Discussion Spire of Eternity

[maxiqbert]

What exactly is the problem with the battle system? It reminds me of the old classics like Heroes of Might and Magic. That's not original, but that's not bad either.

"I punch you first, then you punch me, then back to me punching you" is the essence of turn-based combat. Is it that you want real-time combat?

serious lack of option, that's the problem
I love the HoMM system, but check again, and enjoy the various options there (waiting, for instance, when your initiative is high, you can fight first or last, at your leisure)

 

[palmira]

The only problem I see with the fighting here is the auto fight system that really sucks compared to manual fighting. There shouldn't be such a huge difference between manual and auto fighting, specially considering the time it takes for a manual fight. And that is basically the problem with the spire: most fights are designed to be (barely) won only in manual, that takes a lot of time so they increased dramatically the squad sizes as not to have 3 or fights per chest meaning the feature is a waste of troops for auto fighters that can't, by design, win more then a few fights for chests, loosing in the process a truckload of troops.

So for auto fighters like me (and for everybody on the app) the spire is an absolute no at least until we can evaluate the negotiation part.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

The only problem I see with the fighting here is the auto fight system that really sucks compared to manual fighting. There shouldn't be such a huge difference between manual and auto fighting, specially considering the time it takes for a manual fight. And that is basically the problem with the spire: most fights are designed to be (barely) won only in manual, that takes a lot of time so they increased dramatically the squad sizes as not to have 3 or fights per chest meaning the feature is a waste of troops for auto fighters that can't, by design, win more then a few fights for chests, loosing in the process a truckload of troops.

So for auto fighters like me (and for everybody on the app) the spire is an absolute no at least until we can evaluate the negotiation part.

the problem with a great auto combat, is that it makes the enemy a great fighter aswell.
we tried long ago to get them to improve the auto, but quickly realised it wasnt in our benefit.

Well its great when you are outnumbering the enemy, since then less losses. But when the enemy is outnumbering you, then it means more losses.
Now in tournament, 4 out of 6 rounds, the enemy outnumber you, so we quickly stopped asking them to make auto better.....

 

[DeletedUser]

What exactly is the problem with the battle system? It reminds me of the old classics like Heroes of Might and Magic. That's not original, but that's not bad either.

I think you answered your own question @ekarat "old classic"
How about adding combination classes-tank healing class, delish. The spire is a terrific place to add battles that take more strategy because there aren't many battles. People are having a lot of losses, that doesn't say to me, we all suck but something with the battle system needs to change. Maybe that's where Inno is headed, I certainly hope so.

The team who designed the building strategy, did a fantastic job, it's quite brilliant. They need to put that same kind of thought into the battle system.

 

[palmira]

the problem with a great auto combat, is that it makes the enemy a great fighter aswell.
we tried long ago to get them to improve the auto, but quickly realised it wasnt in our benefit.

Well its great when you are outnumbering the enemy, since then less losses. But when the enemy is outnumbering you, then it means more losses.
Now in tournament, 4 out of 6 rounds, the enemy outnumber you, so we quickly stopped asking them to make auto better.....

So basically what you are saying is that there is a fundamental flaw in the fighting design: it was designed for manual fighting when the only fights happening were in the provinces, in rare ocasions. Now that we have a lot of fighting to do, and some people only play on the app where there is no manual option, the fighting system is inadequate. And keeping adding more fighting features without a major change is not a good idea.

 

[maxiqbert]

I would do manual fights, if it wasn't so tedious
I very much enjoyed the fights in HoMM and some other turn based games. But a tiny map, no strategical options, no tactical options, no direct intervention (a spell or something like that would be great), make the elvenar manual fights totally uninteresting.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

So basically what you are saying is that there is a fundamental flaw in the fighting design: it was designed for manual fighting when the only fights happening were in the provinces, in rare ocasions. Now that we have a lot of fighting to do, and some people only play on the app where there is no manual option, the fighting system is inadequate. And keeping adding more fighting features without a major change is not a good idea.

Yep, the current battle system is very flawed, and the Spire makes that obvious. I mean, look at what you have:
- each type of unit has a bonus (attack and/or defense) versus two of the other unit types, is neutral towards its own type, and is at a disadvantage against the other two unit types (they get a bonus against)
- there are just 3 (three!) unit abilities – decrease the target's damage by X% for Y rounds, decrease the target's defense by X% for Y rounds, and retaliate X number of times if the attacker is within range. That's it. And units are limited to just two abilities – that's why the final version of the Thornrose Mage loses its Retaliation

Are there any units or spells that can buff your own units? No, all buffs come from buildings and AWs. Are there units or spells that can heal your units? No, healing is only done via Diamonds. Are there ANY combat spells? No, all spells are out-of-combat only.

Want to buff your units' attack? Build AWs and some temporary buildings.
Want to buff your units' defense? Not possible.
Want to increase the speed of one or more of your units? Not possible.
Want to decrease the speed of one or more enemy units? Not possible.
Want to use “damage over time” effects such as poison? Not possible.
Want to use direct damage spells on enemies? Not possible.
Want to have actual flying units (as that was one of the reasons given for the battle redesign)? Not possible.

Notice the pattern here?

Back when the only battles were on the World Map and in the Tournaments it wasn't that bad. But now we have the Spire, with its 2-wave (and even 3-wave) battles and large squad sizes (leading to large losses of units) and the deficiencies of the combat system are now a lot more of an issue. And it will only get worse if they add a fourth place to battle, namely Fellowship Adventures (I seem to recall that FAs involving battles were mentioned as a possibility long ago).

It doesn't help that even at max speed that battles are rather slow-going, and that makes them quite boring.

Last, but not least, the battlefields. Some battlefields outright screw you over, leading either to losing a battle that should have been a victory, or winning but with much greater losses than in most cases. Nothing has been done about this, despite the fact it has been brought up numerous times.

 

[DeletedUser]

One last thought, even if manual fights were longer but took more strategy it might actually feel like a dungeon. I like manual battles, they put a lot of time into animations (this in itself sets Elvenar apart from its competition) and it's fun to watch my units. Spells, new battle animations, new combat units, would be very cool. And this is partly why I suggested that they should have rolled this out with another new feature like an amethyst phoenix.

I'm glad they let us play with it, it really felt like beta. Now that we know they may do this in the future we can all approach it as it's just that a new feature coming to the game that needs work, feedback and tweaks. Thanks Inno.

 

[ULISE]

When can we use manual combat?

 

[DeletedUser]

I had two more thoughts... This is for people who want to play the spire faster, how about if the gates are opened with knowledge points? Time instants are so valuable and if someone is sitting at a top chapter without much to do with their kps or even the aw instants it could be an option?

Maybe this could even be a 3rd option somehow, that you use knowledge points to by pass encounters. It could be a combination of things needed. KPS, units and maybe even some spire badges like the fs adventures. I like complicated, so maybe spire badges are made using a combination of all 3 tier goods?

The reasoning behind this comes from the events, when you're stuck and no where to spend kps versus adding kps to a random persons wonder.

 

[Angedev]

without much to do with their kps

I can't imagine that situation. I'am at the end for a long time and I think I will never have enough KPs for my AWs.

 

[Lovec Krys]

@soleil Everyone, who is at the end of the last chapter, uses it's KPs for wonders.

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay I was suggesting this in hopes wonders would be upgraded differently as well. That they are evolved somehow like our new buildings and kps are used differently. And then maybe some spire gifts could be ancient wonder artifacts that still can be used on your wonder or another persons wonder.

 

[Dony]

And then maybe some spire gifts could be ancient wonder artifacts that still can be used on your wonder

we have rune shards for that, no point inventing the Wheel if its already invented

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

So the Spire is not there when it is not active. That seems... odd. In my opinion it should always be there. When it is not active we should be able to click on the Spire to see the time left until it becomes available again. Similar to how in FoE we can visit the Guild Expedition map to see how long until the next GE starts, but can't do anything else there.

The Spire not disappearing when inacitve will also prevent any confusion and false bug reports from new players who do not know that it vanishes when inactive.

 

[DeletedUser724]

The AI battle system is about right
if you want to reduce time spent, u use "auto fight", which give u more lost and time shorten
if u want to reduce soldier lost, u use :manual fight", which u spend more time with lesser lost

There is no advantage on both sides
if u give "lesser lost" in "auto fight", no one will do "manual fight", then "game over" in manual-fight
it is the problem of ..whether the "lost" is acceptable while doing auto -fight

Regarding "spire of eternity", a test in manual fight appear ok for me in the first four round of level 1
the loss is acceptable in manual fight
However, the amount of soldier deploy is not ok
if you play "spire of eternity", u will hold up and never complete it as all your soldiers already reach HELL
even I play the first four, I end up with problem of Playing "tournament"

It is matter of Playing "tournament" of "spire of eternity"
I will choose tournament as I can reach my targets and with sufficient army for future tournament

while playing too deep into "spire of eternity", the damage is ---I end up with no soldiers leave behind
for current and future tournament,
I may stay free of our battlest ..just spending several months to recruit soldier back to continue tournament (never touch "spire of eternity" again)

I think I reach a conclusion that
to play "spire of eternity", player may need to raise all ( not 1) war-related AW to level 30 or even above it
this is not a normal player can do
it is also not worth with those chest box in "spire of eternity"

if u want to play "spire of eternity", player should consider a "STOP point" which u should not proceed as further involving will lead to great damage of your soldier which u stored for tournament

 

[DeletedUser]

we have rune shards for that, no point inventing the Wheel if its already invented

We are in beta, with the new buildings they changed how we upgrade buildings (evolve/rr spells) if they use this terrific way to upgrade wonders it wouldn't be a slog-fest to upgrade them. Artifacts/Aw instants plus runes for every 5 levels (can't recall what levels you need runes)
Having ancient wonder artifacts as gifts for the spire or any event/activity gives a worthwhile reason to participate in the event. Then we change it to needing 1 artifact each level and runes for the every 5th level.(repeated if wonders are upgraded beyond 5) I started a thread about this, if you'd like to participate and brainstorm. I'm not exactly sure if we would even need aw instants if this were in place.

@conqueror9 I agree with you, people should decide their stop points and upgrading wonders is important. I don't believe the spire was meant to be a stand alone activity that you try to complete each week. I think the same for tournaments. Use it when you need it. But still think the battling needs to change or change for the next new activity they come up with. My question still stands on why at chapter 3 we're given the needles and it has no affect on spire. Maybe each week the units change and my needles will still come into play.

 

[Loki Blue]

if u want to play "spire of eternity", player should consider a "STOP point" which u should not proceed

Completely agree. Determine ahead of time just how much that end prize (any of the prizes, actually) is really worth.

 

[Lovec Krys]

@soleil The best time to upgrade wonders is at the end of tech tree, especialy now with Timewarp and Simia Sapiens wonders (both great help with tournaments).

As I stated before, the Spire has ended for me when I realised I have to choose between it and tournament (I usualy play tournament until I'm out of the specific soldiers used in the tourney (in some occasions I may even choose to empty my goods reserves to get more points)).

 

[DeletedUser]

@Lovec Krys interestingly enough, for chapter 4 I'm upgrading them at the end, but for my chapter 3 city mostly at the beginning.

I know tournaments are a sore subject, but I don't think you have to choose. You just can't do all of both. Personally, I'd like the 3rd option I suggested because that is what my city is geared for. Option 1 - seems more geared towards boosted only players Option 2 - Military heavy cities and Option 3 Players with all factories. Maybe if they came out with a 3rd option, you wouldn't have to choose. So Lovec, what kind of 3rd option would work for you? You're good at brainstorming, come up with an idea.