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Discussion Release Notes version 1.98

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please see the Release Notes of our current game version here and let us hear your thoughts about it in this thread!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Beta Team
 

Jackluyt

Well-Known Member
"Fixed several Carnival quest texts."

Is it possible that we could know which quests these are please - so I can pass on the information to my players?
:)
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
according to feedback thread first one is fixed not by text change, but by change of actual quest requirement.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
3* frogs having same hit points and base damage as 2* frogs is intended change?
Hmm this wasn't the case?
According de release notes from long ago when a unit goes from 1* to 2* there is a stat change, when going from 2* to 3* they will gain a power but not a stat change.

In start to wonder now if they were that good because they had double whammy. On the other hand it would hurt humans again those frogs where finally up to par with golems.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
According de release notes from long ago when a unit goes from 1* to 2* there is a stat change, when going from 2* to 3* they will gain a power but not a stat change.
by stat change it was meant attack and defense bonuses which are same for 2* and 3*
 

Dony

King of Bugs
report it as a bug, since other units have increases of basic stats, there is no point to have 1 unit without that increase
 

Dony

King of Bugs
I am not sure what was the real intention of this nerf, making crystal tournament easier for players or nerf player output, because if its a later then it is a miss
With Brown bear era it doesnt matter if we lose 1k squads or 2k squads, we train it in no time and most players just brute force through tournaments dont even thinking about it. With game braking bug in spire which reshuffle units every wave INNO is stealing from players thousands of squads every week and they dont even care, it ill be soon 1 year of this nonsense, this bug should have been fixed before spire has hit the live servers back then. Where is the balance here, worst part is most players dont even know about it, which makes spire unintentionale harder then it should be for map 2 and 3.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
by stat change it was meant attack and defense bonuses which are same for 2* and 3*
ah you are right, been to long, since I have been stats delving.

I am not sure what was the real intention of this nerf, making crystal tournament easier for players or nerf player output, because if its a later then it is a miss
With Brown bear era it doesnt matter if we lose 1k squads or 2k squads, we train it in no time and most players just brute force through tournaments dont even thinking about it. With game braking bug in spire which reshuffle units every wave INNO is stealing from players thousands of squads every week and they dont even care, it ill be soon 1 year of this nonsense, this bug should have been fixed before spire has hit the live servers back then. Where is the balance here, worst part is most players dont even know about it, which makes spire unintentionale harder then it should be for map 2 and 3.
We have to see the results but it sounds like a big nerf, I liked the fact that there was another "powerful unit" comparable to the golem.
I hope they havent nerfed it back to mortar levels. I know the orc strategist is the golem counterpart, but that unit is not producable for 99% of the players and hard to make for the other 1%.

As for the spire, I ignore fighting in the tower since the start, So I don't care.
 
I am not sure what was the real intention of this nerf
I can tell you the exact reason ;)

They nerfed the Frog Prince in order to eliminate an "exploit", which, under some circumstances, made it possible to reduce your "normal" avg. losses by 300-400%. I'll explain what I mean by "under some circumstances".

The huge attack range (10) of the Frog Prince, combined with the fire phoenix attack bonus (+50%), combined with T.o.t.Toads attack bonus (37-40%) resulted in a possibility to eliminate enemy light melee and light ranged units with one shot (the attack bonus is the key here). The result was, that light enemy units died instantly and the Frog Prince had all the time in the world to eliminate all the other enemy units (even heavy melee) with nearly zero losses. You needed T.o.t.Toads at level 27 or higher to be able to achieve that effect.

There was a huuuuge difference between a fight with T.o.t. Toads at level 25-26 (or lower) and one with T.o.t.Toads at level 27 or higher. With level 25 you had a normal fight with normal (though very low) losses, but with level 27 the Frog Prince became almost immortal.
The reason was:

1. With level 25 the Frog Prince weakened the enemy units, but wasn't able to kill them with one shot. It needed one more shot in order to eliminate them. In other words, the Frog Prince "lost" his second shot and in the meantime, other enemy units could come closer and had a chance to land a hit in a third round. That's a normal fighting mechanics.

2. With T.o.t.Toads at level 27 or higher the Frog Prince could kill some enemies with his first shot from across the map, so the Frog Prince had one additional round to eliminate all the other units (heavy ranged and heavy melee) before they came close enough to cause some damage. One additional round means the difference between low/normal losses and zero losses.

That resulted in a sick situation, certainly not intended by the developers. The Frog Prince became almost an universal unit, you could use it in many tournaments in round 1 and 2 with zero losses. In gems tournament (rounds 1-4) the Frog Prince achieved better results than the Blossom Princess with 8x Mage Multiplier !!! I consider that an exploit, since it was certainly not intended by the devs. It changed the whole fighting balance.

Under these circumstances (Fire Phoenix + T.o.t.Toads at lvl 27 or higher) the Frog Prince became much too powerful, it became an universal unit and not a specialized one, as intended. Shortly speaking, these "circumstances" (only few percent attack bonus too much) made that unit totally overpowered.

Some people might think that I'm exaggerating, but I'll give you an example.

Elixir tournament:

City 1:
1. Frog Prince + Fire Phoenix (+50% attack) + Temple of the Toads (+20% attack bonus), 7x Unleashed Unit Upgrade
87 provinces, 23490 points
Losses: 1500 units

City 2:
2. Frog Prince + Fire Phoenix (+50% attack) + Temple of the Toads (+37% attack bonus), 2x Unleashed Unit Upgrade
84 provinces, 22680 points
Losses: 500 units (avg. losses in the whole tournament: 0.14 units/fight).

As you can see the attack bonus difference of just 17% caused such a huge difference in losses (1500 compared to 500) although I only had 2x Unleashed UU. My later tests showed, that even the difference of just 4% would have a similar effect.

Some screenshots, showing most difficult fights in the 3rd and 4th round, that's sick:

Zaba6.jpg
Zaba4.jpg



I reported that to our CM back then, using almost the same description and the same screenshots and he forwarded it to IG for further investigation. Why ? I don't like such "exploits", I was also one of those, who protested against too many time boosters and against the possibility of gaining more than one bear. If someone wants to blame me, please don't :) Thinking that the nerf is a result of a single player's report would be naive and of course it's not the case. Moreover, IG's reaction shows me that many other players must have noticed and reported this problem as well. And yes, I consider it a problem since it affects the game balance too strongly. It gives a small group of players a huge advantage over the others.

I deeply believe the nerf was necessary. It will be easy to compensate it for an average player (5 levels of the T.o.t.Toads will be enough), but it will prevent that small group of players from using the Frog as an universal, almost immortal unit. I estimated the necessary reduction of attack bonus to be -10%, but apparently -8-9% will be enough, they must have calculated it better than I have ;)

Conclusion:
IMHO the nerf was necessary, so that the Frog Prince even with T.o.t.Toads at maximal level won't be able to one-hit-kill the enemies from across the map. That was exactly the problem, which destroyed the normal fighting mechanics. The Frog Prince will remain a very strong, powerful and useful unit, but it won't be possible to "exploit" it any longer in a way I described above.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
And what does that solve? You use 1-2 100% supplies instant and few time boosters and all your loses are repaired. For average users its irrelevant, for manual fighters its irrelevant aswell
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
They nerfed the Frog Prince in order to eliminate an "exploit", which, under some circumstances, made it possible to reduce your "normal" avg. losses by 300-400%. I'll explain what I mean by "under some circumstances".
Great analysis, thanks. It is a bit weird though that there is such an abrupt turning point in damage modifier impact. Given that base damage is random and fairly dispersed, and opponents are different, one would think that such loss transition would be a lot smoother...
 

Dony

King of Bugs
well its not possible to oneshot any enemy on round 6 with phoenix and lvl30 toads, unless he has some screenshots or there is another bug somewhere
if they want to remove universal mark from frog they need to reduce buff from 30% and not basa damage which will have zero impact on player base
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Since i dont like random numbers/screenshots from above i have made exact numbers to show what have actaully changed.

In the screenshot below you can see squad sizes of enemies where you could 1-shot any unit prenerf and after nerf, from 0 to that squad size means 1-shot, above that value means more then 1-shot.
nerf1.PNG


Now we can compare that squad sizes with tournaments and spire with same ratio to make it perfectly clear

Screenshots below shows all 6 rounds in tournament versus all numbers of enemies
nerf2.PNG


We can now compare that 2 tables to make exact conclusion about every unit.

Frog versus light melee

nerf3.PNG

  • Nasty Thief is unaffected
  • Furious Hellhound
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 4
  • Venom Drone Rider
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 1
  • Brutal Ancient Orc
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 2
  • Sinister Cerberus
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 2
Frog versus light ranged

nerf4.PNG

  • Poison Dryad and Sneaky Mist Walker
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
  • Forest Warden and Wily Bandit
    • only 3 encounters versus 5 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 4
  • Feral Wild Archer
    • only 3 encounters versus 5 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 3
Frog versus heavy ranged

nerf5.PNG

  • Crazy Cannoneer
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 1
Versus all other units it has no change

Spire

nerf6.PNG

  • Map 1
    • First 3 encounters
      • Withered Thornrose Mage can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Rigid Steinling can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: For obvious reason many mobs can be 1-shoted in first 4 encounters
    • Second and third Guardian
      • Furious Hellhound can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Wily Bandit can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on 2nd and 3rd Guardian
    • Last Boss
      • Brutal Ancient Orc can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Feral Wild Archer can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Furious Hellhound, Wily bandit and Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on last boss
  • Map 2
    • Last Boss
      • Furious Hellhound can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Wily Bandit can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Feral Wild Archer can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on last boss
  • Map 3
    • All 3 Guardians + Last Boss
      • Sneaky Mist Walker can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: no unit can be 1-shoted anymore in Map 3

So my question still stands, what was the purpose of the change, what developers intended to do, because it feels like random number where thown away and nothing is fixed properly.
I hope developers will double check their numbers, but keep in mind while doing changes that identity of unit should stay unchanged, if Frog is supposed to be good against light melee and light ranged, it should be good and not average.
If you want to remove completely 1-shot ability from player then you should also check Forest Warden which can 1-shot everything apart from strategist and thief with very few ELR buildings in first turn on most maps and after nerf it will require only 1-2 extra buildings to be placed to be back at where it was.
Light ranged were 1-shoting mages for years, so i personally dont think that 1-shoting is so bad, because you would change that long time ago. Nerfing 1 unit to not do that but keeping others to freely do that doesnt make much sense to me.

However if you want to change frog to not be universal unit you can do that through buff without affecting its identity, it was clear years ago when it was first time datamined that this unit will be go to in most cases, even if it did much lower damage, just because of its range.
It all depends where you want to go, are you OK that players can do high damage and 1-shot opponent or you want to remove that completely. Do you want universal unit on player side? Do you want to reward players for rising their wonder to certain level to reach certain treshold (something like Elvenar Trade Center)?

One additional round means the difference between low/normal losses and zero losses.
you can say that about every unit in this game, every other game including real life situation for last thousands years ;)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Since i dont like random numbers/screenshots from above i have made exact numbers to show what have actaully changed.

In the screenshot below you can see squad sizes of enemies where you could 1-shot any unit prenerf and after nerf, from 0 to that squad size means 1-shot, above that value means more then 1-shot.
View attachment 6930

Now we can compare that squad sizes with tournaments and spire with same ratio to make it perfectly clear

Screenshots below shows all 6 rounds in tournament versus all numbers of enemies
View attachment 6931

We can now compare that 2 tables to make exact conclusion about every unit.

Frog versus light melee

View attachment 6932
  • Nasty Thief is unaffected
  • Furious Hellhound
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 4
  • Venom Drone Rider
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 1
  • Brutal Ancient Orc
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 2
  • Sinister Cerberus
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 2
Frog versus light ranged

View attachment 6934
  • Poison Dryad and Sneaky Mist Walker
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
  • Forest Warden and Wily Bandit
    • only 3 encounters versus 5 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 3 encounters versus 6 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 3
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 4
  • Feral Wild Archer
    • only 3 encounters versus 5 enemies has changed in round 1
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 2
    • only 1 encounter versus 8 enemies has changed in round 3
Frog versus heavy ranged

View attachment 6935
  • Crazy Cannoneer
    • only 2 encounters versus 7 enemies has changed in round 1
Versus all other units it has no change

Spire

View attachment 6936
  • Map 1
    • First 3 encounters
      • Withered Thornrose Mage can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Rigid Steinling can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: For obvious reason many mobs can be 1-shoted in first 4 encounters
    • Second and third Guardian
      • Furious Hellhound can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Wily Bandit can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on 2nd and 3rd Guardian
    • Last Boss
      • Brutal Ancient Orc can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Feral Wild Archer can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Furious Hellhound, Wily bandit and Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on last boss
  • Map 2
    • Last Boss
      • Furious Hellhound can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Wily Bandit can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Feral Wild Archer can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: Sneaky Mist Walker can still be 1-shoted on last boss
  • Map 3
    • All 3 Guardians + Last Boss
      • Sneaky Mist Walker can not be 1-shot anymore
      • Result: no unit can be 1-shoted anymore in Map 3

So my question still stands, what was the purpose of the change, what developers intended to do, because it feels like random number where thown away and nothing is fixed properly.
I hope developers will double check their numbers, but keep in mind while doing changes that identity of unit should stay unchanged, if Frog is supposed to be good against light melee and light ranged, it should be good and not average.
If you want to remove completely 1-shot ability from player then you should also check Forest Warden which can 1-shot everything apart from strategist and thief with very few ELR buildings in first turn on most maps and after nerf it will require only 1-2 extra buildings to be placed to be back at where it was.
Light ranged were 1-shoting mages for years, so i personally dont think that 1-shoting is so bad, because you would change that long time ago. Nerfing 1 unit to not do that but keeping others to freely do that doesnt make much sense to me.

However if you want to change frog to not be universal unit you can do that through buff without affecting its identity, it was clear years ago when it was first time datamined that this unit will be go to in most cases, even if it did much lower damage, just because of its range.
It all depends where you want to go, are you OK that players can do high damage and 1-shot opponent or you want to remove that completely. Do you want universal unit on player side? Do you want to reward players for rising their wonder to certain level to reach certain treshold (something like Elvenar Trade Center)?


you can say that about every unit in this game, every other game including real life situation for last thousands years ;)
I think his point was the use of the fire phoenix, tho I think it's just dumb to rebalance a unit because of a building some users have and many others don't.
If for some reason in the future there is another way to buff the frogs, will we again nerf the frog?

We havent seen a similar debuff for blossom / hunters just because we kan buff them to a level where you can do unlimited steel toernaments.

It's ok if the lower the frogs, but it would be awesome if they at the same time would remove the ork restrictions of the ork units,
This restriction means humans just suck in tournaments and the frog was there new peevpet to come on par with the elves
 
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GrayEyes

New Member
Thanks to the 3rd star "frog prince", elves and the human race have equal rights in the tournament and the spire. Please do not change anything. Humans already supressed the elves.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
i really think its time for a new complete combat overhaul.
We never liked it when it was introduced, and we were promised we would like it once we had all possible units to 3 star status. Well guess what, we finally have all of them to 3 star, and now they are nerfing our units.
I think we need an overhaul because combat isnt fun anymore, its mainly resource management (keeping the amount of units under control) and usually doesn't require any tactic.
And if its resource management they really intend, then fine, but then all units should be as powerfull as their counterparts. in other words, the amount of losses you get when you use light ranged against heavy melee and mages, should be about the same as the amount of losses you get when you use light melee against light ranged and mages. Right now, your light melee loose way more even when you have wonders that boost them on max level (the main reason why everyone hates scrolls and magic dusts tournaments)
 
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