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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
Grounds of the Orc Strat & Vallorians?

I did that in the past, because they were more valuable than manufacturies for me. But producing troops that way is extremely inefficient (especially with brown bears an regular inflow of time boosters from the spire), scaling down troop requirements by not placing the extensions you would build them on will be way better in the future!
 

TomatoeHu

Well-Known Member
but I am still struggling to see any real benefit to levelling these techs. Are there any players planning to go and level these techs now? do they see any value in spending KP on these techs over say putting into their wonders? Perhaps the increased wonder difficulty might be why to put kp in tech tree over a wonder.

Some wonders squad size like DB, more bonus units in the SSS... but i will definitely wait to see what happens before taking any of the optional SS. Cant undo anything in this game, unless you're Inno

@Marindor Thank you for the updates :)
 

Dony

King of Bugs
I have recorded everything i did in tournament, but since there is no difference betweem rounds I have uploaded just round 3 up until province 52, where my Firefox crashed.
If you didnt had a chance to test it, you can see how it becoming more difficult with more provinces, how the enemy setup looks like, which maps are choosen and so on.
There is no audio, you can listen your own music on background.
Its uncut so you can see how it went for me with all mistakes and thinking.


Did you use a crazy amount of temporary military buildings or did they just destroyed the app ?
I have used 2 of each just because i had no clue what to expect, maybe it was overkill and it will be adjusted for next provinces i shall see

You're arguing for making calculations even more complex than they're today. This is rarely a good option, unless all other avenues are exhausted. They already are unable to explain the actual calculations to a regular player - not the actual mechanics, nor the incremental impacts. Calibration of more complex models becomes even more problematic, and even more holes will pop up, which is usually fixed with more parameters - and this turns into a death spiral of opaque complicated mess that no one (including developers) understands.
In all those years me and many others had made crazy amount of feedback which got into game in some form, if we didnt had said anything maybe nothing would have been changed. I am trying to point out different solutions and maybe one of them will work for them when playtesting themselves and TBH this is beta, they can test every tournament with something different if they want to, analyse data afterwards and go with setup which worked the best for both groups (devs and players)
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
I have a clarifying question: If you for some reason choose to teleport one of your AW to storage, does it retain it´s level?
I would think it obvios that it did. But from one of the previous posts it sounded like it didn´t. As far as I have seen nobody has corrected it.
I know from my own storage, that manufactories do. It would stand to good reason, that the same applied to AW. But from playing many different games..... Well you learn not to take anything for granted..... Many errors occur due to nobody thinking they could.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
Thx for the quick answer MinMax.
I think they should make it an option. Especially if AW levels are to make tournament encounters more difficult/expensive. Some AWs would go from "not worth the space" to "a block around the leg". And you´ll feel REALLY cheated, if you delete it, and sometime in the future they boost it, so it´s not "the block" anymore.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
So, why not show the difficulty?
Quick question. If I vehemently support Inno, do I get to be a moderator or CW. And do I get diamonds .
And where should I use those diamonds. Buy expansions?

And, “So, why not show the difficulty?”
cuz that’s bad. Beyond a few people in forum, people don’t check those and shouldn’t know it at a glance.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
I think they should make it an option. Especially if AW levels are to make tournament encounters more difficult/expensive. Some AWs would go from "not worth the space" to "a block around the leg". And you´ll feel REALLY cheated, if you delete it, and sometime in the future they boost it, so it´s not "the block" anymore.
I agree. They say they are not able due to the fact that all accrued KP in the Wonder would be lost, but I'm sure this is possible to overcome with some re-coding. I would also like the option to teleport Training Grounds and Merc Camp so that we can decide which one to leave in the city at any one time.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
@Enevhar Aldarion I read somewhere that upgrading AWs lead o additive effects whereas the detriments are multiplicative.
can you advise.
@MinMax Gamer is the math whiz when it comes to the Spire and tournament formulas, but from what I understand, each AW level adds a few troops to your starting Spire and tournament squad sizes, and then your squad size is multiplied by a modifier in each encounter to determine the enemy squad size. These multipliers stay the same for each encounter from week to week, no matter how small or large your squad size becomes. This means the enemy squad size grows when yours does, no matter how hard or easy the fight is otherwise.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
So I've always been a fighter in tournament, maybe not the smartest move but it grew on me. I loved fighting when i was able to manually fight and make sure my losses were minimal. That was the challenge for me back then. So then all our units were rebalanced, and that wasn't possible anymore. I adapted and accepted that now it was not longer about trying to minimalise losses but you had to accept you would loose a big part of your units no matter if you did it manually or not. At that point switching to catering wasn't really an option either because the fight costs were huge if you wanted to do many provinces.

So i adapted, and focussed on to levelling wonders that made my troops train faster/ give me free units. Because now losses were always there so there is no other way.

With this current rebalance it feels like i have wasted those last 3 years since the rebalance by levelling the wrong AW, it feels like i have no choice but to switch to catering now. If i switch to catering only i can trash: simia sapiens, flying academy, victory towers, needles of the tempest, shrooms, piramid, temple of the toads, dwarven bulwark. On top of that since i probably need a lot less hammers (I spend more then 1.5M hammers a day in barracks), these can go as well endless excavation, tome and prosperity tower. So thats 8 or 11 wonders at lvl 30 that can go: thats 240 or 330 wonder levels, surely that will make an impact.

If i would go full fighting only then i can trash: abyss, mountain halls, maze of dark matter, watchtower ruins, elvenar trade center, thats only 5 wonders that can go. The cost impact is much lower as such.

The thing is, you used to be able to mix and match, do some catering and do some fighting, now you force us to choose 1 strategy and stick with that.

Because wonders are all treated equally, fighters get a much bigger cost then caterers.
And then there are some wonders who are just nice to have but don't help you at all as a caterer or fighter, like blooming trader guild, thrones of high men, sunset tower, both lighthouses, etc

The thing is, since you need many many hammers when you want to be a competitive fighter, you also need some of the wonders that were intended for caterers, like excavation, prosperity tower and tome of secrets, making it so that you need a lot more wonders to fight in this game. So maybe removing hammer cost in barracks might tackle this a little also.
You might have noticed that most of the complainers are people who usually fight, and those who are happy about this change are people who hardly put effort in tournament before and/or are usually caterers.

This balance favors caterers so much more now, so maybe you can understand where the rage of some come from, if they worked years to tackle the last unit re-balancing, only to find out, they are screwed now.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Why is everybody so sure about that ?

Casuals are indeed also buying diamonds but for a different reason.
They just want a zoo in there city so marlo the turtle ect.

On the other hand I am pretty sure that the "hardcore" players have a bigger average Roi per player. yet that doesnt mean they are the biggest source of income, but they certainly are a good portion of it.
.
 

DeepTerminal

Active Member
Is it looking like full catering is back on the table as an option now? Is it feasible for mid- to end-game players to get rid of all military AWs and go full catering for spire and tourney?
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
@MinMax Gamer is the math whiz when it comes to the Spire and tournament formulas, but from what I understand, each AW level adds a few troops to your starting Spire and tournament squad sizes, and then your squad size is multiplied by a modifier in each encounter to determine the enemy squad size. These multipliers stay the same for each encounter from week to week, no matter how small or large your squad size becomes. This means the enemy squad size grows when yours does, no matter how hard or easy the fight is otherwise.
I am talking about my beginning squad size only.
Is the aw upgrade a multiplication factor on the equation. And is it >1
And thanks. Really appreciate you taking time to find the decipher the actual cost equation and explaining to me.
I’m also interested to know cumulative catering costs for going 30 to 40 provinces all 5 rounds. For an average chapter 16 city with say 300 aw levels. And 10 premium expansions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

baypen

Well-Known Member
On the other hand I am pretty sure that the "hardcore" players have a bigger average Roi per player. yet that doesnt mean they are the biggest source of income, but they certainly are a good portion of it.
If there is one thing in this game, what I am really absolutly sure about it, is the fact, that Inno watches exactly every cent that is spent. That´s clear, because that´s the reason why people run a business, they wanna earn money - of course, that´s absolutely ok.
So,for sure, they have a reason why now they seem to be more interested in "average players" than in "hardcore" (I personally hate this word) players. Maybe we are wrong, if we think, that the part that these "hardcore" players spend at the end of the day is really the important part. Maybe the mass of average players is more effective and is therefor now in the focus to be motivated.
Somehow I can understand that, it´s a business as we all know.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Those optional ss upgrades actually don't make much difference any more. With the time to scout, it would be easier to battle a map province every 4-6 days, but if you can already battle manually with hardly any losses, what was the gain?

And then with a higher squad size AW that give military units will give a few more units.

But this has a tremendous impact on the entire server, including my development.

As long as optional research is not counted in the new system, it shouldn't affect the tournament. I think the work for a best fit equation for the spire showed they didn't count.

Just a quick question - since the player squad size is no longer tied to SSU, does that mean that having optional SSUs have absolutely no effect on tournament difficulty? If I understand the new system correctly, your research, expansion, etc. determine your initial squad size, and the enemy squad size is always a certain ratio to your squad size, which means your "normal squad size" is completely irrelevant to the tournament.

Is this correct? Does this mean that optional SSU upgrades will only help with world map encounters, but will neither help nor harm spire and tourney?
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
What boosts were you using?
I have recorded everything i did in tournament, but since there is no difference betweem rounds I have uploaded just round 3 up until province 52, where my Firefox crashed.
If you didnt had a chance to test it, you can see how it becoming more difficult with more provinces, how the enemy setup looks like, which maps are choosen and so on.
There is no audio, you can listen your own music on background.
Its uncut so you can see how it went for me with all mistakes and thinking.



I have used 2 of each just because i had no clue what to expect, maybe it was overkill and it will be adjusted for next provinces i shall see


In all those years me and many others had made crazy amount of feedback which got into game in some form, if we didnt had said anything maybe nothing would have been changed. I am trying to point out different solutions and maybe one of them will work for them when playtesting themselves and TBH this is beta, they can test every tournament with something different if they want to, analyse data afterwards and go with setup which worked the best for both groups (devs and players)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
If there is one thing in this game, what I am really absolutly sure about it, is the fact, that Inno watches exactly every cent that is spent. That´s clear, because that´s the reason why people run a business, they wanna earn money - of course, that´s absolutely ok.
So,for sure, they have a reason why now they seem to be more interested in "average players" than in "hardcore" (I personally hate this word) players. Maybe we are wrong, if we think, that the part that these "hardcore" players spend at the end of the day is really the important part. Maybe the mass of average players is more effective and is therefor now in the focus to be motivated.
Somehow I can understand that, it´s a business as we all know.

1 Thing I am sure at elvenar (not the other inno-games games) and that is they do not look at the general mass. in general they try to cater to the 1%, if they would have really targeted the mass they would already have added options for catering to them.

I have no clue why they are so focussed on that 1%, sometimes I have the idea they went there as a self fulfilling prophecy (if you target just those they eventually become your main source of income)
If they targetted the masses they would have made other choices in the past

Ex: outpost(different name at that time) was introduced at 5 euro, this was a giant succes, if you cater to the masses you look at, ok succes how can we copy this succes. what can we introduce in this price bracket to get more income.
Elvenar's response? they doubled the price.

This is what I believe there biggest failure. they always try to find the maximum possible price of every singe thing they add to the game in instead of diversifying there portfolio to improve income. if you target the masses you come up with a diverse portfolio so there are constant things people like to buy in each category.
I believe things went wrong when they decided that expansions should be many times more expensive. this was most likely in income success and since then everything was designed about maximising profit per item instead of profit in general.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
How? How does another player not having to spend a week building an old portal effect you in any way?
It's not other players effect me. It's me myself would be forced to spend some useful resource instead of already prepared guest race goods.
 
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