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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
@PrimroseSylvia Hope dies last.
I think of this as "There is always hope until it is dashed on the rocks of reality. At which point we invent a new hope." Hopefully, whoever came up with the new method will see that it works ok-ish with the spire, but not with tourneys. If not, I hope they are replaced with someone who understands the law of diminishing returns and that people don't want to hit a ceiling that can't be breached. Yes, the irony is intended.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
I am with @Lovec Krys on this.

Many people think that there are two squad size models right now - for the tournaments and for the Spire. But there are actually 3 distinct ones:
- City Advancement Level (CAL) - this is a model that ties in relic boosts, AW levels, expansions and research
- Spire SS/catering model - this model ties in CAL and encounter place to calculate own SSS, enemy SSS and catering costs (Spire progression model)
- Tournament SS/catering model - this model ties in CAL and province/star number to calculate own TSS, enemy TSS and catering costs (tournament progression model)

Right now, CAL model is shared between the Spire and the tournament, and it is very unlikely to be an accident. Any changes here will change the balance of the Spire as well, and I just don't expect this happening at all.

Now, tournament model itself is more self-contained. Progression in own tournament SS is fairly straightforward (the same as before in fact) and is unlikely to change. A few things that I think we may get some movements (as changes are fairly localized) on are those:

- Base tournament SS based on CAL: this can be adjusted, and it will proportionately scale all subsequent encounters (own/enemy SS and catering costs) by the same ratio. This would be rather straightforward to implement, but is also fairly blunt instrument as it simply pushes down the max possible province without changing anything else, really. All relative difficulties stay the same.
- Enemy SS ramp up: this is the most interesting one IMO. You can see a chart of enemy SS factor ramp up on my site, but basically by province 30 it is ~2.0x. This is very high, and by Inno's own expectations is supposed to be basically impossible. This ramp up profile is also entirely new and looks to be fairly arbitrary (I am sure it was calibrated to something). I see no reason why it cannot be adjusted at this moment, those changes would be fairly localized and can be fine grained as there is a whole profile to work with.
- Catering to SS ratio: ratios between different goods are the same as with the Spire, so I don't expect those to change. But baseline factor to convert SS into goods can be scaled, and that can make overall catering cheaper (or more expensive) with respect to a particular squad size. Also a fairly blunt instrument (a single number), but it can tip the balance between fighting and catering.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Actually, such a steep increase in difficulty could be justified. This allows Inno to give us very powerful rewards in next events (which would give everyone an incentive to spend money in the event and reduce the gap between old and new players created by phoenix and bear), without being quickly back to the situation where number of completed provinces is the limit.
But, although it has no downsides, it isn't something Elvenar team would do. (@Marindor tell me if I'm wrong).
(Sarcasm below)
With the current way they're driving the game, here's what would happen for the new player Inno wants to help with these changes (assuming they don't quit when they find out they weren't given the downsides of where they spend their diamonds) :
In the beginning they're able to do well in tournaments, quickly reaching the 1600 required for 10 chests thanks to the changes.
Two years later they're ending chapter 15, not being able to do more than 2700 points and 80kp from weekly tournaments (that's 10×6*) because they missed the opportunity to get a fully evolved Fire phoenix (well, there's this yearly occasion to get some artifacts, but each iteration needs 2× more new artifacts to craft all the way to the oldest one, so that max level is never reached... that's how sum of 1/2^n works).
Events are now almost giving more KPs than tournaments... oh no, i forgot to mention 2022 version of red chest is giving some random 1-10 kp reward which is actually averaging 2, or a 1 squad troop instant or a 5 AWKP daily exclusive...
Six months later, they're moving in chapter 16 at the slow pace of 1 tech per week because KP cost is too high, and find out they'll never be able to catch up with end-gamers because they're not able to finish chapters as fast as they're released...
(End of sarcasm)

I'd rather have expected a nerf of Fire phoenix (and brown bear), instead of (and this word doesn't mean "and") this scaling in tournament difficulty which is assuming everyone has these buildings which give more benefits than max leveled AWs without penalty. My main complaint then would have been we're not able to switch Phoenixes, but the game would have been much more balanced after this issue fixed.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@PaNonymeB Please don't give them advice what to nerf next, I want to at least be able to maintain 24/7 spell creation and having a BP from tournaments. Not having tournaments unplayable even sooner than with the current system (they would just nerf without easing anything in the current system).
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
Well, let's see what awaits us tomorrow. The game sure needed balancing but as always InnoGames’ efforts have been completely out of touch and as with the introduction of the restoration spell let us hope they back up from punishing paying customers
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
I’ve already stopped collecting productions for 2-3 days... just staring at them with the thought, what would I do with them if I’m not going to activate the filled tech. (And catering is insanely expensive compared to 3/9 hour or day production)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Yup, and my score moved up by 4 places without me doing anything... I think a few other people above my score must have deleted everything besides Warrior11. The cuts over this should be at Inno, not in my FS. Some people make a paycheque for upsetting and destroying the financial base of the game and that's just maladapted and backwards.

Today a new tournament and still no news from Inno :-(
 

Dl. Goe

Member
If they really want to narrow the gap between v top players and the rest (and nothing else), they should allow only one special (event) building, of one type, to be fed at any time; that’s first; and if it’s not enough, twist something regarding wonders power/wonders levels/wonders active in the same time. Nothing else is wrong with the current tournament.

On the other hand they don’t want to be so blunt and clear, they prefer to change the whole tournament system, maybe no one will follow the net result; and that’s somehow childish because, even if people can’t follow the consequences of these changes, they will feel the results…but, because it’s a game, let’s allow the development team to be a little childish too.
 

Arthus

Well-Known Member
It's always interesting to watch the downfall from good events and good tournaments 1 year ago because of company strategy change...
Guess why every building gives now KP and next evo building in Autumn will give 6 KP per feed xD
These KP are what they took away from tournaments ^^
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Wise golem doesn't give kp, and we had all of the other evoling buildings before the tournament nerf. What you are saying doesn't connect to the facts of the game.

It's always interesting to watch the downfall from good events and good tournaments 1 year ago because of company strategy change...
Guess why every building gives now KP and next evo building in Autumn will give 6 KP per feed xD
These KP are what they took away from tournaments ^^
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
It's always interesting to watch the downfall from good events and good tournaments 1 year ago because of company strategy change...
Guess why every building gives now KP and next evo building in Autumn will give 6 KP per feed xD
These KP are what they took away from tournaments ^^
Nah... not getting excited by the sneak peek.
Fool me once, shame on you (Not you ;)
Fool me twice, shame on me.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Hi guys,

Let's keep it constructive, please. As you already know: we are working on several things. When we have new information to share, we will. As long as you don't hear any updates, there's just no new information to share yet. Getting sarcastic or deciding to quit over a feature that isn't even ready yet for Live implementation doesn't really help anybody. So please for now just keep the discussion productive and when we have new things to share, we will do so. Thank you.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Warrior only played on beta. There's nothing constructive to say about this. This isn't the first time changes that obviously really screw players over have come out. This is constructive, there was no excuse for doing this.

Hi guys,

Let's keep it constructive, please. As you already know: we are working on several things. When we have new information to share, we will. As long as you don't hear any updates, there's just no new information to share yet. Getting sarcastic or deciding to quit over a feature that isn't even ready yet for Live implementation doesn't really help anybody. So please for now just keep the discussion productive and when we have new things to share, we will do so. Thank you.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Hi guys,

Let's keep it constructive, please. As you already know: we are working on several things. When we have new information to share, we will. As long as you don't hear any updates, there's just no new information to share yet. Getting sarcastic or deciding to quit over a feature that isn't even ready yet for Live implementation doesn't really help anybody. So please for now just keep the discussion productive and when we have new things to share, we will do so. Thank you.
And as always, these are the moments when you actually get some new things to share. Over the next couple of weeks, we will focus on these things:

  • Decreasing the chance for mana and orcs to appear in negotiation, plus slightly decreasing the chance of coins and supplies to appear here.
  • Reducing the impact expansions (both premium and regular) have on difficulty for both Tournaments and Spire. Because they also affect the Spire difficulty, these changes will probably be merged to Live sooner than the new tournaments (since we still need testing time for those).
  • Seperating the unit production queues so multiple unit training buildings can work simultaneously. This will probably take a bit more time than the rest.
We have no exact dates yet for the implementations, and these ideas are still subject to change pending investigations, but at least you know what our next topics are, aside from the whole general balancing issue which keeps being investigated. As always, please keep sharing your feedback, because as you can see that does help us make changes in certain directions.
 
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iDavis

Well-Known Member
Seems like the 3rd point is going to be a good step for balancing brown bears issue (since many of those players (including me) is skipping unit productions with boosters, what is not going to be much affected by this change)..
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
Seperating the unit production queues so multiple unit training buildings can work simultaneously. This will probably take a bit more time than the rest.
Two points:
1) Will the orc requirements for Orc units be also removed as well, since the other in game orcs requirements in the latest chapters prevents us from training them? (I haven't been able to train them despite having 9 armories (not enough orcs to train them))
2) I hope this does not mean that tournaments will get even harder.