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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

galrond

Well-Known Member
Exactly... For the MM, I do believe it is in one of the tips for how to use it wisely.

It's bad enough that Inno screws us at every turn, but some suggestions take all strategy out of the game and suggesting this feature of being able to collect extra production from any buff is a bug simply reduces strategy. Seriously, there is a tip in the pop-up that you get that suggests there is a better time for using a spell.

It isn't a bug, at all and I do enormously well at taking advantage of it in my live game because I pay very good attention to what's happening in it. I don't do so well with it in my beta game because I don't put in the effort to max all of the resources available. And that's a key difference in the over all benefit.
The fact that they tell ppl, that MM, PoP (and EE for that matter) are best used right before you collect, are NOT the same as it´s intented ppl can collect 3 queues of troop production at the same time.
That ppl are using this loophole to their own advantage, and are sorry to see it closed, ain´t no surprise either.
In all games there´ll almost always be some unintented "features", when new content is introduced.
In WoW they´ll quickly fix them. In Elvenar it takes longer. And sometimes they don´t fix them at all.
The reasons not to fix them can be many: no inpact on gameplay, few have noticed, to complicated to fix, other things taking priority, and so on....

Someone once told me: The difference between a feature and a bug, is if you like it or not.
I think, that is the core of this discussion :)
Those who like it, will come with many explainations to why it´s good and intented.
Those envious types (like me), who dislike it, will come up with many reasons to why it´s bad, unintented and should be "fixed".
Most likely the two grps can´t agree on anything, but the fact, that they disagree :D
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
NO. No it has NOT always been that way. We could continue to fight until we could finish the 10th chest for the fellowship. Now we can't do that and I lost two key players. I only stopped fighting because the 10th chest was finished, not because I could no longer win a battle.
If you don´t use any boosters, and you don´t have any military AW. Then I´ll garentee, that you´ll at some point will be unable to win by combat.
In old tournament some ppl. were able to win all fights, but not without good AWs and boosters.
Other players would hit the "point of no winning". Most likely they wouldn´t find the point, becourse they started catering sooner due to heavy troop losses.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
If you don´t use any boosters, and you don´t have any military AW. Then I´ll garentee, that you´ll at some point will be unable to win by combat.
In old tournament some ppl. were able to win all fights, but not without good AWs and boosters.
Other players would hit the "point of no winning". Most likely they wouldn´t find the point, becourse they started catering sooner due to heavy troop losses.
Yep. All I know is I can easily get 1600+ points per week with zero military boosts. I have been doing it since the new system was added and I only just started chapter 6. And that is probably 90% fighting. And 2000 points is easy with a little extra catering or a health-boosting building. That is also with never doing the 6th star of any province.
 

Deleted User - 60152

Guest
The fact that they tell ppl, that MM, PoP (and EE for that matter) are best used right before you collect, are NOT the same as it´s intented ppl can collect 3 queues of troop production at the same time.


I still DON'T understand why you are saying this is a bug - before the change to 3 separate training ques a player had to be very careful about collecting 3 at once - and it took considerably to do it as you have wait until one group was done - start the next group and then wait to start the last group - then feed the bear and collect. Now, I can load all three training buildings when I go to bed - when I get up - feed the bear and collect from all three - thus accomplishing the same thing over a shorter period of time without risking a collection before feeding. And I can collect from each of the building during the day while the bear is in effect. The only thing that will cost me more is time boosts if I want to boost multiple buildings.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
I still DON'T understand why you are saying this is a bug - before the change to 3 separate training ques a player had to be very careful about collecting 3 at once - and it took considerably to do it as you have wait until one group was done - start the next group and then wait to start the last group - then feed the bear and collect. Now, I can load all three training buildings when I go to bed - when I get up - feed the bear and collect from all three - thus accomplishing the same thing over a shorter period of time without risking a collection before feeding. And I can collect from each of the building during the day while the bear is in effect. The only thing that will cost me more is time boosts if I want to boost multiple buildings.
I applaud the change.
What I disliked, was that ppl. were able to use brown bear on shared que, as if there was separate ques, even though it took 3 times as long to produce.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
The fact that they tell ppl, that MM, PoP (and EE for that matter) are best used right before you collect, are NOT the same as it´s intented ppl can collect 3 queues of troop production at the same time.
That ppl are using this loophole to their own advantage, and are sorry to see it closed, ain´t no surprise either.
In all games there´ll almost always be some unintented "features", when new content is introduced.
In WoW they´ll quickly fix them. In Elvenar it takes longer. And sometimes they don´t fix them at all.
The reasons not to fix them can be many: no inpact on gameplay, few have noticed, to complicated to fix, other things taking priority, and so on....

Someone once told me: The difference between a feature and a bug, is if you like it or not.
I think, that is the core of this discussion :)
Those who like it, will come with many explainations to why it´s good and intented.
Those envious types (like me), who dislike it, will come up with many reasons to why it´s bad, unintented and should be "fixed".
Most likely the two grps can´t agree on anything, but the fact, that they disagree :D

It's not a bug, and was intended.
The main issue is that the devs / product managers are at best casuals, they are not players, and they have never in there life powerplayed anything.
This is why they don't see connections, even the obvious ones.

The bear itself is not a problem, nor the triple queue then petfoot thing.
The problem is:
  • They underestimated it's power
  • unlimited quests, creating multiple instances at a lot of players instead of a few rare whales spending hundreds / thousands of dollars
  • the influence of timeboosters
It's there constant lack of knowledge to powerplay that lead to issues.
Imagine that loads of players had the superset I have. collecting 500k t1 a day. they got lucky and only a handfull of players figured that out and got that one.
After I posted this weakness of sets on the forums people started to look more carefully at sets the next events, this is the one with the now infamous cristmas trees that that got "nerfed" when last chapter was released.

If you do not understand the consequenses of your actions you create in-game issues.
Like the more recent library set that wrecks havoc under scroll boosted players.

To me this was an obvious flaw that I figured out in like 2 seconds after it's release. but my mind is wired like a powerplayer, I am constantly looking for opportunities to improve my game. but that for me is abvious seems to me oblivious to them.

Unfortunalely they are making the game, as long as in the inner circle no person with the proper expertise can give proper feedback these problem will keep arise.
What they need is an inner circle of players with the prober skills who are willing to give feedback in the early development phase.
They could easily sign a non-discosure agreement, and help them avoid obvious flaws.
At this moment problem are caugt once they reach a stage where it's either already released, or are at a development stage where fundamental changes can no longer be made. this is the main problem.

As long as these skills arent present it's just waiting for the next screwup.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
It is not a bug, it is an argument contrary to how other spells work that it should be a bug.

I still DON'T understand why you are saying this is a bug - before the change to 3 separate training ques a player had to be very careful about collecting 3 at once - and it took considerably to do it as you have wait until one group was done - start the next group and then wait to start the last group - then feed the bear and collect. Now, I can load all three training buildings when I go to bed - when I get up - feed the bear and collect from all three - thus accomplishing the same thing over a shorter period of time without risking a collection before feeding. And I can collect from each of the building during the day while the bear is in effect. The only thing that will cost me more is time boosts if I want to boost multiple buildings.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Like the new tournament formula, the steepness of the increase in difficulty and sledge hammer against AW levels...

Yes, this problem should have been adressed before they even started the incorporation phase,
Before actual tons of money was spend building up the new infrastuction in the codebase.

This is why you see patchwork and no proper changes. making fundamental changes would mean they have to thow maybe up to 200 to 300 thousand of euro's in the garbage bin, and start over.

You could imagine the no one would dare taking resposibiblity for such a failure, and I suspect this is the whole reason they havent adressed it at all so far. imagine the product managers having to be called to the presidents office to explain why such a f*ck *p was possible.
Someone might possibly loose a job / promotion because of it if they admitted it.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
You could imagine the no one would dare taking resposibiblity for such a failure, and I suspect this is the whole reason they havent adressed it at all so far. imagine the product managers having to be called to the presidents office to explain why such a f*ck *p was possible.
Someone might possibly loose a job / promotion because of it if they admitted it.
They still might... if enough paying players stop paying or quit due to this changes.
But yes, this way it's more probable that they will get away with this (and do serious damage to the whole game in the long term = more players quitting, less paying, death loop might be in place already (nerfs>quits>less revenue>more nerfs>more quits>even less revenue>...>>>...end of Elvenar)).
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
Yes, this problem should have been adressed before they even started the incorporation phase,
Before actual tons of money was spend building up the new infrastuction in the codebase.

This is why you see patchwork and no proper changes. making fundamental changes would mean they have to thow maybe up to 200 to 300 thousand of euro's in the garbage bin, and start over.

You could imagine the no one would dare taking resposibiblity for such a failure, and I suspect this is the whole reason they havent adressed it at all so far. imagine the product managers having to be called to the presidents office to explain why such a f*ck *p was possible.
Someone might possibly loose a job / promotion because of it if they admitted it.
You should be happy: THEY ARE LISTENING!!!!! For sure they will understand their BIG mistakes and will change their development process ... LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

BTW, you are completely right, but I don't trust INNO anymore :-(
 
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palmira

Well-Known Member
After we enter chapter XVII we have the perfect sign on our cities: gone fishing :)


gone-fishing.png
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Yes, this problem should have been adressed before they even started the incorporation phase,
Before actual tons of money was spend building up the new infrastuction in the codebase.

This is why you see patchwork and no proper changes. making fundamental changes would mean they have to thow maybe up to 200 to 300 thousand of euro's in the garbage bin, and start over.

You could imagine the no one would dare taking resposibiblity for such a failure, and I suspect this is the whole reason they havent adressed it at all so far. imagine the product managers having to be called to the presidents office to explain why such a f*ck *p was possible.
Someone might possibly loose a job / promotion because of it if they admitted it.

Time and time again there is a gross failure to appreciate exponential growth. I think the not making AW count up to the chapter people are in could go a long way towards fixing it.

They still might... if enough paying players stop paying or quit due to this changes.
But yes, this way it's more probable that they will get away with this (and do serious damage to the whole game in the long term = more players quitting, less paying, death loop might be in place already (nerfs>quits>less revenue>more nerfs>more quits>even less revenue>...>>>...end of Elvenar)).

All games reach a point where they aren't financially viable any more and I tend to agree that they've chosen to speed that process up.
 

Maillie

Well-Known Member
Has anyone done the math on Chapter 17, if anyone dares to go that far? How about Chapter 20? Do we eventually start the tournament with an enemy ss that's 3x our ss?

The last Super Blunder that I recall was the one where the devs decided that too much population (as if that could be a problem) was put into event buildings, namely the Glossy Garden and the trees. A decision was made to suddenly remove this population from event buildings that we had earned and placed in our cities, leaving the small cities with HUGE negatives in pop, unable to do anything. We couldn't even set up size ones for events. In hindsight, those event buildings just outgrew their usefulness in the normal span of time and were replaced anyway.

Why didn't they learn from this?
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Has anyone done the math on Chapter 17, if anyone dares to go that far? How about Chapter 20? Do we eventually start the tournament with an enemy ss that's 3x our ss?
Ratio between own and enemy squad size depends only on province and star number.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
chapter 15

ProvinceMax roundT1T2T3MoneySuppliesOrcsMana
1637 30025 60015 6001 180 00002 9200
2642 20011 20034 5001 510 00050 00084023 000
3684 70014 40040 800500 000130 00000
4621 40055 60049 200067 0008 8000
56110 00022 60034 5002 540 000270 000017 000
6689 00056 00053 4000230 0004 6000
7688 00027 00071 5001 500 000430 000034 000
86182 00059 00039 0003 000 000180 00000
96119 000106 00037 0001 800 000200 0004 60047 000
10569 00043 00078 0000430 000071 000
115195 00040 00024 0002 000 000470 0005 9000
12563 00086 00076 0004 700 000230 000044 000
135116 00075 00097 0002 500 0000054 000
14599 00079 00086 0003 000 000520 0005 9000
155173 000169 00016 0002 900 000590 00000
165150 000112 00075 0000660 0008 0000
175156 000123 00037 0006 700 000690 0007 5000
18538 00098 000126 0007 200 000340 0008 00064 000
19582 000239 00089 0007 100 000000
205276 000178 00048 0003 400 0000070 000
215288 00072 00049 0003 900 000028 00080 000
225302 00077 000125 0000420 000074 000
235104 00080 000160 00001 650 000077 000
245225 000248 00055 0008 200 000011 0000
255397 00088 00057 00013 600 0000084 000
265349 000177 00030 0004 900 000950 00012 0000
275305 000184 00061 0004 700 000024 000100 000
285319 000239 000123 0000013 0000
295335 000147 000159 00001 010 00000
305396 000206 00068 0005 400 000540 0000110 000
315355 000202 000102 0005 900 000570 00014 0000
325418 000217 00075 0000600 00028 0000
335302 000335 00072 00011 200 000600 00000
345311 000278 00079 00012 300 000015 000110 000
355459 000357 00000650 00031 0000
365399 000120 000197 00013 200 000650 00000
375408 000120 000248 0006 900 000016 0000
385586 000257 00081 0000035 0000
395430 000260 000175 0006 900 000650 00000
405352 000134 000175 00001 440 00035 000140 000
Total9 230 6005 417 4003 218 500148 630 00015 217 000319 0601 199 000


lm:9,00%
lr:31,29%
ma:11,96%
hm:9,28%
hr:38,47%
mistwalkers:12,54% (40% of all lr)
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
It may be due to me being drunk, but you all sound reasonable :p
Well in my wet dreams, that´s becourse you have seen the truth= totally agree with me....

All Hail Galrond the naive besserwisser, the slayer of conformaty, and in all ways an annoying.........

I have learned many things from this site, but only becourse I question "common knowledge".

PS. No matter how much anyone forsee total meltdown of elvenar, INNO won`t change their main direction.
PPS. If you want changes, give constuktive feedback.
PPPS. Sniveling, crying, sobbing, whining, and/or "this is not fair", won´t get you anywhere.
As we say in Denmark: Here`s some sandpaper, dry your eyes :p
 

Deleted User - 89608

Guest
It's there constant lack of knowledge to powerplay that lead to issues.
You hit it just right. I think most of the developers are casual gamers and don't think this way. I've watched most of their live Q&As and I cringe at moments when a developer gets a basic detail of the game wrong. Or when Rika responded to a question asking if tournaments could ever have more than 10 chests. She seemed genuinely surprised that anyone would want that and implied she hasn't even gotten 10 chests yet in her fellowship. Or in the Q&A from last year's Zodiac event when one of the developers said his favorite was the panda bear.

Inno could use a few power players on staff who are just paid to play and "break" their own game to find balance issues.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
You hit it just right. I think most of the developers are casual gamers and don't think this way. I've watched most of their live Q&As and I cringe at moments when a developer gets a basic detail of the game wrong. Or when Rika responded to a question asking if tournaments could ever have more than 10 chests. She seemed genuinely surprised that anyone would want that and implied she hasn't even gotten 10 chests yet in her fellowship. Or in the Q&A from last year's Zodiac event when one of the developers said his favorite was the panda bear.

Inno could use a few power players on staff who are just paid to play and "break" their own game to find balance issues.

Panda bear has the best looks, when we look at the demograph which they intend to target with there game that is actually spot on.


Just for lols.
In the current formula for a chapter 16 player there is a theoretical difference between players of 45000%
A more "achievable" difference is 15000%, this would be a town build to specifically to exploit this formula.
But for even current players who cannot adapt because of former choices may see differences in the range of 400-1000%

I have no clue how else to describe in simple terms how incredibly broken this formula is.
 
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