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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Just a thought. Since there is a confirmed bug affecting new / small cities because the squad sizes for tourney are being calculated incorrectly is it possible that this bug is also affecting larger more advanced cities as well in turn throwing off the difficulty?
No, the bug is that tournament allows squads of <0.2 units rounded up to 1, irrelevant for large cities.
 

Deleted User - 87976

Guest
I'm wondering, is it really necessary to add the indirect nerf of the AWs with this update? It's not like the effect of the most of them is so huge that they needed any nerfing, especially considering the amount of time and effort that is required to get even one AW to a decent level. And what was the point of adding an easy way to buy all the required KP if this now becomes so much more questionable investment? At least before it was obvious that after the upgrade your units will hit a bit stronger or will have a bit more health and it will reduce the losses. And now they will become stronger, but you will be using more units each fight, so it may easily result in even more losses instead.
 
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ErestorX

Well-Known Member
I can not add practical experience, since I registered only today. But on live I am focussing on getting all WP out of my tournament provinces (about 82 provinces on average). Therefore this is a really interesting topic for me and I have followed it closely.

I agree that reducing the number of encounters and the cost of negotiating is definitely reasonable. I also believe that increasing the size of enemy troops relative to my own with increasing province numbers is definitely a good idea. Even the increase of 1% per province for those provinces higher than 33 (in round 1) seems to be in the right ballpark. It becomes significantly harder but not to an extent where fighting manually becomes impossible. Since the advent of the firephoenix the tournament has been way too easy, this change should be enough to fix this.

While I like the general direction of the changes, I doubt that the balancing is already in line with the goal @Marindor stated in the announcement:

"However, one key difference is that we want to ensure that every progression factor will still bring you more in benefits, than it would "cost" you in terms of added costs in the Tournaments."

If the assumption that the troop size is calculated in the same way as in the spire is correct, there are several problems. The most important one is the exponential increase with every completed research. While the position in the research tree should be the most important factor for calculating troop size, it seems obvious that an exponential function is too much.

Either the next chapters are similar to chapter 16, which means upgrade of barracks and merc camp but not much else in chapter 17. In this case the optimal strategy for me would have been to stop research before chapter 16. Or Inno has a nice surprise like new stronger troops that gives enough incentive to progress further in the research tree. In this case the current situation that the strongest tournament players can play all their provinces without problem will probably be reached again in a few chapters despite this change.

The most obvious problem is the use of the number of wonder levels to calculate troop size. More than 1/3 of all wonders do not give me more benefits than they will cost me in the tournaments, therefore I will never built them. Furthermore there are few wonders worth building past 30 or 31. Therefore in my case the playing time I have left before I have filled all usefull wonder levels is cut significantly although the amount of WP I can generate every week will be much lower than before.

Concerning expansions I expect that there will be a problem as well. I can squeeze everything related to troop production, all my wonders and a few manufacturies for my basic needs into about half my space. For the remaining space I have the choice between troop producing buildings which are not effective enough to overcome the cost of the additional space they use and the production of everything used to cater. My best guess is, that the additional provinces I get out of this in the tournament are fewer than those I can't fight anymore because of the increased troop size. Part of the problem is, that because of all my military wonder levels catering is more than twice as expensive as it would be without those wonders whereas fighting is extremely efficient. But I would need to play a few tournaments to be sure about this one. A much easier approach that would avoid the problem that some players might wish to get rid of half of their expansions would be to replace number of expansions with something simple like a multiple of the number of the current chapter.
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
I am waiting for an adjustment and paused the tourney, I don't believe they tested the changes before that is what beta is for. In my relatively modest beta city (AWs and expansions), with 2 fire phoenixes fed, 1 mage multiplier, 1 enlightened light range and 3 unleashed unit, my troops were slaughtered quite early on so some change must be done, the game is over if not. So I am waiting :)
 

Artemis84

Member
Okay ... seems that this is majorly a hardcore player thread ... but maybe some cents from a casual player in the sorcerers chapter.
For me, playing the Tournament feels way smoother/cheaper. It was faster than before and it felt effortless - even though I fought with a city that isn't focused on battle! (did my usual 9 Provinces - currently all 2 stars)

When I read that People do 60-80 Provinces in a Tourney I am just .... I dunno, surprised? Speechless? In disbelieve?

How can those many Provinces be any fun? Why would someone do that? (Guess the answer is: a bunch of Kps :p )
And honestly, I can't imagine that Inno had players in mind, that do 80 provinces when they introduced Tournaments ...
 

Deleted User - 88552

Guest
From what i've tested, I can honestly tell you that my troops have been getting blown out. Here's an example of a 2-star elixir province I faced:
TSS 4 vs their 2; 3 Ranged/ 2 HR, combat it with 5 x4 archers. This fight favors me (with AW + Phoenix buffs). None in this city though.

All dead, winning combo would be 3 x4 archers and 2 x2 Paladins. But a new player won't know this nor will they even bother with 2-star provinces during a tournament. The difficulty curve remains... yeah they can cater the rest of their Elvenar career and then what? Scramble and stress for supplies/coins and eventually quit? You're going to have really hold their hands if all these changes are to help newbies.
 
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FieryArien

Well-Known Member
How is this change going to affect fellowships that do the 10 chests push once in each cycle - during the steel tournament? It seems to me that casual fellowships with limited number of tournament players loose the occasional opportunity to win the blueprint. Are there such fellowships on beta? How do you see the changes?? Can you share your feedback, please?

Our fellowship on EN server reaches 5-6 chests each week with VERY uneven distribution of points between players. That’s no complaint, that’s how this relaxed fellowship works. But that won’t be possible anymore, will it? To illustrate the situation, here are the points individual players got:
- Last tourney shown on elvenstats: 11857 total points. Players: 4938, 2160, 888, 840, 674, 462, 372, 348, 300, 270, etc.
- Last steel tourney: 41194 total points. Players: 12690, 10290, 8640, 3558, 1272, 780, 576, 372, 312, 285, etc.

I don’t actually know how common such fellowships are. Maybe we are real outliners. ;-) However, the new tournament will definitely take away blueprints from us.

EDIT: just slight format change
 
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T6583

Active Member
@Artemis84 if the players doing 80 providences was the issue for Inno they could have just capped it at say 50 providences. They've capped the number of expansions you can get from scouting they can just no longer offer any providences in tourney past that cap. I have no idea how many providences that would be. Howver it's not just the players doing 80 providences that will be hurt. It's also the ones doing 20 proviences to 2 stars. As already mention the amount of KP some players got (myself included on Live) may be part of the issue. I myself ramped up my tourney from 20 5 star proviences to 30 5 star providences because of the KP requirements for tech research in Ch. 16. I also think part of the issue is the number of complaints by some people who feel that people with multiples of certain buildings (Phoenixes, Bears) are the problem. Similar to when required leveled workshops / factories were required for that one event in the fall, which I feel was do to complaints and clearly wasn't the right move. They've found a way to fix that now with the events as far as I'm concerned that addressed those complaints. I'm personally not sure yet if these changes are a good things or not. I for one do not like how troop selections are done in the spire when it comes to the enemy troops and so far don't care for that particular change in tourney. I rather have an idea of which troops to focus on during any given week. This change will take me a bit to get used to if it remains.
 

slide

Well-Known Member
Okay ... seems that this is majorly a hardcore player thread ... but maybe some cents from a casual player in the sorcerers chapter.
For me, playing the Tournament feels way smoother/cheaper. It was faster than before and it felt effortless - even though I fought with a city that isn't focused on battle! (did my usual 9 Provinces - currently all 2 stars)

When I read that People do 60-80 Provinces in a Tourney I am just .... I dunno, surprised? Speechless? In disbelieve?

How can those many Provinces be any fun? Why would someone do that? (Guess the answer is: a bunch of Kps :p )
And honestly, I can't imagine that Inno had players in mind, that do 80 provinces when they introduced Tournaments ...
The problem there is that although Inno may not have thought far enough down the line that giving people the option of spending money on both fire phoenix and brown bear multiples would give people the ability to do 80+ provinces this has been the result. Now they want to reduce the provinces those people can clear but everybody else who has 1 or even none of them have been caught in the same net.

I have 0 fire phoenix (due to not being in a place where I could log in for the event) and 1 brown bear, there are insufficient expiring battle buildings in the MA for me to have a big stock, i.e. more than 2 of each and have had just ONE Dwarven Armour in the spire since it started. I cleared just 8 provinces yesterday and then gave up, today I've managed to get a bit further but the cost is just far too high when my troops die regardless of combination I put up and I have to pay 5k orcs when I have just 25k in stock.
 

Ursus Major

Well-Known Member
Some of your wrote
When I read that People do 60-80 Provinces in a Tourney I am just .... I dunno, surprised? Speechless? In disbelieve?

How can those many Provinces be any fun? Why would someone do that? (Guess the answer is: a bunch of Kps :p )
And honestly, I can't imagine that Inno had players in mind, that do 80 provinces when they introduced Tournaments ...

don't forget please that on the live we are many payer how have finish scouting provinces. So we can't get any more KP by the normaly province. And now we will not be able to have some from the tournaments, either for our marvels or for the tree of technology. That means that we disadvantage here again.
So the old players will be tired of the adventures where we get quite nothing on rewards for the amount of effort. The building of the event aren't interesting enough, and now the tournament will cost an eye !
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
Our fellowship on EN server reaches 5-6 chests each week with VERY uneven distribution of points between players. That’s no complaint, that’s how this relaxed fellowship works. But that won’t be possible anymore, will it? To illustrate the situation, here are the points individual players got:
- Last tourney shown on elvenstats: 11857 total points. Players: 4938, 2160, 888, 840, 674, 462, 372, 348, 300, 270, etc.
- Last steel tourney: 41194 total points. Players: 12690, 10290, 8640, 3558, 1272, 780, 576, 372, 312, 285, etc.

I don’t actually know how common such fellowships are. Maybe we are real outliners. ;-) However, the new tournament will definitely take away blueprints from us.
No, this is quite common and is now a hot topic for those wide group of fellowships who are on the cusp of tournament success, but not quite there. For a team who can get 40k once every four weeks it becomes much more difficult to play that strategy. You would have to spend four weeks saving up a whole range of resources. Possible, but more difficult to execute.

As for your profile of scores above, it is likely that all bar the top four will be able to continue as they are (maybe even do a bit better), but if the scores of the top four are cut in half, then the result is that the team no longer succeeds.
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
You would have to spend four weeks saving up a whole range of resources.
As you need less from each resource, the total amount of resources you need stays the same (or is even halved according to Inno). What exactly is the difference if you need 3 million steel or 1 million steel, planks and marble. It is not like the amount has been increased. It is simply more spread out. And for that it is much easier to collect, as you do not need to empty the market from a single good and all fellowship members can contribute for collecting.

Anyway, 8 provinces on 5 rounds should be doable by everyone with the new balancing. So I do not see why getting 10 chests should bemore difficult.
 

DeletedUser2300

Guest
I mean if I suggested that inno give everyone cookies, but they gave us cookies and a kick in the bikini area, would you blame my cookie idea?

Each time we ask inno for a cookie, they kick us in the bikini area. So yes, if you ask inno for a cookie and they kick us in the bikini area, I will say "SoggyShorts, please stop asking inno for a cookie, my bikini area can no longer sustain this abuse."

So ya, they are related.

With that said, I have come to love this game over the past few years. What I have noticed is during the last two, the makers of the game are finding ways to devalue everything we enjoy. The AWS no longer has a "humph" to it. Daily prizes have taken a nosedive. Grand prizes are practically nonexisting because you look at the value, and your first reaction is "ugh." If I am starting the event with an "ugh," how much effort do you think I will even put into the said event? To make it worst, you start to stalk beta daily prize release, and you are left with no care to give attitude by the time it makes it to live.

You have to understand at least a little bit from the players' point of view @Marindor. As a long time player, I feel I am being pushed out with each scale back you do. I realize new members are who sustain the game because it is like fishing....the more fresh fish you catch, the more enjoyable your meal becomes. I mean, who will like to bother with a fish that has been refrigerated for weeks or months, when you can grab a fresh fish?

By giving you guys money, you are taking into account what I spend it on...to decide the difficulty of the tournament. By buying expansions, you are telling me it will be a deciding factor in the challenge of a fight. By investing my time to upgrade my wonders to make battles easier, you are using the levels I gain to decide the difficulty of the battle. Wonders are not easy to upgrade, I am not a pusher, so the way I see it is you are negatively impacting me for playing the game honestly and for giving the game my excitement and joy.

What I cannot stomach with this new change is the exponential growth in fight difficulties and the fact that expansions I have spent money on, are being used against me in any shape or form...hell, I do not want them to decide on how EASY the battles should be either, I feel they should be REMOVED completely from the equation. Of course, we expect squad size to become more prominent when you combine FOUR provinces, but why should they become exponentially hard?

I feel inno big problem is, they do not think about sustainability. If people cannot sustain the military to the tournament each week, you will start to see your revenues disappear I guarantee you that. You guys have made this game more than just a city building game. You did not keep your loyal members because they like to wait 6 months between new races to make more pretty buildings....you kept them by enticing their interest through spire, tournaments, and events.

Unfortunately....with each passing day, you are finding ways to devalue those. I have spent a lot of money in this game because I wanted to support you guys. The developers and all the CMs for their hard work. I am at a point where I can no longer justify such action, and it leaves me rather disappointed @Marindor . I realize this is not a "stat" feedback you were looking for, but this is my feedback for the game and the direction I see it taking. I will have to consider changing the reviews I have done for Elvenar across the platform and updating the blog post reviews I have done across my gaming communities if this get push to live world with no regard for the things mentioned by everyone.

Have a wonderful day.
 

FieryArien

Well-Known Member
As you need less from each resource, the total amount of resources you need stays the same (or is even halved according to Inno). What exactly is the difference if you need 3 million steel or 1 million steel, planks and marble. It is not like the amount has been increased. It is simply more spread out. And for that it is much easier to collect, as you do not need to empty the market from a single good and all fellowship members can contribute for collecting.
That's not how steel tournament push works worked. You don't spend resources. You deploy boost buildings for light ranged units and kill everything you see with your archers/crossbowmen/rangers. Doesn't really work with this shiny new random mechanics ...

EDIT add: sorry for the sarcasm, that was my disappointment talking. Random opponents are no evil concept by itself, it's the consequences for my team what bothers me.
 
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Marindor

Well-Known Member
I realize this is not a "stat" feedback you were looking for, but this is my feedback for the game and the direction I see it taking.

That's not a problem, this is very valuable feedback nonetheless. It's not just about the numbers, but also about perception. Please let me emphasize that noone within our company is trying to harm players, lose players or anything in that direction. The announcement I posted last week described which direction we'd like to take with these changes. At this time we are running our first big external test round, so this is the time for us to gather all of the first feedback and data, dive into that, translate it to Live World situations etc etc. Of course that takes a bit of time, but the purpose of this testing is to make sure we get things right before introducing this to our Live servers.

At this moment, just plain honest, I don't have all the answers on all the questions yet either. We have lot of people who are fulltime investigating all your comments, concerns and experiences in a lot of disciplines (game designers, developers, product managers, analysts and of course also community managers and supporters). Sometimes it takes a bit of time before we can share any specifics, but please do know this topic has all our attention and all feedback is investigated. The only thing we (as a Beta community) can do for know is stay constructive, trust that everyone has the best intentions at heart, and keep on testing and sharing our specific experiences while the teams are figuring everything out.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
That's not how steel tournament push works worked. You don't spend resources. You deploy boost buildings for light ranged units and kill everything you see with your archers/crossbowmen/rangers. Doesn't really work with this shiny new random mechanics ...

*sarcasm mode on*

It still does, if you dump 20 Light range boosters and 10 dwarven armories in your town I will guarantee you can do as much as you like ;)
The only problem might be if 5*SS exceeds your light range units.
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
That's not how steel tournament push works worked. You don't spend resources. You deploy boost buildings for light ranged units and kill everything you see with your archers/crossbowmen/rangers. Doesn't really work with this shiny new random mechanics ...
How do you need any boosts to defeat an enemy that has equal squad size to you? Especially when you know his units and can deploy accordingly? Plus basically everyone has sanctuary on a few levels, right? I don't see how defeating 8 provinces on 5 rounds is a challenge for anyone who understood the battle system. You need to consider that higher levels give more tournament points and now with the changes you don't have 145% difficulty anymore in round 5 for lower provinces.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
As you need less from each resource, the total amount of resources you need stays the same (or is even halved according to Inno). What exactly is the difference if you need 3 million steel or 1 million steel, planks and marble. It is not like the amount has been increased. It is simply more spread out. And for that it is much easier to collect, as you do not need to empty the market from a single good and all fellowship members can contribute for collecting.
What @FieryArien said. It's not usually about the goods. If it were about the goods though, I think it is still easier for these teams to execute if they are urging 25 fellows to spend several weeks saving a certain thing, or a certain three things. As you say, 8 rounds of 5 provinces shouldn't be tough for anyone, but in those more formative stages guiding a whole team to do that at once can be more of a challenge than you think if you are used to getting the big scores all the time.

It still does, if you dump 20 Light range boosters and 10 dwarven armories in your town I will guarantee you can do as much as you like ;)
The only problem might be if 5*SS exceeds your light range units.
Pretty extreme example @CrazyWizard, haha. I know your sarcasm mode was on, but I may actually try dropping 20 ELRs on one tournament when this new system hits Live. With little else more useful to do with them now except send them all down in one blaze of glory.
 

FieryArien

Well-Known Member
How do you need any boosts to defeat an enemy that has equal squad size to you? Especially when you know his units and can deploy accordingly? Plus basically everyone has sanctuary on a few levels, right? I don't see how defeating 8 provinces on 5 rounds is a challenge for anyone who understood the battle system. You need to consider that higher levels give more tournament points and now with the changes you don't have 145% difficulty anymore in round 5 for lower provinces.
We are not discussing the same issue.
- You are talking about fellowship where people do bother with learning the battle system and contributing significantly. Such fellowship thrived in the old system and yes, I agree, they'll probably thrive in the new one.
- I'm talking about fellowship where minority of players takes tournament seriously. In the old system the tournament players could compensate for the indifferent players and achieve something. In the new system it won't be possible.
 
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