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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
The Ancient Wonder system is such a good and important facet of this game. Apart from undoing players' hard work time and (sometimes) money on these buildings, they will eventually be reduced to a much more minor role. We will be advising new players to think carefully about building any Wonder. It's a real shame. Several of them will never be being built at all.
Exactly. For people who decide to cater very few wonders will be worth it. And even for end game fighters there won't be that many useful wonders left. For me there are currently only 9 wonders left that have enough benefits to overcome the increased troop size they cause. Which means that the game would have been over a long time ago with the new troop size calculation because I have already a lot more WP than needed to fill those wonders.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
This is not at all addressing the problem that a lower level account can be much stronger than a higher level account by just focusing on a few AW. The power of AW in lower chapters is much stronger.

I think the core idea of connecting AW cost to chapter is a good one, but I think there'd be a big equity issue if it's just subtracted from your current chapter. At the moment, there can be a player in chapter 8 who has a level 21 golden abyss, while another has a level 7 sanctuary, a level 7 GA, and a level 7 needles. To introduce a change that suddenly meant the latter player has no additional cost but the level 21 GA does would create issues ("it's not fair, I can't lower my GA levels, now I'm penalized until chapter 21 comes out!" ). if instead you told both players they get the tournament cost lowered by 20 AW levels (or whatever) in whatever ratio they chose when they enter chapter 8, they're encouraged to progress through chapters to reduce AW cost and keep freedom of choice.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
The only type that I would like to get rid of with the current system here on beta that could be saved by adjusted penalties are troop producing wonders without a strong secondary effect. They do increase troop production after all, but for cities with extremely high troop production like mine they currently cost more troops than they produce because of the higher troop size they cause.
AW with troop production are for the weakest troops, so massive penalty is being applied for weak troops.


I also may be better served to delete my level 31 Needles and then build it back up to, say level 16 (same goes for any high level Wonders) and then experiment with gradually increasing the ones where it makes sense to do so.
This is so stupid that Inno has come up with something that has people discussing deleting AWs.

Seriously, isn't a main point of the tournament to get the extra kp to level AWs?


I played beta within the range of what my game allows and there was nothing about the tournament that made it feel special or fun. Being able to give a nice boost to leveling AW from kp from tournament provinces has been fun and the boost has been slaughtered. It wasn't fun. In terms of tournament score, they traded kp provinces for broken rune provinces that were mostly not done. This really is a horrible design.
 

Eltina

Well-Known Member
I think it's a shame that 11 to 19 chests only gives 10KP and one RR.
no 10 chest gives 30KP, rune, RR and blueprint
It takes several points to take the next 9 chests, but not much you get for it.

I can read that there are now only 5 battlefields in the tournament, that it should make it easier to understand to set up your own wars against the opponent.
It might be easier on a computer.
But in the APP you can not see the number of the opponent fighting.
Hope maybe the number could be added to the opponent in APP.

Hope I have written so it can be understood, my daily language is not English.
 

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Steelhail

Member
This is not at all addressing the problem that a lower level account can be much stronger than a higher level account by just focusing on a few AW. The power of AW in lower chapters is much stronger.
Thanks for the feedback. I don't want to get off-topic from the thread, but I think I'm missing something in your critique. I might also not be communicating this well. What I'm suggesting is, say, a player entering chapter 3 can do 3 AW upgrades without affecting tournament formula, then they enter chapter 4 and can do 4 more AW upgrades without affecting tournament formula, whatever number INNO thinks is "on track" for the chapter. So you pick your level 7 needles, or your level 7 GA, or split the difference. And you get to chapter 5 with sanctuary/monastery and have to make trade-offs again. My proposal doesn't let you build a level 21 Needles in chapter 4 consequence-free from the tournament formula.

Regardless, I loved your idea about a penalty-free expansion per chapter and strategies for balancing the AW formula.
 

DeepTerminal

Active Member
If Inno still wants to include AWs in the calculation, then the squad size formula should only adjust for military AWs, and the catering formula should only adjust for goods production AWs. As countless feedback on this thread indicated, the formula is too punishing for players with lots of AWs, and actually discourages players from building and leveling AWs. Definitely not something Inno wants to see.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
In all the thinking and calculating around increased tournament difficulty compared to the extra power of AW levels, have levels 31-35 of AWs been considered at all, as the benefits are already greatly reduced compared to previous levels? It seems to me that no one should even consider taking any of those extra levels now.
 

DeletedUser3332

Guest
I made an account in beta to try out the tournament changes. This week I had 4 provinces to play with. I completed all 4 provinces to 6 stars without catering, something that would have been impossible for a chapter 2 city before these changes. Lowering the difficulty for the initial provinces was a good idea I think. Maxing out relic boosts will be faster and easier now.

However I know that this happy situation will be short lived and I'll soon have to think about whether I really want to place one more expansion or add another AW level, whether the benefits they offer will offset the increase in costs. I'm fine with this in principle (this is a strategy game after all), but what's making the formula unfair is that there is no way to place an expansion back into inventory or reduce AW levels somehow. I think there should be a spell for putting expansions into inventory, which can be 10x as rare as a teleport, say. For AWs the proposal to discount some AW levels based on chapter sounds good.

One aspect of the new system that makes a lot of sense to me is the increase in difficulty with both the province number and round number. It's true that the losses increase in higher provinces even with the same difficulty, but the number of provinces we complete should not depend on the number of available provinces. However the increase in difficulty looks too steep, though I don't have practical experience for this. The 150%+ difficulty at province 20 round 1 currently should appear somewhere around round 30, if not 40.
 
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Pauly7

Well-Known Member
I'm fine with this in principle (this is a strategy game after all), but what's making the formula unfair is that there is no way to place an expansion back into inventory or reduce AW levels somehow. I think there should be a spell for putting expansions into inventory, which can be 10x as rare as a teleport, say.
I like the idea, but if this system is going to go to Live as is (which I really hope it doesn't) then it shouldn't be a rare spell. People should be able to reduce any of their AW levels for free and get a KP refund for the investment. Expansions should be able to be returned with a refund of diamonds, in the case of premium expansions. To me this would seem like the right thing to do as people may have spent their money in order to increase their power in tournaments... I'm not saying it would be 100% of that which was spent because players have already gotten a good deal of use from them, but maybe 50%
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
I think it's a shame that 11 to 19 chests only gives 10KP and one RR.
no 10 chest gives 30KP, rune, RR and blueprint
It takes several points to take the next 9 chests, but not much you get for it.
With the new system's exponantial difficulty I'm actualy glad, that the chests 11-19 are not better. So I don't have to worry if our fs don't get them. And I don't have to feel bad for our FS having too many too advanced players - therefore we have zero chance to ever reach chest 19 in the new system.

Seriously, isn't a main point of the tournament to get the extra kp to level AWs?
Apart from KPs there are also relics for maintaining 24/7 production of spells with MA lv 5 - for example for MM spell you need over 7K points in 2 out of 9 tournaments to get enough relics to sustain their numbers.
There are also runes for new AWs (with the new system I hope most of them will be useless, so I won't hurt my tournaments even more with building them).

there is always the option not to play the tournaments
There is also another option, continue playing tournaments (to get the 10th chest BP), but stop caring about individual tournament results.
I'm just getting used to the fact, that with the new system my average tournament score will decline with each new chapter/wonder level/expansion (and over time I'll stop belonging to the top tournament players). After the initial shock of my points fall, there are still several chapters before my city will be unable to do even the 1600 points, by that time serious rework will be needed, otherwise there will be almost no endgame players left to play the new chapters (by the time tournaments become totaly unplayable for me, it will also become unplayable for majority of endgame players).
 
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Arthus

Well-Known Member
Just give us separate productions for all 3 military buildings, we won't have enough army to fight if spire and tournament will be both this expensive...
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
Still I don't understand:
- today with 4k points it is impossible to get in top 100 in tournaments, but, at least, you get KPs to do the races in 4-5 months (without upgrading AWs in the meanwhile)
- "tomorrow" it will be impossible to do 4k points so it will remain impossible to get in top 100 in tournaments, but you will not get the KPs to do the races (and it will take quite more than 6 months to do them) and you will be completely unable to upgrade AWs. To add more, also the very strong end-gamers will not be happy, as clearly stated in this thread.

There will be a lot of unhappy end-gamers in the real worlds, but I don't understand what INNO will gain from all this unhappiness :-( Do you have any clue about it? To me it seems a LOSE-LOSE-LOSE situation. Nobody will benefit because also non end-gamers will gain something only at the beginning, just to lose it as soon as they advance in the game.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
What a payday from this tournament... Doubled my goods from teammate giving them away because of quitting because 3 weeks was enough to fix this. He gave a time limit of 3 weeks and now he's gone.

Thanks for costing our FS a very good player.

Ok, played to what my resources allow and there is zero special about the tournament now and the kp is a pittance of what was possible before.
 

T6583

Member
Mmm ... 5 different types of units????? Is this the "adjustment"?

View attachment 7687
I had the same thing happen to me today too. At first I had no idea which troops I should select. Then I was thankful for the troop instants that allowed me to have 1 of each myself and went in with that. If it wasn’t for the event I wouldn’t have been able to complete that province because I didn’t have the goods needed to cater it. 73D123F3-2A0F-4DCD-8EB8-39BEEB229315.jpeg
 

Vidar

Member
This hasn't even hit the live worlds and it's already affecting my live world decisions. I just built the Spire Library over there and was going to start working on upgrading it.. but now I'm not sure if I should, as upgrading it will hurt my tournament play.. I'm done with chapter 16 and I don't know what I'm going to be trying to get Kp for. I guess just to upgrade "military Aw's"? My city here is small and the changes have little effect on it. So I can't really give proper feedback on it.. but if players with bigger cities don't like the changes then I know my city in US2 Winyandor and my ship over there, where we upgrade Aw's all the time, are not going to be in favor of them. The only 2 positives that I can see are removing the SSU's from the formula and the one fight per province.. other than that.. when players are quitting and debating selling off AW's that's a change that shouldn't be made. IMHO.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
Well INNO goofed up.
Let´s say. that the player weapons 2 years ago was equal to american civil war.
Players complain, that the event rewards are near to worthless.
AHA!! Inno says: Lets give them uzies and bazookas (Fire phoenix), fully automated ammo factories (brown bears), and make a wonder, that gives Helicopters (Timewarp). That must stop their complaints!
Oh it didn´t. Lets throw in some kevlar vests too (dwarf weapon smith).
Hmmm it seems like the south has conquered the north in 12 hours.
That was not our intension!
It was totally unforseeable!
What to do, what to do?
AHA!! Inno says again: Lets punish the ones, who sharpened their daggers, and plowed their fields. That must be the reason!!
Oh we could also give some better weapons to the soldiers defending northern heartland.
But punishing the ones, who improve their army and production, is still first priority!
 

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
This hasn't even hit the live worlds and it's already affecting my live world decisions.
Same for me. And what is even worse: I see a lot of people in my fellowship filling wonders which are definitely wonders that will harm them if this should hit live without a serious rework. Being Archmage I should inform them in more detail than I did so far to prevent them from doing this - but this might create quite some unrest in my fellowship because there are players who are very happy with the announced changes in general and are eager to try the new tournament but will be extremely unhappy when they learn how space and especially wonder levels will impact their troop size.

I am still happy that Inno is taking a lot of time for this update but penalyzing wonders and effectively killing the main reason to play elvenar (generating many WP and filling wonders in order to get stronger) for a lot of advanced players is like hanging the sword of damocles over our heads and it would be really helpful if Inno could take that away ASAP before more players start to run because of it!