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Spire squad size calc - we need your data!

  • Thread starter Deleted User - 81190
  • Start date

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
Alright, so there were many questions and speculations about how Spire squad sizes are calculated. As far as I can tell, the calculation was never disclosed, except for statements that many different things have an impact on that - including total AW levels. Over the last few months we've been collecting some data on the Spire, trying to figure out what the dependencies are. And we always can use more data!

Model v5.0: https://minmaxgame.com/spire-squad-size-model-v5-0/
Google Sheets calculator for the Model v5.0


I am looking for volunteers who can collect some data on the Spire over a period of time, and either post it here or send it to me via a PM. It's not a lot of work - you just need to record a few numbers once a week, when Spire appears on Sunday (as all Spire numbers are fixed when it spawns). But the real value is in consistent observations over a few weeks in the same city.

So here are the things that I am looking for (so far):
Code:
chapter/ MH level / Open provinces / AW levels / SS size / Total placed expansions [ResearchExp : Premium Exp] / Total unlocked mandatory research => own Spire squad size / enemy Spire squad size [date]

So one weekly observation may look like this:
Code:
16 / 35 / 440 / 197 / 2730 / 120 [47:9] / 390 => 3316 / 1473 [2020-05-10]

If you can, report from the higher levels encounters - the higher the numbers, the better. Just make a note of which encounter you're reporting from. But this is not super important (more important for lower level cities), you can report from just the first encounter. This means you don't even have to play the Spire at all in order to contribute. Number of provinces is likely not important, but I keep it there in case we'll need it (and to do some error checking on number of provinces). Timing, on the other hand, is important - take a weekly snapshot as close to the Spire spawning (Sunday 10am Eastern) as possible.

Many of the numbers on the left side can be seen in tooltips in the trader seeds calculation (if you have Advanced Trader), as well as in updated Elvenstats data (make sure it is updated!)
  • Total number of unlocked mandatory tech items
    • A tricky one, but details on how to calculate it are here ;)
    • Bonus points for identifying current state of the research with a screenshot, and list all the skipped research items in previous chapters)
  • Split of placed expansions between map/research/premium

Now, to make things much more helpful, you can try to keep as many variables on the left as possible constant week over week - at least over 2 weeks. That's probably only realistic for end-game players; those in this position can keep chapter / MH level and SS size constant easily (maxed out), and if you can postpone opening new provinces for some time (scouting is still fine), that would leave only AW levels as a variable (that's what I've been doing for a while). That would be super helpful. But all results would help, even though with multiple variable changing it may take much longer to figure out the dependencies.

We're also expanding our dataset with more targeted experiments. Our weekly data samples of the real cities are great for control purposes, but it will be hard to get more insights without ability to nudge only specific parameters - which is hard in live cities. So what I am looking for are some dormant / inactive / frozen cities that you have access to. It's for science! ;) So here are the requirements:
- Access to Spire, so chapter 3+
- Ability to make no changes to the city except for the ones that are part of the experiment - for a few weeks
- No changes means no research, no new expansions, no construction / upgrades
- Production / collection, scouting, map negotiation, tournament playing, KP donations are all fine! (but the less activity there is, the better)
- You do NOT need to actually play the Spire (but you can if you want to, it doesn't seem to have any impact)
- Ability to do some research/place some AWs and/or expansions (but there are some experiments that don't require that)

Abandoned cities would work great for that; so would diamond farms.

- Place some KPs into research, but don't unlock it
- Unlock some research without donating any KPs
- Build 1x L1 AW (different ones)
- Upgrade 1x AW (different ones)
- Place 1x (or more) expansions
- Upgrade Main Hall
- There could be more, depending on results

So if you have access to such city(-ies), message me and we can figure out what's the best experiment for what you have (and what's needed). And remember - it is all for science! ;)

Also, looking for a few more people with 300+ total AW levels in the end game for a few more usual datapoints. This, as usual, can be private.

Thanks for your help!
 
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Karvest

Well-Known Member
As far as I remember, each learned tech increase costs, chapter itself affects only resources list for convince.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
As far as I remember, each learned tech increase costs, chapter itself affects only resources list for convince.
Probably, but these data points would be hard to collect and use. That's why end-game players are much better target overall (for now), as a lot of things for them are the same.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
There is a simple way to get amount of techs which have at least one KP invested:
just open dev tools and open tech tree, you sill see something like
1584297929321.png
361 here - number of techs which have at least one KP invested.
number of actually learned techs is a bit more tricky to get - need to filter that array by is_paid: true
Not sure which number is actually used in spire SS calc.
 

Deleted User - 62044

Guest
random , just random like all loteries in the game, a random number
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
There is a simple way to get amount of techs which have at least one KP invested:
just open dev tools and open tech tree, you sill see something like
Yeah, I am aware if this, but I don't expect many people to report on those numbers - too much work involved ;) Not to mention, that it is not clear what it is that is being used - could be number of completed techs, open techs, total contributed KPs etc. One would need to have a history of the whole structure to figure that out, and it is best done when other variables are taken care for. So research impact can perhaps be done at a (much) later stage.
 

Ainor

Well-Known Member
beta: cap XV / MH 33 / completed provinces 410 / AWlevels 110 / SS 3270 >>first spire encounter 2396 vs. 1064 ['20-03-31]

live1: cap XV / MH 35 / completed provinces 433 / AWlevels 184 / SS 3573 >>first spire encounter 3108 vs. 1380 ['20-03-31]

live2: cap III / MH 5 / completed provinces 33 / AWlevels 17 / SS 99 >>first spire encounter 63 vs. 28 ['20-03-31]
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
beta: cap XV / MH 33 / completed provinces 410 / AWlevels 110 / SS 3270 >>first spire encounter 2396 vs. 1064 ['20-03-31]

live1: cap XV / MH 35 / completed provinces 433 / AWlevels 184 / SS 3573 >>first spire encounter 3108 vs. 1380 ['20-03-31]

live2: cap III / MH 5 / completed provinces 33 / AWlevels 17 / SS 99 >>first spire encounter 63 vs. 28 ['20-03-31]
Thanks! I have made an update to the original post - it turns out we'll need at least one other piece of data, and that's the number of unlocked expansions (see the original post on how to find it). Can you confirm that these are 110, 120 and 22 respectively?
 

Ainor

Well-Known Member
Thanks! I have made an update to the original post - it turns out we'll need at least one other piece of data, and that's the number of unlocked expansions (see the original post on how to find it). Can you confirm that these are 110, 120 and 22 respectively?
yes, they are

live1: cap XV / MH 35 / completed provinces 433 / AWlevels 185 / SS 3573 / expansions 120 >>first spire encounter 3120 vs. 1386 ['20-04-05]
live2: cap III / MH 6 / completed provinces 33 / AWlevels 17 / SS 99 / expansions 22 >>first spire encounter 65 vs. 29 ['20-04-05]
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
live2: cap III / MH 6 / completed provinces 33 / AWlevels 17 / SS 99 / expansions 22 >>first spire encounter 65 vs. 29 ['20-04-05]
Thanks. Have you done any research in this city by any chance?
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
are you sure the level of the main hall doesn't have an impact?
Almost certain. I have at least one relatively sizable city that did a clean experiment of only advancing MH by 1 level, and this led to no changes in SSS. In other cases MH upgrades was with tied in with something else, but I didn't see any unexpected jumps either.

Even if there is an effect, it has to be fairly small, to be rounded out.
 

maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
my hypothesis was that the number of expansions was multiplied by the level of the main hall.
I suppose it's ruled out, by your datas

I guess I could experiment sometime with low level cities, to give some other insight.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
I can't tell you exactly, but my girlfriend didn't improve AW, nor did the city just buy magic workshops and trade them for normal ones. The number of buildings and the size of the city were the same, yet the tower seemed to be more expensive for her.

I can't give numbers and nothing, a similar feeling of price increases after the construction of magical buildings from the tower has noticed us more.


Personally, I came to the conclusion that the tower is affected by the sum of the production of coins, hammers and raw materials.
 
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maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
1 more datapoint :
atlasgladiator, 5th era,
T = 97
E=61 / v = 54
P=7
A=77
S=192

theoretical SS0 = 371
real SS0 = 354

edited : i forgot 2 techs
 
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