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Discussion Spire of Eternity

Angeduciel

Well-Known Member
Just tried the spire diplomatic approach and here is my feedback. I love the mini master game concept. I agree with @Mykan , we need less combinations or more chances to make this attractive. The prizes are simply awful!!! I played for fun here on my beta city, but I won't spend anything on my live game if the prizes are not improved. I am sick of seeing % of chance to win something and never get what I need/like. Maybe to improve this game (and sorry if it was mentionned already, I did not read all the previous comments), if we could pick which prize we want to play for, and then the negociation costs would be adjusted accordingly...i.e. higher costs for more attractive items (instead of lower percentage to win). Food for thoughts...
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
I won't even try the negotiation: simple math says with 5 goods the odds say I loose a huge amount of goods to no avail so the spire will remain a nice feature in the background.
 
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UlyssesBlue

Well-Known Member
I've now had a bit more of a chance to play the spire, and the new negotiate option has allowed me to get much further that I could previously. I used to struggle to get half way through map 1, now I'm well into map 2. For context, I am a chapter 4 player. These are my impressions of it in its current form, which seems to be reasonably complete:

- The concept itself is fine, and the mini-games are fun, but some significant balancing changes are needed.

- Both the negotiation and the fighting are far too expensive. They should be more similar to the tournament in costs and difficulty.

- Once you're on to the really difficult negotiations where it's impossible to logic out the answer and you're instead still guessing several things on the third turn, it's very expensive because it relies on too much luck to get right, so most such chests require several attempts to get past. These should allow more than 3 turns. Alternatively, if negotiation was changed so that if you offer a spirit something they don't want they just hand it back rather than keep it, then this would significantly reduce the cost of negotiating, in which case multiple attempts to get past a chest would not be unreasonably expensive.

- The prizes do not justify the expenses or effort. Some of the offerings are fairly good, but the probability of actually getting them is far too small, while the probability of getting useless prizes is in some cases so phenomenally high as to be not worthwhile even trying for a chest.

- Coin and supply instants are still useless. If these are going to be present they should at least only have a tiny chance of being won, e.g. 10%. Not 65%. Even when I end up spending lots of coins or supplies on the spire I still don't need instants, as I can get these from other sources readily enough. I just visit a few of the inactive neighbours that I don't normally bother to visit, or do some of the cycling quests, or put my workshops on shorter productions.

- Gate timers are still far too time consuming. Either they should be shorter, or the way they're timed should be changed, such as starting the countdown earlier, rather than only when you reach the gate. If their purpose is just to create some delays to stop people bolting through the whole spire at once, then you're already achieving that when people have to take a break to build up goods or similar, and having the gates there as well is just excessive. Perhaps if the gates started their countdown as soon as you passed the previous gate? Or when you start the map?
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
@UlyssesBlue That seems like a perfect summary of the feedback we're getting from other players as well. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts so extensively and constructively, it's really appreciated. Please let the feedback come, people. We really want to know what you think :)
 

sunrae

Well-Known Member
I had thought 'convincing' was a logic puzzle as was indicated when the spire was released but no, there's very little logic to what is simply clicking all the buttons.

Definitely not playing the spire again until changes to the prizes or the costs of taking part have been made. Why play something thats going to cost you more than you gain? Because some people like to gamble, well, win or lose there are plenty of gambling/chance games out there already.

I imagine that the majority of players were attracted to this game of Elvenar for the strategic challenges that city building brings and the tournament battles and the fellowships, not just to play guessing games. The odd guess work and chance taking is fun during events, but if its going to head into a game of chance more and more then I have no interest in this kind of new feature. As it stands, the 'convincing' needs to be way more convincing.
 

slide

Well-Known Member
To me the whole spire issue looks as if Inno is trying to cater to all levels but meeting none of the requirements of doing so - those who are right at the end and waiting for the next guest race have a lot of goods, gold, supplies etc with nothing to spend them on except tournaments, so the spire is a nice sink for them but the prizes are totally rubbish - when I had big cities the last things I ever needed were coin rains or supply windfalls. Plus we have so many events coming thick and fast that its hard to see why anybody from mid game onwards wouldn't have a lot of them.

However, based on how my Chapter 4 city is in live, I'd love to have coin rains and supply windfalls as its a struggle at times to do everything I want to with what's available; but there's no way that little city can do anything in the spire as it is now, I have neither troops nor goods to spare! I want to do the tournaments with their guaranteed rewards and the kp, relics etc needed to grow my city and I'd look on the spire as being a top-up.

I stopped doing anything with the tower once I realised how many troops I lost and I was hopeful that we'd get a tournament style negotiation however its too costly for the rewards - if we're only going to get those supply windfalls or coin rains then the amount of goods used need to be a lot less, something needs to give - the quantities should be less, or there could be more rounds, or less choices.

Its interesting that when we get events often the prizes aren't worth bothering with because the reward is so low but there is little outlay on our parts except time; now we have the spire where there is significant outlay and the rewards are still low.

I've no idea why its called convincing, other than I'm "convinced" that it isn't worth bothering with the spire in its current form!
 

Avenahar

Well-Known Member
View attachment 6023
First turn and it occurred several times before with other chests. I expect at least "wrong person" so that I can change my strategy. Strategy! Not simply luck! To convince means to have a chance with every offer I make that at least one needs it. But this result is not acceptable.
"Find the right combination" is not possible, if one offer doesn't fit in any combination.

Forget what I wrote here yesterday, I was simply uninformed! :oops:
Actually the strategy is quite simple but the effort to get it is more and more difficult the higher one climb the spire. I found a tutorial on youtube about diplomacy in FoE (what I don't play) in which the strategy of diplomacy and how to convince is well explained. Knowing this now, I would never, never, never make again 5 times the same offer to all the ghosts.
In the tutorial diplomacy is compared with the good old game Master Mind. And having this in mind, it's easy to understand how to deal with it (not easy to do, but the intention is now clear!).
So, a little Master Mind like challenge in the tower is really a good idea and I think you all can now imagine, that I succeeded better in Diplomacy than yesterday. :)
If you are interested, the turorial on youtube is this:
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
i think i have a good idea of what the wonders in next chapter will do.... only sad you have to ignore 14 chapters before spire is worth doing then.
Same that its kinda sad that you need to ignore 13 chapters in tournament, before you can do 6 rounds on your own pace.
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
In the tutorial diplomacy is compared with the good old game Master Mind. And having this in mind, it's easy to understand how to deal with it (not easy to do, but the intention is now clear!).
So, a little Master Mind like challenge in the tower is really a good idea and I think you all can now imagine, that I succeeded better in Diplomacy than yesterday. :)
If you are interested, the turorial on youtube is this:

Actually, if it was like mastermind it would be great but this guessing game has nothing to do with skill and logic just dumb luck, if you want this would be like a mastermind with 5 colours and 5 positions and no restrictions so 5^5 = 3125 solutions ...and 3 tries to get the right one. Classical mastermind has 6 colours, 4 holes so 6^4= 1296 solutions and the best algorithm needs 5 guesses (no luck involved) to win. So we have a restricted number of moves and more possible solutions then in mastermind so this is a no win situation.

The tutorial just confirmed this: either you are extremely lucky or you are willing to spend diamonds; there is no alternative to win this.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Starting with 4 resources, it's 1024 possible combinations of guesses. 3125 if you start the diplomacy with 5 resources.
Starting a new chapter - scratch battling. Using diplomacy, you'll possibly waste a lot of goods to begin the encounter.
Nice to have a new activity when you can only use it depending on where you are in the chapter or you'll waste a lot of goods to do it.

I'm keeping my goods and advancing in my research by buying knowledge points with my extra goods.
 

UlyssesBlue

Well-Known Member
An issue I just noticed: if I get halfway through a negotiation and run out of goods, then the obvious solution is to go to my city, open the market, get the goods I need, then go back to finish the negotiation. It turns out if I do this the negotiation resets and I lose all the goods I spent, as well as have to start from scratch. Not sure if this is a bug or an intentional feature, but it definitely needs to be changed.
 

Deleted User - 60107

Guest
It's intended. You can't leave a negotiation in the middle to go back to town and do something, just like you can't leave a battle to do something - you either finish the battle or give up on it, accepting the losses you have suffered. Same with negotiation - either finish it or give up and accept the losses.
 

UlyssesBlue

Well-Known Member
An issue I just noticed: if I get halfway through a negotiation and run out of goods, then the obvious solution is to go to my city, open the market, get the goods I need, then go back to finish the negotiation. It turns out if I do this the negotiation resets and I lose all the goods I spent, as well as have to start from scratch. Not sure if this is a bug or an intentional feature, but it definitely needs to be changed.
It's intended. You can't leave a negotiation in the middle to go back to town and do something, just like you can't leave a battle to do something - you either finish the battle or give up on it, accepting the losses you have suffered. Same with negotiation - either finish it or give up and accept the losses.
Then at the very least there should be some indicator so that it's clear this will happen. It would also be helpful if there was a clear display of our stockpiled goods, so it's a little more obvious if we're getting low on something and so can make a point of topping up before starting the negotiation.
 

Buttrflwr

Well-Known Member
Ok, I LIKE the concept of the spire, it is a fun change of pace. HOWEVER, that being said, I think Mykan and Ulysses Blue summed it up pretty well and I agree totally with what they both stated. There is no logic in the convince, it is pure blind luck once you hit the upper levels, and there are way too many combinations and too few chances to "figure it out". I got "wrong person" 2 out of the the 3 turns. That leaves me very little leeway from there, with 4 and 5 goods to pick from. Also, as has been mentioned, if they don't want the darn goods, WHY DO THEY TAKE THEM? Greedy buggers! ;) With some more work, and taking into account all the feedback from these posts, this could be a very positive addition to the Land of Elvenar. Make it truly a game of logic, perhaps really give clues from the ghosts, not just wrong person or not needed. Challenge us intellectually, don't make it just about luck and gambling. I am not a fan of Vegas. ;)

Keep it up, ya'll are on the right track, but I need my goods and troops for tourneys, and don't like just throwing them back to the House. ;)

Peace!
 

DeletedUser724

Guest
convince price is too high
and
using diamond to activate another chance in "convince" is also high

in FoE, there is a lot way to earn free diamond so the "additional negotiation chance with diamond" does provide a good choice to player

but in elvenar, player can majority get diamond by purchase
for those who are not afford to buy diamond, that "convince become useless"
price of "goods, coins and supplies" are appears also high
regarding supplies, we always overspill, so it does not matter
but for other, some may have problems depending how to "test" in beta world

This is beta world, beta tester do not need to buy diamond to test new-game-feature
while in live world, player may need to pay to get additional advantage of the game
if inno want "beta tester" to test "spire of eternity"'s "convince" in beta world
the "diamond price" should be reduced to 1 or 0,
just put it back to correct value (in beta world and game world ) after it is launch in game (live) world
this will help "beta tester" to assess whether "coins /supplies / goods" are in-line with the player affordable region
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Since I play on beta purely to test new features, I decided yesterday to test the convince feature in the Spire. My coins and supplies storage were filled to the max before I started. I also had several diamonds from the Wishing Well and a lot of time boosters. So I went for it….

Halfway I had to leave the Spire because all my coins and supplies were spend and I had to refill my storage. Filled it up again using a lot of coins and supplies boosters, and kept going.

After the 24 hour wait (for which I used time boosters), I got so frustrated by it, that I gave up.

I spend almost 2 times a full storage of coins en supplies (I’m at the beginning of the Elements), a lot of goods, mana and seeds, several time boosters and about 450 diamonds!

Didn’t get any interesting awards (lots of coinrains, some small timeboosters, some fragments and WOW 15 diamonds).

Considering that Elvenar is an Economic City-builder game, this Spire has no place in it.The cost-benefit-ratio of this feature can only be described as a rip-off.

I will not play this feature on live, since I don’t feel the need to damage my economical balance in my city there for absolutely nothing that would give my any joy.


But what is of greater concern to me is that the need for being lucky to get result - or especially pay diamonds if you are unlucky – is being shamelessly exploited. The first few convince-confrontations can be done in 3 guesses by using logic, the later with 7 possible items and 5 ghosts to convince is no longer doable in 3 guesses by using logic, it comes down to get lucky or pay real money.

If you want this feature to go as is on live, you seriously need to reconsider the minimum age for this game. In the apple store the recommended age is 4+ for Elvenar! For me this is unacceptable since young children are not capable yet to make an informed decision about how much to spend!
 
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