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Trader [Trader] Checkbox for Fellowship-only trades

Discussion in 'Archive: Ideas and Suggestions' started by NormaJeane, Nov 6, 2015.

?

Are you in favor of this idea?

Poll closed Jan 11, 2017.
  1. Yes

    44.4%
  2. No

    55.6%
  1. NormaJeane

    NormaJeane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Summary
    It would be nice to have a checkbox for fellowship-only trades, such as in the FoE-trader.

    Description
    Add a checkbox for fellowship-only trades, such as in the FoE-trader. With such a checkbox one can decide whether a certain trade will be visible for the whole market or for fellows only.

    Motivation
    Could enhance Fellowship-engagement and would prevent the global market from being "spammed" with trades that are put up to help smaller players.

    Possible downsides
    Could stimulate pushing within Fellowships.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2016
    Bobbykitty likes this.
  2. Philplessis

    Philplessis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    there is already a checkbox for trades placed by fellows;
    do you mean a checkbox to place trades only for the fellowship ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  3. Bobbykitty

    Bobbykitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    I like the idea of having trades that you put up only for your fellowship. I would also like to be able to put up trades only for people outside of the fellowship as well. (Sometimes our fellowship is drastically short on something and if I put up a trade for it, the kind people in my fellowship will try to fill it for me, when actually, I am just trying to get some from the neighborhood to share with my fellows). So, both kinds of options would be really nice.
     
    Tinto and bobbipiazza like this.
  4. Goryn

    Goryn
    Ex-Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    I don't like that. It will encourage people to use push accounts because no one can see their trades. The trade system is fine the way it is.
     
  5. Bobbykitty

    Bobbykitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    @Goryn, another moderator in another forum said that Elvenar doesn't lend itself to push accounts so it doesn't really matter. That is also why they don't care how many accounts you have. Do you disagree? What is the worst that could happen? I don't understand this whole push account thing, so I am seriously asking.
     
  6. Goryn

    Goryn
    Ex-Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Push accounts are still not allowed, it's in the game rules.

    I'll reverse the question. Why is it important to have a closed trader? What's wrong with the current one?
     
  7. Katwijk

    Katwijk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2015
    1. The beneficiary in the swap arrangement can post a 0 star trade.
    2. Maybe somebody else will be desperate enough to pick it up, rather than buying "wholesale"
    3. Which will save the benefactor the loss and bother of picking up the arranged trade.
     
  8. Bobbykitty

    Bobbykitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Why have a closed trader? Because there are times you want to give your fellows that are behind you a helping hand so in our fellowship at least, we put up very favorable trades so the "younger" players won't struggle so much with upgrades and things. We do it now by making sure that everyone is online at the same time, but that isn't always possible. It is a way we strengthen the fellowship and friendships and keep newer players here when they start to get bored. Plus, it is nice to be friendly. :)
     
    Tinto and Ritsel like this.
  9. Goryn

    Goryn
    Ex-Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    I can understand that, but i simply look at it in general. Not every player wants to be friendly and help players who are low leveled, or struggling to get goods. There are plenty of players who would use it to boost themselves, unseen in this case. This could cause problems with the balance of the game.
     
  10. Bobbykitty

    Bobbykitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    I absolutely agree that you don't players causing an imbalance. My only question is, if they want to cheat and boost themselves, then can't they do that anyway? I can think of a lot of ways to boost yourself that we have now if you want to do that. If transparency is the issue, I guess you could make it so other people can see the trades, they just can't accept them. You do have a rule that two people from the same IP address can't be in the same fellowship, right? Wouldn't that stop the problem you are speaking of? Also, in a lot of neighborhoods, there isn't anyone there to see the trades anyway, not that I know what they'd see that would trigger a fear of cheating.

    Idk....think about it. This might just be a nice feature. Unless there is something coming in the future that could make push accounts more of an issue and you are trying to preempt that. That makes sense too.
     
  11. NormaJeane

    NormaJeane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    That is indeed what I mean, it would supply a tool within a fellowship to help members to get their goods, especially those members who have lower ranking.

    Gosh Goryn... seems you are rather pessimistic? Imho it is the task of the Elvenar support team to discover push accounts - and unless I am poorly informed they have the tools to do so.
    I really do not see how my suggestion would encourage push. On the contrary actually...
    By having such a check button as I suggested, lower ranked playerd would not need a push account... they would be able to get a FAIR boost from their fellows!

    How this might unbalance the game I really do not see, please enlighten me...
    (In FoE it works just fine)
     
    Bobbykitty likes this.
  12. Katwijk

    Katwijk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2015
    Actually, in FoE pushing causes all sort of problems, and gigantic trades are a large part of it even though the quantities (rather than the values) are restricted to a range of 2:1 through 1:2. 100 Stones for 200 Nanoparticles anybody?

    In Elvenar the developers have paid a LOT of attention to the areas that are vulnerable to pushing. Limiting trades to a Like VALUE range of 4:1 through 1:4 is a large part of it, the star rating system, and making ALL trades visible to ALL parties are all important parts of the solution.

    While posting 3 star trades won't work for bootstrapping your lower ranked fellows, because the market makers will grab them, you can CERTAINLY agree to pick up exactly the reverse transfer if they post an equivalent 0 star trade. There's the further advantage that one of their neighbors might just be desperate enough to pick up their 0 star trade, and thereby avoid the Wholesaler, which will save you the bother of digging into your own pocket to clear the trade.
    • Socially - there's a Feel Good aspect to posting your excess inventory in a Fellowship exclusive venue but at some point, and it's not very far away, you're just operating a push account or slush fund.
    • Socially - it's uncomfortable for a lower ranked fellow to ask somebody to pick up a bad trade, because they're incurring an obligation, but perhaps they'd prefer for you to allow them to play the game at their own pace.
    There's the entire Queen Bee dynamic that we could discuss, and I'd take the position that your Fellowship will be MUCH better off if you don't create a bunch of dependency relationships.

    However - to address the point of this thread, I'm very much against PRIVATE markets of any sort, because they can so easily be abused. I'm happy with the current filter that allows you to suppress all of the trades except for those that were posted by your fellows, because that's just a way to "remember" who's in your fellowship, which you could do even without the filter.
     
  13. Bobbykitty

    Bobbykitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Wow.

    Funny, in my fellowship we post these all day long every day. In fact, even the lowest ranked players post 3 star trades. About the only time we don't post 3 star trades is when we are short of something which signals to the other members to come run over and give us a hand....when we are posting only the 2 star trades. If we are lucky and not everyone can do this, that is so terribly sad.

    I stand strong with NormaJeane on this. I agree with all she wrote. I don't get the pessimism. Maybe it is just that I am lucky to be in an amazing fellowship where we share tips with each other, give the shirt off our back to one another and are genuinely happy when we all do well. I don't really get why you want to simply be a total jerk and just take advantage of others and never help them. What is the point? So you can do what? Get some fake goods in a fake world from real people? Whatever.
     
    bobbipiazza likes this.
  14. NormaJeane

    NormaJeane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @ Katwijk:
    First of all: push accounts are fairly easy to detect by support :cool:
    Secondly: I for one would no mind one bit if trades would be restricted to the common trader values, either in general or for Fellowship-only trades.
    If one is not able to ask and/or offer more or less than the common trader value, push on trade would be extinct... oc this would mean a change in the surplus trading rate with those one has not discovered or are not in one's fellowship.
    But then: if Inno really wants to prevent push, the above might be a solution ;) after all: Elvenar is mostly a city-building game.
    On the other hand Inno could also introduce another ratio on trade for those one has not discovered/are not fellows.
    It all depends on the trade ratio.
    A ratio that is not worthwhile to be abused... well that might change things, don't you agree?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  15. Thordek

    Thordek Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Honestly, I don't understand why would be a problem if somebody wants to place offers just for his fellowship... Let it be... If there will not be enough partners to pick his goods, he will enlarge his offerings out of the fellowship. This would be a new possibility to the game, if somebody want to use it, will use it, or if not interested, will not use it. I don't think some extra functions will degrade the game and will cause any disadvantage...
     
    Bobbykitty and bobbipiazza like this.
  16. bobbipiazza

    bobbipiazza Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015

    *sigh* Pontificate and insult....again...

    ..but do let's discuss. How will following your advice make Bobbykitty's fellowship MUCH better off? (All things considered, that's a pretty big boast). First, though, you should tell us about our "dependent relationships", and define "Queen Bee dynamic" so we understand any derogatory intent.

    AND (don't you love the expressive caps?)...you entirely missed one of the primary reasons expressed for wanting the trading option: to HELP improve the game for the neighborhood players - you know, the ones who are constantly QUITTING. Yes, we do like to "feel good" by offering reasonable trades to our small neighbors - it encourages them during the interminable waiting periods, when 50 or 100 goods makes all the difference to them.
    Your "Socially..." point above is unbelievable - it's no wonder you and I tend to disagree so often. You seem to view your neighbors anti-socially: a trade request incurs an obligation, and you justify this with the passive-aggressive "they'd prefer you to allow them to play the game at their own pace." In total contrast, I've written a personal note to every player within my discovered world, welcoming them and offering to assist. I pick up every trade I see, pay the fees without comment, ask them to please notify me if they ever have any need, and receive delighted thank you messages every day. And I very much wish I could seed the Trader in a way they could see to help with their "Gain xxx goods" quests or special upgrades.
     
    Grace and Bobbykitty like this.
  17. Marindor

    Marindor
    Community Manager
    Elvenar Team

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    A poll has now been added to this idea :)
     
  18. Heffernan

    Heffernan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Neighbourhood trade isn't that good anyways, why add another wall to make it even worse. And...
    ... and stimulate pushing in general.
     
  19. Marindor

    Marindor
    Community Manager
    Elvenar Team

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Unfortunately this idea didn't meet it's minimum requirements of 20 voters and 80% of the voters in favor of the idea. Therefore we will now have to archive it :)
     

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