I've spent quite a sum on elvenar, but the way the game is constricting players has made me decide I will no longer pay for it, because I do not want to pay for getting frustrated at every turn.

So yes, for me space IS an issue.

 

[Marindor]

Fighting is for people that enjoy both a building and fighting style of game, this particular game initially was advertized as a city building game where you don't have to worry about PvP fighting and it remains so even though the developers are concentrating on the fighting aspect of the game currently.

That's indeed a correct summary. Elvenar won't be about PVP, plundering each other etcetera. It is indeed a city builder game with a battle system for players who'd like to play more actively than average. Yes, it is true that lately a lot of effort has been put into the battle system to try to optimize it for these players so we understand that it seems as if battle is being the main thing, but that's not the way we're going with this game. There are a lot more aspects to this game (trading, guest races, helping each other etcetera) and battle is just one of them (besides negotiating/catering).

I don't get it why not every wonder change it's appearance... Every other building does. So far I thought it's about lack of time but now I am not so sure... @Marindor , could you explain?

Not yet, but I can certainly ask about it

 

[ophion]

That's indeed a correct summary. Elvenar won't be about PVP, plundering each other etcetera. It is indeed a city builder game with a battle system for players who'd like to play more actively than average. Yes, it is true that lately a lot of effort has been put into the battle system to try to optimize it for these players so we understand that it seems as if battle is being the main thing, but that's not the way we're going with this game. There are a lot more aspects to this game (trading, guest races, helping each other etcetera) and battle is just one of them (besides negotiating/catering).



Not yet, but I can certainly ask about it

If battle isn't the main thing in this game then I'd like to know why the tech tree has us having to spend hard earned forge points opening 4 new squad size upgrades, blossom mage promotion, sorcerers style armories, sorcerers training grounds, banshee promotion and yet another unwanted unit...Vallorian Guards. For a city building game, there sure is a lot of unwanted battle junk that is going to cost a great deal to unlock!!
In fact a whole third of the new tech tree is devoted to battle.

 

[CrazyWizard]

@CrazyWizard
I've pretty much already reserved a space of 15x10 to get started.
However, if I need a space of 21x20 (which is what I expect after fiddling around a bit with the elvenarchitect) that's almost 3x that amount.
Now sure, I can free up some more space by selling some buildings, but not to that amount of space.

@Dhurrin

I actually have 12 workshops but that doesnt matter, no one is telling you or forcing you to cycle quests.

While you prepared some space in advance (most likely the space from wood elf factories?) I saved up some expansions in advace and the result is about the same. (6 expansions)

with 15x10 you are about the correct start size, you do not start at max academy but the 7x7 academie,
While playing you wil unlock an reseach expansion giving you little more space and usually also unlock a provincie somewhere down the line.

This gives you all the space you need with some fiddling.

No one tells you to max out the amount of prodcution facilities, in fact I think it's totally unnessesary seeing results in the past.
You can either run for the finish, but the guy who walked behind you eventually also reaches the finish, but wasted a lot less energy and will be much less tired.

I also assume mana production will be a much more limiting factor and issue than collecting the required material.

 

[DeletedUser736]

What I found with this tournament was, because our best troop to fight with was light melee (low HP) and most of the units we were fighting were ranged with higher initiative, my troops got bashed pretty good before I even got a turn and then the AI backed out of the way quicker than I could get to them. (with the exception of using the dogs). This caused way more losses than before, as the AI wouldn't have stayed out of range. A challenge is fine but the fights have to be winnable without huge losses or it really isn't much fun. I think what most wanted was smarter AI for our troops with auto battle, not smarter AI to fight against, they already get more troops and at level 6 in tourney's it is what? Double our troop size, double is almost unbeatable unless it is a tourney where heavy melee is our better troop for them fights as he can take more punishment.

I did beat 2 5 star provinces. It is doable. I did'nt try on 6 star province because I rarely manage to get there due to the insane timer. And for the highest level, huge losses are to be expected.

 

[DeletedUser736]

If battle isn't the main thing in this game then I'd like to know why the tech tree has us having to spend hard earned forge points opening 4 new squad size upgrades, blossom mage promotion, sorcerers style armories, sorcerers training grounds, banshee promotion and yet another unwanted unit...Vallorian Guards. For a city building game, there sure is a lot of unwanted battle junk that is going to cost a great deal to unlock!!
In fact a whole third of the new tech tree is devoted to battle.

A third of battle related tech hardly make it the "main" focus. That leaves two third for non battle related tech.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I did beat 2 5 star provinces. It is doable. I did'nt try on 6 star province because I rarely manage to get there due to the insane timer. And for the highest level, huge losses are to be expected.

yeah if you fight this tiny little, the AI will be no problem for you, some of us fight 10, 11 of even 16 provinces
thats 16*6*8 = 768 fights you want us to fight manually every week so you can enjoy your 2 little provincies till only round 5 on manual mode with Smarty the AI thats hard to beat.

Sorry I want an AI that actually allows us to autocombat most battle some and pay off a few.
Not an AI that tells us to stop the moment autocombat fails because manual is to much of a pain to ever win.

I actually still do have a life you know.

 

[DeletedUser736]

yeah if you fight this tiny little, the AI will be no problem for you, some of us fight 10, 11 of even 16 provinces
thats 16*6*8 = 768 fights you want us to fight manually every week so you can enjoy your 2 little provincies till only round 5 on manual mode with Smarty the AI thats hard to beat.

Sorry I want an AI that actually allows us to autocombat most battle some and pay off a few.
Not an AI that tells us to stop the moment autocombat fails because manual is to much of a pain to ever win.

I actually still do have a life you know.

I do have a life too, which is exactly why I fight this "tiny" amount of province. You are basically asking Inno to get rewards from the game for no effort. I do not get much from the tournament and that is ok. I still enjoy the game.

 

[DeletedUser1513]

My feedback on this update:
- IA "improved" to make the last level absolute impossible to reach with fighting (even manually)
- even without this also in the lower levels there were less rune shards to earn, so basically the most interesting stuff disappeared!
- By making it harder also the rewards for the fellowship drastically got reduced. So compared to what we got before the fellowship change in the tournaments the benefits for the players at the end of teh tournament are again reduced.
- If you make IA smarter, then you shall reduce the number of opponents in the different levels.
- New era: you need to have a lot of space (meaning removal of supplies), while the requests of supplies is unbelievable high.
Inno is getting lazy and only want to slow down out progress, so we can hardly come forward.
Not the type of fun I'm expecting from a game like this!

 

[Dhurrin]

@Dhurrin

No one tells you to max out the amount of prodcution facilities, in fact I think it's totally unnessesary seeing results in the past.
You can either run for the finish, but the guy who walked behind you eventually also reaches the finish, but wasted a lot less energy and will be much less tired.

I also assume mana production will be a much more limiting factor and issue than collecting the required material.

A bit hard to believe coming from someone with as many factories as you have I think.
Anyway, I dont see this game as a race.
And yes, Ive 2 expansions from the provinces waiting, so I think I ll be ok in the end. But you and I got a good deal of expansions from fighting from the time it actually was possible to expand rapidly.
I seriously doubt that a new player will get to conquer 250-300 provinces before the end of the dwarves with the new system, so for them space will be even more of an issue ss they wont gain as many expansions from that as we did.

 

[DeletedUser1388]

It is indeed a city builder game with a battle system for players who'd like to play more actively than average. Yes, it is true that lately a lot of effort has been put into the battle system to try to optimize it for these players so we understand that it seems as if battle is being the main thing, but that's not the way we're going with this game. There are a lot more aspects to this game (trading, guest races, helping each other etcetera) and battle is just one of them (besides negotiating/catering).

I would agree with you Marindor, if in the past six month we had some building related development. (let's ignore at the moment "balancing" the trader). But we got just battle-related developments. I could even accept strengthening just this aspect of the game with forcing the builders to research the battle-techs if, and only if the tournament points would not be added to the general ranking. Is so hard to have an apart global ranking for tournament fighters and have the old style ranking just for building and province-conquering? Maybe this would generate some better motivation for different playerstyles.
Your thoughts?

 

[DeletedUser867]

Armories don't, Scroll manufactories don't, the wisdom square doesn't, the new biggest cultural building is 6x4.

Unless there's been a drastic change, buildings always grow DOWN to the left and/or right.

Stated programmatically, the anchor point for a building is alway the top corner regardless of it's size and, when you're in building mode, clicking anywhere in the building footprint will attach the top corner square to your cursor unless there's already enough room for it to grow.

 

[Lissona]

I also assume mana production will be a much more limiting factor and issue than collecting the required material.

That's what I was thinking, too. But after some calcs I think the limiting factor are the apprentices:
with Campus Lvl 4 you need about 15.000 apprentices for the Necros, Alchies, Arcanists.
When having 6 faculties Lvl 4 that is 6*4*6 + 6 = 150 apprentices per day. That means 100 days just to get them...

 

[Dhurrin]

That's what I was thinking, too. But after some calcs I think the limiting factor are the apprentices:
with Campus Lvl 4 you need about 15.000 apprentices for the Necros, Alchies, Arcanists.
When having 6 faculties Lvl 4 that is 6*4*6 + 6 = 150 apprentices per day. That means 100 days just to get them...

Well, they obviously want to slow the players down. Or have them use diamonds to finish early.
But when a game gets grounded down to the speed of an arthritic turtle they have created yet another good reason for players to quit. Those numbers are really disheartening