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Discussion Release Notes version 1.54

jps54

Well-Known Member
Rebalancing sucks, we lose and can't complain about it, without fear of reprisal.
So Quit with the rebalancing
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
The probleme here is : why those folks keep those buildings more than one year? I really don't understand :eek:
AND there hasn't been a better one since.
exactly this, there hasnt been a good alternative to replace them still. thats why some of us still have them. And with the coming of the building sets, theres just not enough days to get decent rewards that arent sets....

@Kaaru : Again, just nerf levels that are not available to users without upgrade option, and no problems with both op buildings in endgame and devastated cities in midgame...
Iv said the exact same thing before, i can only assume they plan to reuse the old event buildings again. Which makes me question if its a good idea to upgrade the old ones, or just wait till they come by again...


what im not totally sure about is why this nerf is actually needed.

those buildings we won that were changed, the max chapter of those is chapter 8 or maybe 9? because that was the max chapter back when they ran these events. Wouldnt it have been smoother to just make the buildings give a lot less 'bonus' when upgrading them each level from 9 -> 14, and leaving chapters 1-9 as they are?

Or are their plans to make these old event buildings possible to come again as a reward? in that case upgrading is also a bad idea, just wait till the event comes and then get replacement, would save you a lot.
 
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ashrem

Well-Known Member
So you mean ancient version of these buildings before using of spells, and after they turn into new version? I'm ok with that, but... it seem to be difficult technically no? :confused:
Shouldn't be difficult at all.Simply tell the definition file it is building 1286 (post upgrade) instead of building 942 (pre-upgrade). Definition files are unchanged until they apply an upgrade, then the system treats it as a different kind of building (using the new table) that uses the same art.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
@ashrem that require a lot of changes both client- and server-side. Currently there are no tables telling which building upgrades to which. Just next level of building with the same base_name.
 

Atlantis

Member
It shouldn't be that difficult, add an expired field to building definitions that is 0 or -1 if it is the most recent version and an id pointer to the updated building definition if it isn't.

When the game ask the server to upgrade a particular building it checks the expired field, if set then it updates the building type id for the building being upgraded to the value in the expired field.

Possibly only 2 or 3 lines of code on the server, the client probably needs 2 or 3 lines added as well to check if a building is expired and show upgrade details for the new version instead.

That's how I would do it, of course I don't have access to the source code so I don't know whether they are doing stuff in a more complicated way that stops it being that easy.

I would use an id rather than a base_name field but the same still applies if that is what they are using, just put the new base_name in the expired field instead and leave it empty if it is the current definition.
 
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Karvest

Well-Known Member
Anyway there is no difference for endgame players, would it be switched to "new" stats on update or on upgrade. and for midgame players having a bit more valuable building won't break the game.
The only edgy thing is "forever fairies" players, may be with this change Inno is trying to push them further through tech tree or force them to buy premium buildings to compensate loss of stats.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
To me it sounds like the heart of the issue is the values of buildings in those guest races verse the change after. I think you would have more effect arguing why there is an issue there than that inno should preserve the old values, something they have already debated and decided against.

In the long term I see the sense in changing those buildings, despite the short term angst. Similarly in the long-term the issue of benefit (or lack thereof) of those buildings will continue.
 

Atlantis

Member
The changes do seem to hit the first 8 levels the hardest, especially orcs, that does seem counterproductive to me given it probably makes sense to make older content easier to pass through rather than harder.

There are now 12 levels it would probably make sense to speed up the lower levels to encourage people to stay, it will still take them a while to do and they would still have the later levels to complete as well.

Most free to play games in my experience tend to make previous stuff easier when they add new content, although it does seem to me they do that to encourage the front people who are usually the big spenders to spend on the new content in order to keep their lead.
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
@ashrem that require a lot of changes both client- and server-side. Currently there are no tables telling which building upgrades to which. Just next level of building with the same base_name.
The building and client (and even the server) don't have to know anything. Casting the spell tells the client and server to tear down the previous building and build a different one its place, exactly as an upgrade does. It's just that in this case, the replacement building is one that looks identical but has a different progression. the only difference from the player tearing down a glorious statue and building a decorative flower pot on the same site is that the art doesn't change.

Eventually, when the only un-upgraded versions in play are long-abandoned cities, they run a one-time conversion on every pre-update building left on the server, and delete the original definitions from the files. Minimal data (one new series for each building being adjusted), virtually no disruption for players, except those who return after a year away from the game.
 
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Karvest

Well-Known Member
@ashrem client have to know which stats to show in upgrade tab. Server have to know which building should appear instead of one being upgraded.
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
@ashrem client have to know which stats to show in upgrade tab. Server have to know which building should appear instead of one being upgraded.
No, there is currently no upgrade path for those buildings so they don't show anything, and they don't have to show anything. The use of the special spell will be the only upgrade possible, so the building still doesn't need to have that info in it. The spell is uncommon enough that it can simply call the server when you initially click the event building to cast it, to get the details of what will happen when it is cast, then you click an okay to proceed. Casting the spell tells the client to tear down the existing building and replace it with the new one. It's really pretty simple, efficient, code. As long as the info is available in the wiki, that's plenty.
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
So you suggest to make upgrade UI from scratch rather than reuse existing one.
No. I suggest calling the upgrade UI from the spell casting. The upgrade screen would look the same, it just wouldn't require adding a ready-to-go tab to every event building which doesn't currently have one. The tab would only get passed to the client when someone tries to cast the spell, not when they click on the tab.

And that's only for the existing event buildings, which don't have that tab now, and might never, since the vast majority of players may never have a blueprint-spell. Once they modify the building the first time, it becomes a new building which has the upgrade tab. Future winners of the event building will get the version that pre-supposes upgrades are an option.

Virtually none of the target (pre-summer-2017 plus the small number they reused since) event buildings (as compared to the total number that have been passed out) will ever need the upgrade information. The majority of those that exist are in dead cities, and many more will be torn down without the owner ever possessing a blueprint-spell. Passing the upgrade progression to every client is wasteful, and needlessly generates ill-will. Just leave everything untouched (except for a static message in the buildings screen that it can be upgraded with the use of the blueprint-spell (see wiki for details) as a stimulus to obtain them)
 

Kaaru

Well-Known Member
leaving old buildings the same for old chapters wouldn't hurt anybody?
I disagree :
- (Old) Father tree of candy cane chapter 8 : 1100 :human: and 1100 :culture:
- (New) Fater tree of candy cane chapter 9 : 1540 :human: and 340 :culture:

Why your building should be better than mine despite the fact that he has one chapter less? :confused:
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
Why even bother with that if leaving old buildings the same for old chapters wouldn't hurt anybody?
Inno has paid for the art, so presumably want to keep using it, the buildings were over-powered when issued, so they need to adjust them if they want to keep issuing them, and some players want the ability to retain their buildings for aesthetic reasons, even if they are less powerful related to their current chapter than they were in the past.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
the buildings were over-powered when issued
Were they though?
I need to head out, but I'd like to see a true comparison.

OLD Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)
NEW Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)

Same for each chapter. I feel that a culture and pop building should hold up against a max res next chapter, and that the % should be close every chapter.
Chapters take 1-2 months, and events are ~3 months apart, so buildings that are only good for your current chapter are too weak to go for unless you are a very slow player.

Note: this is for buildings that you could win a lot of; one off buildings like the tower of winter king really don't matter as much since no one can have 5-10 of them.

If no one else has time to check, I'll whip up a chart in about 9h
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Were they though?
I need to head out, but I'd like to see a true comparison.

OLD Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)
NEW Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)

Same for each chapter. I feel that a culture and pop building should hold up against a max res next chapter, and that the % should be close every chapter.
Chapters take 1-2 months, and events are ~3 months apart, so buildings that are only good for your current chapter are too weak to go for unless you are a very slow player.

Note: this is for buildings that you could win a lot of; one off buildings like the tower of winter king really don't matter as much since no one can have 5-10 of them.

If no one else has time to check, I'll whip up a chart in about 9h
im with you on the next chapter thing. Just to make sure that people who are near end of a chapter have a use for it also.
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
Were they though?
I need to head out, but I'd like to see a true comparison.

OLD Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)
NEW Dwarf Father CC vs Dwarf max res pop/sq (including short side road/2) vs Fairy max res pop/sq (including short side road/2)

Same for each chapter. I feel that a culture and pop building should hold up against a max res next chapter, and that the % should be close every chapter.
Chapters take 1-2 months, and events are ~3 months apart, so buildings that are only good for your current chapter are too weak to go for unless you are a very slow player.

Note: this is for buildings that you could win a lot of; one off buildings like the tower of winter king really don't matter as much since no one can have 5-10 of them.

If no one else has time to check, I'll whip up a chart in about 9h
I can't speak to most of the buildings, but my glossy gardens (won in fairies) are 95.3 Pop and Culture per square, while my Wood elf residences (2 chapters later) are maxed at 100 pop, and are using 39.5 culture per square. Notably superior after 2 full chapters