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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

DeletedUser2803

Guest
not really, it's the base multiplication factor, I don't know but I never had to fight with so big squads
Base multiplication and growth are 2 different things. The growth is the same, just the base is different now. Also I assume you are one of the smart players who skipped all optional squad size technologies. Players who didn't skip them (probably most players do not have this secret knowledge) will proably have lower squad size now.
 

Lord Soth

Well-Known Member
...Also I assume you are one of the smart players who skipped all optional squad size technologies. Players who didn't skip them (probably most players do not have this secret knowledge) will proably have lower squad size now.
(Optional) squad size tech has no influence on tourny squad size, see announcement:
Furthermore, researched (optional) Squad Size Upgrade technologies will no longer make Tournament participation more expensive.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Other tournaments are a little bit ahrder but still I can easily keep up with the losses without using any brown bear, time boosters or anything else. Just regular production of troops in barracks.
Do you use manual fighting to reduce your losses ? During a discussion last March about how much stronger was fighting vs. catering, I recorded my losses in dust tournament. Fighting 35 provinces to 2*, with Fire phoenix + DA, I recorded 183 squads lost, which was what I produced in barracks + AWs per week. (In a end Chapter 15 city, with military wonders at L6 and squad size of 3699 as I took optional upgrades until chapter 13.)
 

DeletedUser1953

Guest
On other game, when you change the rules, you have some respec, it is more important if you take a lot of time to make your dev (elvenar need 12-24 months) but i do not see any information about "respec" possibilities like change in AW (teleport, revert level), change the level of academy, change the number of extensions, ....
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
Optional squad size tech has no influence on tourny squad size, see announcement:
I was refering to old tournament compared to new one. If you didn't skip optional squad size technologies in old tournament, you will probably have less squad size in new tournament. If you did skip all of them, you will probably have higher squad size in new tournament.

Also remember that squad size is 4 times as big due to less encounters to begin with.
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
Do you use manual fighting to reduce your losses ? During a discussion last March about how much stronger was fighting vs. catering, I recorded my losses in dust tournament. Fighting 35 provinces to 2*, with Fire phoenix + DA, I recorded 183 squads lost, which was what I produced in barracks
No, I play auto battle on mobile. I produce 220 squads per week alone in my barracks not counting the wonders and evolution buildings. So maybe that's the difference.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Also I assume you are one of the smart players who skipped all optional squad size technologies. Players who didn't skip them (probably most players do not have this secret knowledge) will proably have lower squad size now.
Before that change for my city in chapter 15:
Max squad size available is 4626 => starting SS is 231
I'm in the middle if that chapter and have not researched any SS in it - max from previous chapters = 3984 => starting SS is 200
"Skip all SS upgrades" = 2673 => starting SS is 134
Now: starting tournament SS is 650.
So my tournament SS is x3 times more than was possible before rebalance, and x5 more than I actually had.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Before that change for my city in chapter 15:
Max squad size available is 4626 => starting SS is 231
I'm in the middle if that chapter and have not researched any SS in it - max from previous chapters = 3984 => starting SS is 200
"Skip all SS upgrades" = 2673 => starting SS is 134
Now: starting tournament SS is 650.
So my tournament SS is x3 times more than was possible before rebalance, and x5 more than I actually had.
That sounds fair as 4 encounters merged into 1...
 

Dreadlust

Member
Given that nowadays people buys more smartphones than computers, it's reasonable to say that there are more chances of new players coming from the mobile platform than from the browser's one. I think Inno has made very good changes to improve the mobile's gameplay in recent years. The addition of personal/FS messenger, AW's from FS players, the jump from one factory to another to speed up production, same with the global button for all the workshops, and many others things. But there is one aspect that has remained mostly untouched and is the auto-fight feature. The only information that the game gives you before sending your troops to a fight is: 1) Who you are facing and 2) The position slot from where each of those enemies starts the fight. And that's it. Whatever happens after you press the fight button is unknown. The result of the fight can be expectable or higly incoherent based on factors that you cannot see from the mobile, like the terrain obstacles.
Now that we will be beting larger squad sizes against even larger enemies squads in battles, it becomes more necessary than before that you provide more details of whats going on in auto-fights. Some kind of thumbnail image showing the battlefield chosen for the fight would be much welcomed, so you won't lose 10 hours of units production in a single fight because you placed 5 treants in an unseen bottleneck.
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
No, I play auto battle on mobile. I produce 220 squads per week alone in my barracks not counting the wonders and evolution buildings. So maybe that's the difference.
Maybe we are all speaking of different numbers :-( Top Squad size is 5316 and I wish I knew how can anybody produce 220 squads in a week in barracks only :) My barracks are not yet at top (Level 35), but with Needles at Level 8 and Simia at Level 8 to produce 1,4 squad it takes 2h23m this means 98,7 squads a week :-( I think we should try to "normalize" our numbers to try to understand each other :)
 

Skillpowers

Active Member
Maybe we are all speaking of different numbers :-( Top Squad size is 5316 and I wish I knew how can anybody produce 220 squads in a week in barracks only :) My barracks are not yet at top (Level 35), but with Needles at Level 8 and Simia at Level 8 to produce 1,4 squad it takes 2h23m this means 98,7 squads a week :-( I think we should try to "normalize" our numbers to try to understand each other :)
timers from the spire probally.
 

DeletedUser2803

Guest
Top Squad size is 5316
My squad size is 2811 so far. Maybe I wasn't clear in my communication. With "free" I meant without spending any diamonds. Obviously I use what the game gives me in terms of boosts from events and spire. But as I get those for free as well, it is still for free. My troops and resources would pile up and I had no way to spend them^^

But considering the amount of KP you get without tournament (168) I think it is a lot of additional KP without ever spending money. 135 alone from 10 chests. Plus hundreds from provinces. I have been in a lot of fellwoships where nobody did tournament. Those were active players. They logged in daily. Made every day neighborly help. Wrote in chat. But they simply thought tournament to be too hard. So consider that a lot of players have only a fraction of the KP you or me have. It seems that the gap is closed now a little bit. Though players like you and me will still do way more points than those casual players.

I remember when Spire got released (that uses the same forumla apparently) everyone complained about it being way to hard. And I even read some people here in the thread who claim the spire would be way too hard. Yet when I look at my current top 5 fellowship they wrote a 10 page long message thread about how important it is to do the spire and that all of us should do all 3 stages every week because you get way more out of it that you have to put in (e.g. by reinvesting time boosters into units). So... it appears that somehow spire is super important to do according to the top players in my guild yet in this thread players claim the spire would be way to hard. Somehow doesn't fit.

Btw. I have a lot of premium expansions (the only thing I spend my diamonds on) and I never had any trouble to reach stage 3 in spire. I didn't max out my wonders yet but they aren't low levels either.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Anec We have truly different definition of "free"
Wait until ch16 and it's 250KPs researches. Doing them without extra KPs from tourney is a boring neverending nightmare and by now you would still be somewhere in the middle of the chapter.

Spire is easy story, the added FS rewards and removed time instants from events, so Spire is their primary source and without them you have zero chance for top tournament score (before and after the change).
And yes it's hard (especialy 3rd floor) and even now I'm thinking how long before I have to give up of the 3rd floor thx to the exponential increase of costs (now after finishing Embassies the only problem is coins, but when next chapter begins, other goods will be a problem too). And no, I cannot afford to use any temp. buildings for Spire (without them the Spire's several waves are mostly unfightable) since thx to the new tournament system I'lll have to use them all to get needed relics for crafting spells (so spend them all during 2 tourneys out of 9).
 

maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
when I said ss growth is too fast, here is what I had in mind
province 9, 5th round
my squad size is 9138, so more than 45000 units to field this one province.
My production is around 7000/2h. So I need 13h to prepare for just 1 battle! That's crazy! And that's just province 9!

edit: province 13 is 12028, which I need 17h to bring to life. 30h for 2 battles. hum...

After a bit of calculations, my 7 days of production would be totally used up playing 16 provinces on 5 rounds (provided I win the fights, which isn't trivial). With no other sort of fights (spire, provinces), that would be kind of a hard limit.
 
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HolyElf

Well-Known Member
@Anec spire is not yet but has the potential to grow into a monster for you.
here are some numbers for you to understand. Totally for 3 levels you send 775 spire squads.Your spire squads(your SS at very first battle) at chapter 16 will be roughly 1.3 x your province squad size. So you will send 1007 of your squads to battle. And we all lose close to 30% of troops battling. So 302 squads consumed each week just for spire.
And the FS chests give 33x5 hours of instants = 6.875 days. Say you train 30 squads per day, that’s 206 squads per week, from those instants. (Bears help a bit, but since we have communicated strongly that only casual players need to be satiated).
So you can see there are cases where you’d very soon break even and/or consume more than the rewards from the spire.
Reason : The current formula with each factor being multiplicative, and Tech being an exponential component, can very soon cascade into an avalanche.
I do understand the trend where people lower in tech tree and doing 1600 points supporting the system. But I’m sure they will hit the slope very soon.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
For those that claim they should keep the old formula, this one also has an exponential growth curve, and it's already at the end of it's shelf life.
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When chapter 16 was released quite some players already noticed that the "improvement" from the chapter wasn't "worth it" from a tournament perspective, as no unit improvements where implemented to camouflage this increased growth rate

It's just about time they find a good solution, and not as @Dony suggested one that last another 2 years.
You do not want to overhaul the system every single time, and each time it will be harder to balance all the chapters properly.

Let them do the groundwork that works once and for all.
For me that is not a basic formula but a system you can more customise to each chapter / research.

For me this means a customisable system. each chapter gets a value based on it's "improvement"
This value is then divided between all mandatory researches of that chapter.

Your difficulty is then literally the sum of all "unlocked values"

This allows a very flexible system, they want a less tournament focussed chapter, add lower values, a chapter has many improvements? add higher values.
This way you can always back up the promise that the increase always outweights the penalty.
It turns out that at chapter X it's to easy, upgrade the "hidden" values, it shows at a chapter the results are lower than expected, lower the "hidden" values.

It's a flexible system that makes sense, is future proof, and allows a lot of customisation where it does not force the developers to go 1 route because of pressures from all sides.
And yes this indirectly includes stuff like expansions and wonderlevels as you can incorporate the improvements a players is expected to have.
But it still allows players to customise there town, and spend as much money in the game without drawbacks.

Buying 30 expansions in chapter one (just because you can) or going nuts in some wonders will not result in an unplayable game for the next way to many chapters!