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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

aHexerl

New Member
In addition to what has already been written, it bothers me that the provinces are so small on the world map and do not stand out at all. If someone does not see so well, they have to be on the tournament list and out again, which is tedious!

sry is google translate i hope you can understand ;)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I tinkered with my gradual difficulty increase proposal. I had each level increase by 7.5% and changed that to 10%.
1594912866894.png

So, with this proposal, the first 15 provinces of level 1 are easier. However, these provinces have always been very easy with few losses for most players. It really makes very little difference to the resources of advanced players and does make a difference for players that struggle. From province 16 on it is more difficult. Players that are used to going out long can probably still do so, but it will be an increasing challenge.

For level 2 twenty of the provinces are easier. It is more expensive to go out all the way but players still can. Again, for advanced players, having those first 20 provinces easier makes little difference to the resources they had been using, but this does help the more challenged players.

For level 3 the first 25 provinces are easier, but by province 40 it is like the old level 4. With the old tournament for advanced players the troop size was small enough that losses in the first 10 provinces was not that much of a hit, even if you lost everything and had to try a different approach. So this is not as much of a give to strong players as it appears because of the increasing troop size. This is a proposal to smooth out the increased difficulty to actually achieve greater game enjoyment and competition.

For level 4 the first 30 provinces are easier, level 5 the first 35 provinces are easier and level 6 the first 40 provinces are easier. I think people used to being able to go out 60-80 provinces are going to be able to go out 50 provinces, but are then going to question much stronger about going further and how to go further.

If you actually consider arithmetic sequences and series, you have to look at the formulas involved to properly assess the true difference in difficulty, so you have these formulas:

1594914655968.png
1594914675492.png


So the common difference for troop size "d" is 1. I think the player's starting troop size is the same for all levels, it is just the enemy's troop size that increases to make the increased difficulty.

So, the sum of player troops for the first 15 provinces is S(15)= 120 times the player's base. So for 15 provinces easier, it is 120 times the player's base that has easier battles. So, it isn't 15 more provinces and that "give" is equal, it is 6 to 7 provinces. It is the provinces which S(n)=240 that an additional 120 troops have battled at harder provinces.

S(n)=n(a1 + (a1 + (n-1)d))/2 d=1 a1=1
S(n)=n(1 + (1 + (n-1)))/2
S(n)=n(n+1)/2
240=n(n+1)/2
480=n(n+1)
n^2 + n - 480 = 0
n is between 21 and 22, so by province 22 difficulty has broken even for level 1 with my proposal, and it is far closer to province 21 than 22. And, that doesn't even take into account that all of the competitive players know not to do the squad size upgrades, so chances are with my proposal, this is an over estimate of the where each province is more difficult.

For my proposal for level 2 giving 20 easier provinces, S(20)= 210. S(n)=420 is where troop resources equalize. S(28)=406 and S(29)=435 so the break even on level 2 with my proposal is province 29.

For level 3 with 25 easier provinces S(25)= 325. S(n)=650 is the break even. S(35)=630, S(36)=666, so for level 3 province 36 is the break even.

For level 4 with 30 easier provinces S(30)=465. S(n)= 930 is the break even. S(43)=946, so province 43 is the break even for level 4.

For level 5 with 35 easier provinces S(35)=630 so S(n)=1260 is the break even. S(50)=1275, so province 50 is the break even.

For level 6, with 40 easier provinces S(40)=820 so S(n)=1640 for the break even. S(57)=1653, so the break even is province 57 for level 6.

So because the troop requirement is increasing with each province, the break even on difficult is far earlier than it appears when troop commitment only is considered.

So, for after 50 provinces, the challenge with my proposal is much greater overall, 40% more difficult for level 1, 30% for level 2, 22% for level 3, 15% for level 4, 10% for level 5, and 6% for level 6. I mostly skip higher provinces at level 6 on live, and they have most been done for competition reasons. This chart shows how it plays out for the competitive players and it actually spreads the ability out. I went out 64 provinces to all 6 levels on live this week with 6 military boosts and a polished bird and I know that I could not do that with this proposal, but it would actually create an environment of competition, fun and not totally slaughter us.
1594913822881.png
 

Burger Meister Meister

Well-Known Member
New Tournament Feedback

On Beta Server I can only access 4 provinces for the tournament so that leaves me in the "green" for most encounters so this feedback would be biased towards a newer player.

Fewer Encounters per Province
I like the single encounter format as I felt on my Live Server account (16 provinces = 64 encounters per day) was quite tedious to complete all of the encounters. Although with only 4 provinces the experience is over quickly and I have to wait until the next day to continue.

Further Adjustments
Linking cost / difficulty to City progress rather than Squad size is an excellent change. I think that this is the way it should have been from the beginning. Squad size updates are optional and should not be a determining factor as to the difficulty of the encounter. If you choose to upgrade your squad size then you should be able to do better in battle, not have the battle become more difficult. If nothing else comes out of the new tournament format I think that at least this change should be propagated to all encounters, not just tournament.

Catering
I favor battle more than catering so I can't really comment on this yet.

Battle - Enemy always 5 squads
I don't think that this change was necessary. I liked the random sizes, sometimes the enemy was only two, sometimes it was 8. I had no difficulty determining the enemies strength. You just have to think about it a little more.

Battle - Random enemy selection
I don't like this change. I find it actually makes it harder to select my troops.

Battle - Difficulty
As I said earlier I can only access 4 tournament provinces so I am still in the "green" zone of the chart so can't really comment on this yet.

Bonus Chests
I think that this is a great idea for Fellowships that have been solving the 10 chests on a consistent basis. But, being part of a small and relatively new fellowship we have never been able to get anywhere near this far so I can't comment from experience but think it is a good idea.

Thanks,
BMMB
 

DeletedUser2836

Guest
As a Chapter 9 perma-stationed tournament player, I was looking forward to see if I won the lottery with these changes or not. But if a commentor before didn't lie about being in the Woodelves and getting asked 5700 orcs to Cater a 2nd round-32th province, then there is not even the slightest chance of this being a good thing for me. With armories that produce 360 orcs per 12 hours, I would need like 45 Orc Ships from the last event to try to stay as competitive as before. Anyway I will keep playing, it's not like I know a better game to play right now, but it will be quite dissapointing being used to do high scores every week and being precluded overnight from maintaining that pulse by any means. I can live with changes that make things harder than before, with changes that 'provide a challenge'. But 'providing a challenge' is not the same as making virtually impossible to play like you got used to.
 
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Asween

Well-Known Member
i do not think normal 10 chests should be made harder. veterans or not veterans, people have made strategies, adjusted game play and turning things upside down is no good. on the other hand, additional chests can be as hard to achieve as you want, thats just additional challenge and additional fun. about 1 or 4 encounters i not have opinion, that can be one way or another, no difference to me.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
As a perma-stagnated Chapter 9 tournament player in live server, I was looking forward to see if I won the lottery with these changes or not. But if a commentor before didn't lie about being in the Woodelves and getting asked 5700 orcs to Cater a 2nd round-32th province, then there is not even a slightly chance of this being a good thing for me.

Just to point out that with the new system, it will be almost impossible, or very expensive, for anyone in any chapter to go to the 2nd star of the 32nd province. There is no more doing the 1st and 2nd star in as many provinces as you can. Players that do that now on Live will be lucky to get past the 2nd star of the 20th province.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Well, I did that here on beta, but I burned 1/3rd of troops and maybe 10-12 days of ALL of my production, so when you add in need resources for spire and opening new provinces, etc., well, I am totally in the hole. For just doing 2 levels, and the easier two levels, I shouldn't have used more than about 1.5 days worth of resources. So, I think saying going out 44 provinces was in the range of 8-10 times more difficult. Absolutely NOT sustainable.

Just to point out that with the new system, it will be almost impossible, or very expensive, for anyone in any chapter to go to the 2nd star of the 32nd province. There is no more doing the 1st and 2nd star in as many provinces as you can. Players that do that now on Live will be lucky to get past the 2nd star of the 20th province.
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
So about orcs I did the math: Chance to get orcs as a requirement in new system is 23% (3/13). Also 1 instead of 4 encounters. So you need to divide the orc costs of new system by 17,33 if you want to compare with old system.
 

Thann

New Member
Good evening,

I won't understand formulas or tables, I just can't do it.

It is undeniable that the expenditure of troops has increased compared to before, you will also have reduced the missions on the single province from 4 to 1, but with the increase in the number of provinces the value of lost troops grows at a rate that in the past did not exist.
In addition, the tournament steps have been increased, before the last one was at 8000, now we see a second page with steps: 10000, 11000, 12000, 13000, 14000, 15000, 16000, 17000, 18000.
I would like to understand if any of the programmers think that we can get there seriously or just do what they tell them to do, I could understand the steps up to 14000/15000 but with the old system.

You don't need a genius to understand what the goal of this modification is. To play at high levels, the player must spend real money that becomes diamonds, there will certainly be players willing to do it, I am not one of them.
Spending money would also be acceptable on a market server, but this is a beta server, which means that if Innogames needs to be reset tomorrow, it will be done without much trouble.

If anyone hopes that they go back in the programming of the combat system, he first becomes Pope. They will never do it, rather some small changes here and there, but the substance will remain.
I have already seen it happen in Grepolis, both as a player and as a game supporter, the way of thinking is always the same, here even more marked than in Grepolis, the player must spend as much as possible through the premium system, the company needs to earn .

Had you made any other basic changes in conjunction with this change, perhaps it would have made more sense to balance the system. For example, allowing all military buildings to be able to produce troops at the same time, speeding up the base speed of buildings in troop production, giving ancient wonders superior combat bonuses with jumps not from 1%, but from 2% or 3 %, with the same consumption of kp.

Reading this thread, many server players are writing to you that they are crazy changes, I dare not imagine what will happen when you put them on the national markets, but I don't think it affects who manages the development of the game, as tickets and forums do not look at them , at most will read the reports from the CoMa of the various markets.

Already the expansions of the city given with the dropper, only by buying them can the city be enlarged in reasonable times, now fighting on the external map is useless, if not for some sporadic mission.
It becomes almost better to fight in the Spire.
With this system, those who do not spend, will make a tournament a month if it goes well, they will get bored of the game and gradually leave it.
Obviously in Hamburg they are sure that there are those players willing to spend and that they are sufficient to make the servers stand up.
 

PrimroseSylvia

Well-Known Member
About reducing time & click, big thumbs-up! It's encouraging me to do manual fight, because I'm a very lazy player and always do auto (I know that it's not the cheapest way to do a tournament, but I get bored and feel like wasting time).
About destroing tournament, well, I don't agree in an absolute way.
My middle players are happy about this change, and actually we're going to get 9th chest (my fs rarely do it); one of my fellow, in orc chapter, has done more than 2k points in 3 days without big issues, and it's the first time she does more than 1500 points (and in 5 days).
So, while I agree that some modifications will be welcomed, to me and my fellows this has been more positive than negative.
Yeah, maybe because we're casual players, but these are my 5 cents.

Oh, and I use time reducers in my live city, because I'm lazy and don't want to set alarms, I work and have family and friends too (obviously I don't have Time Warp being in the middle of Constructs, and my Polar Bear is not fully evolved), and never spent more the 30h instants, that I easily gain in Spire (or using spell fragments from Spire to craft the in MA).
 

Deleted User - 87679

Guest
For the developers: The concept of 1 click is a very nice idea as in my regular world I am consistently doing greater than 20 provinces. The nice thing to note was that in the old system you had level 20 be a 1 to 1 ratio and as the levels increased the configuration of troops changed to increase the difficulty. We were able to develop strategies based on the types of troops we were to face, but even at level 4 on province 1 (new system) you are utilizing 5 different types of troops (my beta is currently lvl 2). I don't think the increase in troops is a concern if they actually represented fair play. I have gotten in the habit of catering in the spire & fighting in the tourneys. If your troops are going to switch to the spire format, why would I ever want to use troops anymore?
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
For those who only check this thread, I have just added a full tournament model to my data thread - this includes base squad size calculation. This is highly speculative at the moment as there is not much data (to say the least). Try it out on your own data, and let me know if that worked for you (or not).
 

Deleted User - 79535

Guest
I think the biggest benefit to this new tournament set up is for fellowships and casual players. The new set up means that the tournament takes much less time to play. Casual players will only need to commit 15 minutes a week to get a fair amount of awards and contribute a significant amount to their fellowship. For fellowships this should translate into much higher participation and so more rewards. The fellowship I am a member of is not a 10 chest fellowship. In this tournament 23 of our members are participating. With 2 days to go 10 players are already over 500 points.

I very much like the change in the scaling. Having to pass over troop upgrades to make the tournament more playable made expansion difficult. I would like to know if increasing your squad size is now a slight advantage in the tournament? This would explain some player experience with the tournament's difficulty increasing too quickly. This would make the biggest difference for players that score the highest in the tournaments and if this is the case it may be good to find a way to provide a way to transition. You might introduce an instant enchantment that gave a squad size boost only in tournaments and maybe even only for one province for say 24 hours. Long term completing the researches would be the most benefit but it would make an interesting new strategy item.

Most of the negative comments have come from users who regularly score well over 1,000 points in the tournament. A majority of players in the past have only scored around 500 point and the new set up will be a huge boon for them. I think players should reserve judgement on the tournament until the outcome. I think most fellowships will find they achieve more than they did in the past because of the contribution of players that did not join in the tournament in the past.

I do not think completely randomizing the is a great idea. I think being able to prepare for a tournament is fun and being able to chose which tournaments you do a push on because of what you are best at is a good thing.
 

DeletedUser2300

Guest
but why it's also assumes that all the players are harcore and ready to build their life schedule aroung the game

As a "hardcore" player, scoring minimal 8k-18k depending on how lazy or energize I feel, even I do not build my time around the game...I use a timewarp that dropped my wait time between tournaments to 7 hours. If I didn't have my timewarp, I would be very disgusted right now by the suggestions of the moderators here.

I mean really? Your solution is that 25 members should do 6 rounds to 6? Before my timewarp, I had to make sure to do my tournament as early as 5 am (no later!) in order to fit it in with the rest of my day. I am sorry @Konys but this game lacks the humph to make anyone do that on a regular basis and at the way its going, many won't even bother to time their timewarp either. Like, it is NOT feasible. And you cannot just say well if you are not willing to put in the effort, you can't get the reward. No no no, that is not how this works.
 

DeletedUser1953

Guest
Thanks to minmax; In the past for tournaments, we need produce the same T1/T2/T3, if Inno keeps the new ratio, it seems we need to sell 50% of T3 and 30% of T2 and replaces by armories ^^
 

Deleted User - 86059

Guest
Again please remember English only in this forum


Je suis peut-être allé un peu loin, mais voici à quoi ça ressemble quand je donne des nouvelles de l'évolution des tournois sur ma confrérie

Translation =


I may have gone a bit far, but this is what it looks like when I give news about the evolution of tournaments on my brotherhood
 

Steelhail

Member
I really wish INNO just 1.kept the basic difficulty the same as it had been, and 2.based the difficulty purely on tech/chapter level. But since that probably won’t happen, I’m brainstorming some compromises that might help mitigate the demoralization for many of us, particularly at the loss of kps. Some of these compromise ideas could be combined (like #1 and #3, or #2 and #3).

Compromise reward idea #1. For provinces 10+, let players select a reward from a range of options. If you told me I could pick 5 kp instead of a PoP in round #1 of province 10-20, that would mitigate things. The drawback is coding might be trickier, and INNO might get nervous with lopsided player freedom (“kp every time, baby!”).

Compromise reward idea #2. It seems relatively easy coding-wise to modify tournament rewards 10+ with pre-set rewards of what players like most. Perhaps have all the first rounds of provinces 10+ begin with 5 kp instead of PoP.

Compromise reward idea #3: Increase the reward slightly as players go deeper. For example, 5 kp each for the first round of provinces 10-12, 6 kp for the first round of provinces 13-15, etc. Outlier players would still earn a lot less than they used to, but psychologically, getting 8 kp in round 1 of province 20 might feel a little better. Right now, province 20 just feels unequivocally bad, based on others' feedback.
 
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