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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Alcaro

Well-Known Member
This hasn't even hit the live worlds and it's already affecting my live world decisions. I just built the Spire Library over there and was going to start working on upgrading it.. but now I'm not sure if I should, as upgrading it will hurt my tournament play.. I'm done with chapter 16 and I don't know what I'm going to be trying to get Kp for. I guess just to upgrade "military Aw's"? My city here is small and the changes have little effect on it. So I can't really give proper feedback on it.. but if players with bigger cities don't like the changes then I know my city in US2 Winyandor and my ship over there, where we upgrade Aw's all the time, are not going to be in favor of them. The only 2 positives that I can see are removing the SSU's from the formula and the one fight per province.. other than that.. when players are quitting and debating selling off AW's that's a change that shouldn't be made. IMHO.
I finished ch.16 for a while (in live server), I wasn't in a big rush to build the Wonders from ch.15 either, after Simia Sapiens I thought a lot and eventually I've built Thermal Spring but now I know I will not build any wonder which isn't fully useful. Thank god I was "sapiens" enough to refrain from building cute wonders just because they exist. Still ... if nothing changes in tournament's formula, I am pondering what Wonder will be sold (damn! it breaks my heart only thinking at this!).
 

Lord Soth

Well-Known Member
Inno should reevaluate both the guys that came up with this change as well as the change it self. They might have tried to make tournament easier for new players but they completely went the wrong way (just like in Spire). When those new players hit the first guest races they will notice that tournament isn't as easy anymore and cost too much. o_O
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
THANKS INNO; another big and active player quit. warrior11
thanks.
thanks...!
Warrior11 was in my FS so lets just assess all of the malcontent over this disastrous move. He was a very well respected and very helpful member of our FS and we all feel the sting of him quitting.

He's deleted everything... He's not coming back... I will just add my thanks for AGAIN driving good players away over STUPID changes, and a seriously stagnant response to what, over 60 pages of concerns over the two threads on this.

He said he would give Inno 3 weeks to deal with this and we've gotten a big ZERO back.

1596367514660.png
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
The time frame for waiting for things is excessive. Didn't we wait something like 2 years to be able to upgrade event buildings, and then it left you stunned about holding onto buildings over that time for upgrading, and now, with the downgrading on event building that came with chapter 16...

It has been enough time for meaningful feedback.

Throwing a tantrum like this over something that hasn't even been finalized yet is totally not dumb.
 

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
He said he would give Inno 3 weeks to deal with this and we've gotten a big ZERO back.
Only here on the Betaforum - and this is much better than the reaction to our concerns in the german forum. There we were told that each expansion always brought more adavantages than disadvantages an we should stop irritating people with false claims that this wasn't the case.

And yes, we were told the same for wonderlevels despite of the fact that anybody who knows the wonders should know this can't be true without calculating or even thinking.
 

Jammin

Active Member
Hello, I am following this tournament change discussion in various forums and I think it is time to get rid of my mustard too, I am German so whoever finds spelling mistakes can keep them. In addition, it can be a little too aggressively constructive for one or the other, so I beg your pardon ... I'm not known for bringing flowers to a fight.

First of all, what bothers me the most is the calculation of the troop size, seriously ... what's that? What sense does this KP-AW system make for advanced players?
Why keep playing tournaments? What to do with the KP?
So what should the players do that have filled the wrong AW's?
What should the players do who bought all the extensions?

Is that bad luck now?

Research + relic bonus + city expansion + AW level = troop size

What about chapters 17 + 18 +19 and and and ... more research, more city extensions and even more AW levels. What will the size of the troops look like? Should millions fight against millions more? How should that be produced?
With such troop sizes Phoenix and brown bear are completely devalued, we say thank you INNO!

Trader, the negotiation will be 30% cheaper for traders, oh yes ???
If thousands of orcs are required in the negotiations, what sense does a 30% reduction in goods make? Since when do traders have the city full of armory?

Since the game has been available on the cell phone, it has only moved in the direction of game over, it seems to me as if a company had put a great game into the hands of profitable zero checkers who scrap it within a year.

Proofs?
Event main prizes garbage, event daily prizes garbage, strong sets gone, wishing well gone, time booster gone, WP blessing gone.
I only see nerf + downgrade.
The app players who are now INNO's new donors will also receive these tournament changes without the possibility to fight manually without looking at the terrain, you will not even see the size of each enemy team, but only the total troop size.

But the diamond healing option, they thought about implementing it :)
Just as an aside, this option is as useless as a train schedule without a train.
Nobody is so stupid to press on it.

Now that's my feedback, you don't have to study to see in which disaster it will all end when more chapters come.
If there are still enough players and anyone wants to do further research.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
The time frame for waiting for things is excessive. Didn't we wait something like 2 years to be able to upgrade event buildings, and then it left you stunned about holding onto buildings over that time for upgrading, and now, with the downgrading on event building that came with chapter 16...
Downgrading? I´m not that far in tech, so I have no clue what you´re talking about.
What did they downgrade and how?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
They downgraded relative value of all producing event buildings by giving them either zero or very small production increase between chapter 15 and 16. Making their upgrade almost useless.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I think most buildings value went up by 20% with chapter 16, but event build's worth only went up 12%, so their relative strength has declined. This is the first time Inno has done this to event buildings, and they just need to do this a few more chapters and old event buildings you've worked to upgrade will be worthless.

Downgrading? I´m not that far in tech, so I have no clue what you´re talking about.
What did they downgrade and how?
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Has anyone tried to lose a fight for the early provinces, say first 10?

Specifically placing 5 squads but of the opposite type to what you should be using. For example using a mage to beat light range and light melee enemies?

My basic test and small sample size would indicate its pretty difficult to lose in the first 6 provinces. I started to lose from around province 7 or the hardest rounds in provinces below 7. I would expect a person with poor combat skills would pick better compositions than the worst possible, just by following the in-game hints/highlights.
I took a similar, but different track this week to see how a poor strategy would work. I didn't use any 5-day buildings, but get 12% LR boost from the Needles of the Tempest and a 15% defense boost from the Martial Monastery. I'm at the beginning of Orcs, not ever the portal placed.

What I did was place 1 of each troop type from the barracks chosen from left to right and auto-fought. Didn't even look at the enemy and here are my results:
1st round: Success on 11 provs. Prov 10 lost until reversing order to be right to left in selection. Barely won.
2nd round: Success on 10 provs. Prov 9 required the reversing of troop selection.
3rd round: Oops forgot to collect info. Silly self.
4th round: Success on 8 provs. Prov 7 required reversing direction.
5th round: Success on 8 provs. Prov 6 lost both directions of troop selection. Terrain had me trapped behind a hedge, so catered it.

In my sample, the difficulty was consistent on where I was stopped. I didn't expect to do that well since the computer is pretty bad trying to control more than 2 troop types. Maybe since the enemy was using more troop types this week, the computer algorithms (just can't call it AI) offset each other in foolish moves. But like @Mykan's test, it shows a poor strategy can go a good ways in the lower levels if you can sustain the growing troop lose. Also, only 2 samples is not enough to draw conclusions, except that they don't contradict the expectations given the difficulty table.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
Throwing a tantrum like this over something that hasn't even been finalized yet is totally not dumb.
Marindor made a clear statement that they are satisfied with the results, and since the problem lies in the core of the change, we can only expect cosmetic changes.

Only here on the Betaforum - and this is much better than the reaction to our concerns in the german forum. There we were told that each expansion always brought more adavantages than disadvantages an we should stop irritating people with false claims that this wasn't the case.

And yes, we were told the same for wonderlevels despite of the fact that anybody who knows the wonders should know this can't be true without calculating or even thinking.
Unfortunately the only thing which can change their mind is massive decline in their revenue.
If this won't happen we could see the current trend unchanged and we could see how it will continue and how it ends from other games.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Marindor made a clear statement that they are satisfied with the results, and since the problem lies in the core of the change, we can only expect cosmetic changes.
Really? I must have missed that comment. I've seen the comments that they are still working on balancing, but nothing about being satisfied with results.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Yogi Dave
Here:
My answer at this point is the same as my answers in the last couple of days: We see that for the majority of our players, the changes are already working fine as they are and many are happy about the less clicking and the fact that they can get more points with their casual play style. The feedback of the more fanatic / end tech players, which are the most vocal part of our forums, is still being looked into by several departments. All the feedback is still read and forwarded, but considering big balancing changes, calculating them etc takes a lot of time, which we are going to take for that.
Original is on the page 41. This makes it clear that only cosmetic changes will be done and nerf was intended.
 

PrimroseSylvia

Well-Known Member
they are satisfied with the results
All the feedback is still read and forwarded, but considering big balancing changes, calculating them etc takes a lot of time, which we are going to take for that.
we're still looking into all the feedback about balancing
As far as I can see, actually it's just one interpretation. Maybe right, maybe not, but there's nothing permanently decided.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
While it seems to me you are reading a bit more into that given the last sentence in @Marindor's post, I don't doubt the basic method of choosing squad size will stay the same, just maybe reduced a good bit. The difficulty level is fine to begin with, but needs to not grow near as quickly as it does even though it is just a linear increase. The difficulty quickly take it out of the realm of being able to win without going to taking extreme measures. I can understand it will be very difficult for them to change the method of choosing squad size at this point. So, I think we are stuck with it for a while. Difficulty is a much simpler thing to change and it needs to be done too.

Inno bit off too many changes at the same time and have made a mistake to make it too much like the spire. I do understand them wanting to make it more difficult to get huge tourney scores. If just changing to 1 battle per prov was done, this would have only increased the number of people who could reach all provinces and take them to 5 or 6 stars. I know I've done that several times when it was 4 battles, but got bored of all the clicks. I probably get back to going for the ton of KP if it was just that change. I do like making it easier for less advanced players to do better. This arrangement will especially help the newer players on mobile since the terrain won't have as much an effect until they reach the higher provs when the difficulty takes over and dominates their progress. They also have a smaller relative squad size, so the calculation method for that won't effect them as much either. As has been pointed out, the squad size calcs seem to begin to dominate after the orcs chapter.

Ultimately, this new method of squad size calculation will have to be changed as it creates a ceiling for the advanced players due to of diminishing returns. This is unfortunate and will badly hurt the game for every end of chapter player and will hurt those who pass orcs.

I liked @CrazyWizard's concept.
For me this means a customisable system. each chapter gets a value based on it's "improvement"
This value is then divided between all mandatory researches of that chapter.
I'd been thinking a piecewise calculation would be best as it could be tweaked much easier and making a piece for each chapter or two would be a good place to split the calculations. I've done this many times in coding. You have to match the values where the equation changes and make them not show a huge change quickly in the new calculations.