Discussion Runeshard Changes

[Bor de Wolf 1965]

If I understand @Karvest right Inno already gave us an other system that is broken as well.
The Knowledge sharing perk can force you in this lockout system as well.
You can get 24x10kp a day (=240) and only give 10kp away with this system.
So after 40 days (=9377/230) you can push a player in this lockout system and they can't do a thing against it except for becoming very unpopular.

 

[Karvest]

Seems limit is increased by 80 every day (at the time when resources decay).
Everything you do with your own AW is irrelevant to this feature.
I guess free KP from perk is also included in balance. and getting free KP from the whole FS to a single player every day is actually a pushing which they are fighting with.

 

[Marindor]

Guys, this thread is for feedback about the Runeshard changes, not for pushing limitations, even though you might hit them sooner now during times where you start donating all the excess Runes you've gathered so far. Please stay on topic here and keep it about the changes in the use of Runeshards and not derive too much in depth about pushing, thank you.

 

[little bee]

Guys, this thread is for feedback about the Runeshard changes, not for pushing limitations, even though you might hit them sooner now during times where you start donating all the excess Runes you've gathered so far. Please stay on topic here and keep it about the changes in the use of Runeshards and not derive too much in depth about pushing, thank you.

Unfortunately, the pushing prevention suddenly becoming relevant for non-pushers is very much on subject. To make it clear: The new changes to the runesystem will suddenly introduce a huge amount of AWKP into the game. This will cause sudden and huge amount of KP being spend, most likely with some sort of imbalance. As a result a large number of players will be flaged as pushers, despite only behaving naturally. Whether or not this is inteded by the developers or not, is irrelevant. It is a logical consequence from the rune changes and therefore should be discussed as a part of this change.

As I have said before, I belive that it is a mistake to throw so many AWKP into the game all at once. But if INNO does this, they should at least be open with the relevant formulas, so that we can predict the resulting problems and act to prevent them. Otherwise the first thing that this change will bring is the complete collaps of every KP-sharing system in the game.

 

[Bor de Wolf 1965]

Sorry @Marindor , but if you change one system in the game then every thing it influences it, positive or negative, is part of the discussion of the change.

Now we know you can help a new player by levelling his/her AWs and hurt them at the same time by creating a pushing lockout.
We also know we can hurt them by using up the few Rune shards they have in to a return donating kp to prevent the lockout or using them for the level 5->6 upgrades, to early in the game.
So if I look at this change, the only players that can really benefit from this change are long time players in high chapters, for they can return the donations and have enough rune shards for the level 5->6 upgrades as well.

On a side note, make use of the knowledge that a player from chapter 10-19 can't be seen as a pushing account towards a player in chapter 3-7 or higher as long as they are 2 or more chapters above the receiver of this aid.

 

[Marindor]

Still, this thread is not meant as an in depth discussion about the exact limits of the pushing prevention system, but about the general Runeshard changes. It is fine to mention them together in a way that e.g. says "Hey, I'm now hitting the point where the pushing limitation system starts working", which is of course totally relevant, but this thread is not meant to discuss the exact boundaries of such systems. There is a reason why the company chooses not to share these, and you can agree on that or not, still we have to follow the policy about it on this official forum.

 

[Alcaro]

OK, my very short feedback - I love it and I'll use it until I hit the limitation wall, then I will cry, I will whine, I will moan

 

[micha57]

Also.. ich seh das mal so,wenn ich alles richtig verstanden habe,.. die spieler,die einen großen Überschuss an Runen haben, in höheren Kapiteln,sind dann eindeutig bevorteilet gegenüber den kleinen Spielern,da die logischerweise keinen Runenüberschuss haben.

Ebenso sehe ich die Gefahr, das ein Run entsehen könnte wenn einige versuchen werden so mit aller Macht versuchen ihre AW zu ziehen,.. eben auf Kosten der Kleineren..

 

[micha57]

Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob dies ein kluger Schachzug ist - ich habe mehrere tausend Runenscherben, die ich niemals verwenden werde; Wenn ich sie alle verschenke, sind das ungefähr 30 000+ KP, die ich in die Spiele meiner Freunde einspritzen werde.
Das wird das Gesetz der unvorhergesehenen Folgen stark ins Spiel bringen - und jemand wird sicher einen Weg finden, das System auf eine Weise zu betreiben, die die Designer nicht beabsichtigt haben; Wir müssen sehen, was das Ergebnis ist ...
[/ZITIEREN]

Genau auch meine Sorge..!

 

[Marindor]

@micha57 Welcome to the Beta forum. Please note that it's English only here, please.

Translation:

"So.. I see it this way, if I have understood everything correctly,.. the players who have a large surplus of runes in higher chapters are then clearly at an advantage over the small players, since they logically do not have a surplus of runes.

I also see the danger that a run could occur if some try with all their might to pull their AW, .. at the expense of the smaller ones.."

 

[smallgnome]

This system of restrictions does not create any imbalance, everything is simple, as much as the KP received, invest the same amount. The new feature motivates the exchange of runes. Obviously, it is better to get 5 KP more from each nested rune. Reducing the number of KP per rune eliminate this motivation. To lose 5 KP from each investment is significant, a 2KP is not. PS: If the attachments in your AW have reached the limit, fill in one AW completely and the restriction will be lifted, you will be able to receive KP attachments again.

 

[little bee]

@Marindor Fine than here is my feedback to the rune changes and the pushing limit:

- The amount of AWKP indroduced by this change is too large. If these AWKP can not be used on ones own wonders anymore, it feels normal to use them on the wonders of other players instead.
-If the developers want to prevent this kind of behavior, then they should communicate this clearly. And by that I mean there should be an ingame annoncement, telling everyone that this is forbidden and will be prevented by a new mechanism.
- Even then there is a real risk, that players may get accidentally into this lock. Almost every normal swap-method has some sort of imbalance build into it. E.g. for wonder-mails not everyone gets a "fair" amount of chests, for net-0 there can be a large time-gap between donating and reciving KP.
Normally this would balance itself out after a while. But with tens of thousands of KP being swaped in a single day, even a small imbalance will still be large in absolute numbers.
-Even a single player hitting the pushing-lock can cause a massive disruption to the swapping method of the entire fellowship.

Personally, I think there needs to be some mechanism to prevent all the stored runes from being converted all at once. Maybe there could be a limit of 100 runes per player and week. Also, encouraging us to invest runes only in other players wonders may not be a good idea. The more KP get swaped, the easier it is to accidentally hit the pushing-lock. If we invested more into our own wonders this problem would not be as big.

 

[Karvest]

Current 2740KP is a huge reserve for any imbalances that can occur in fair KP exchange systems. If you are not pushed - you won't hit it.

 

[Killy]

@Karvest Help me here: If a player in net0 just rarely fills any chests but is very active in building his/her own wonders in net0, can he/she get into trouble?

 

[Karvest]

Shouldn't, even if your net0 include runes costs in chest values for donations.
Limit is increasing by 80KP every day, it should be enough to cover these runes costs.

 

[little bee]

Current 2740KP is a huge reserve for any imbalances that can occur in fair KP exchange systems. If you are not pushed - you won't hit it.

You could, if you are building 10 wonders at once. And that with tens of thousands of KP just droped on your head in a single day that is not even so unrealistic. Also, there could chest-hunters filling up wonders that you do not even want to upgrade. This would count against you forever. And again, its not that unrealistic.

 

[Karvest]

If you are doing it in fair manner, you also donate the same 10k KP to other players.
Chest hunters usually don't pay to AWs that are far from being upgraded, and rarely invest more than they can get from these chests. And you still have these daily 80KP limit increase to cover them.
If you exchange KP fairly - after one year you will have ~30K reserve...

 

[Killy]

Shouldn't, even if your net0 include runes costs in chest values for donations.
Limit is increasing by 80KP every day, it should be enough to cover these runes costs.

Ah right, per day and not per week, I cannot read today.^^ No problems anywhere.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It is fine to mention them together in a way that eg says "Hey, I'm now hitting the point where the pushing limitation system starts working", which of course is totally relevant, but this thread is not meant to discuss the exact boundaries of such systems.

Right, why discuss a future issue that can be prevented when you can wait until it's already too late?

 

[little bee]

If you are doing it in fair manner, you also donate the same 10k KP to other players.
Chest hunters usually don't pay to AWs that are far from being upgraded, and rarely invest more than they can get from these chests. And you still have these daily 80KP limit increase to cover them.
If you exchange KP fairly - after one year you will have ~30K reserve...

You are missing the point. I am not arguing against the pushing-lock. From what I've read, it should work just fine under normal circumstances.
The problem is that the rune changes will create a situation which is far from normal. You can not drop so many KP into the game, encourage players to swap them and then expect usual behavior.

That is why I think there should be limit on how many runes can be converted. It would stretch out the time, during wich these KP are introduced into the game, and thus reduce the chaos that will be created in the short term.