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Discussion Release Notes version 1.54

Axatloc

Member
Marindor I don't understand and i don't want understand. Where is the list of event buildings with old and new planed values? Where is the time to prepared our cities to this changes? Where are spells to upgrade our event buildings? You screwed it up.
 

Priscil

Member
Why not have the old buildings just the way they are and do the new buildings give the option to upgrade... Most old buildings you demolish when there are new ones, because you are in a higher chapter an they will give more....
Players who don't play with diamonds or have any blueprints are screwed if i understand correctly...
 

Dony

King of Bugs
this step was inevitable to get rid of a situation when every new rewards feels crap compared to pre-winter 2016 buildings (culture and culture/population) with finally nerfing them all other buildings are getting higher values since you cant compare them to OP version of old buildings anymore, its better for players and devs, because you can now choose from wider variety of buildings and not waiting for to get winter star or glossy garden in winter 2018 (and i guess that was a reason why we didnt had this buildings in winter 2017)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
isnt that exactly what they did? :) we are in beta after all, there is a chance this new values wont come live next week, but a bit later
live is only 1.52, so theres at least 3 weeks to go before this change hits live.

what im not totally sure about is why this nerf is actually needed.

those buildings we won that were changed, the max chapter of those is chapter 8 or maybe 9? because that was the max chapter back when they ran these events. Wouldnt it have been smoother to just make the buildings give a lot less 'bonus' when upgrading them each level from 9 -> 14, and leaving chapters 1-9 as they are?

Or are their plans to make these old event buildings possible to come again as a reward? in that case upgrading is also a bad idea, just wait till the event comes and then get replacement, would save you a lot.
 

Scylthe

Active Member
those buildings we won that were changed, the max chapter of those is chapter 8 or maybe 9?
Actually, on live it were woodelves, so 9 is correct

but i agree to your
Wouldnt it have been smoother to just make the buildings give a lot less 'bonus' when upgrading them each level from 9 -> 14, and leaving chapters 1-9 as they are?
would be great and no much complications, but some buildings lost their culture too. tower of the winter king for example its sunked from 2600 to 1430 culture... :( i don't know how to handle this...
 

calenmir

Well-Known Member
i think this should be done by official announcement on live servers so people can prepare, they have 1 week for that
Yes, but will they give notice in advance - they sure didn't give it to us? And I don't mean notifying them at the same time they wake up to find out the damage is done. I hope that the feedback here about the heavy impact might have them reconsider the changes and it won't be so bad for live game, but I doubt it and I want my FSs to start thinking about what they need to do to minimize it.
 

Buttrflwr

Well-Known Member
I have already warned my live FS on K. To come home after a long hard day and find this....well, it was just too much. :p I still don't know how I feel about the whole thing. As @SoggyShorts said, Orcs is a horrible enough chapter on it's own, this just made it so much worse. Even though I am "finally" almost out of it, I am now 2k negative pop. Sigh. I do like the upgradeable CULTURE bldgs, not just event bldgs. I PAID for some premium culture bldgs early on before I wised up, that I wish I could have upgraded. I paid for them because I LIKED them, but eventually had to can them as they weren't space efficient. We should be able to upgrade those (though it won't help me now, I am NOT buying them again). Are premium culture bldgs going to be upgradeable @Marindor ? Or just Event bldgs?
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
@Buttrflwr It's about the event buildings. We currently have no intentions to make other culture buildings upgradeable, since you can just buy the new culture buildings when you're in new chapters. It's a bit of a different story with event buildings, which you can't just build again when you get rid of them. :)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I remember bringing it up considerably with the first event that the values of the event buildings had been trashed for those three chapters.

The thing is, in terms of game play, there is absolutely no draw or interest to the event building through those chapters.

There is something fundamentally wrong in the variables and/or criteria select in how those values for the event buildings came into play that you end up with this massive correction from orcs to woodelves in terms of the event building values. It is quite possible the "rebalancing" actually needs to look at a BAD input into the assessment of how those number are derived. Never possible, there simple IS some very bad logic/input/variable in how the numbers for those chapters came about that really makes event buildings not worth the effort.

When you have BAD data going in, you are always going to get BAD data coming out, and there is something here in the choices and the design that is creating a massive imbalance in the values on the event building in these chapters, and as I don't have access to look at what you've done, or how you've done it, I can not point out the error in where the "balancing" has gone so wrong.

Wow, this is coming down really hard on anyone in the first 3 Guest Race chapters. And it's particularly tough on Orcs players (of which I'm one :()!
I appreciate what you are saying Marindor, a broader view in looking at the balancing is needed, see comment above.

The change will indeed be relatively biggest for buildings on lower levels. In this case we basically had 2 options: Make these buildings totally non-upgradeable or take the pain of having to alter them to fit the balancing, also on higher levels. We didn't want to go for the first option, especially since we have many more chapters planned for this game, and the first option would take away the entire possibility to make these buildings more powerful on higher levels as well. Since most of our players are not that fond of getting rid of their old event buildings, we'd rather present an opportunity to keep them attractive, also on higher levels, even though it means making adjustments right now which are less nice in the short run.
Soggy, I see you've changed your tune compared to your comments when I was strongly arguing there was a problem here...

IMO the worst part of the change is nerfing buildings from chapter 8. All buildings in chapter 8 were already very weak when you consider the normal buildings you unlock in the next chapter.
I would have hoped that when doing a rebalancing that the massive jump from 8 to 9 would have been addressed.
I agree with you on how you make decisions about what to keep and what to get rid of based on the values and that you can not go back and get things that you could not justify keeping. This is a very strong case for inventory. Even if the inventory was just 5 building, with the ability to purchase more space if you want it, it would allow players to make some different decisions to help get around this issue.

My best guess is that the current re-balance is going to prove sufficiently painful to make me overly sad. I think it's going to be terribly unpopular on live, and going to lead to the kind of histrionics that lead to threats and rage-quitting.

We've had to make decisions since the first event about which buildings to keep, and which to discard. I've thrown out Blue tree enclosures from the winter event because my glossy gardens from a year ago were both more attractive and more functional. Now the developers have made a decision that will change this. I do not, however, have any-way to change my decision. The feeling of fairness is an important part of player retention. This does not feel fair, which is a bit of an issue

I sincerely hope you revisit the amount of the adjustments. perhaps they could be broken into smaller increments over the next couple of updates, or players could receive one upgrade spell for each event building they have deployed from a previous event, or just auto-upgrade buildings from the past to 1 chapter below where the player is currently. I think it is probably worthwhile to make some effort to ward off the fallout of this decision.
I can see that this kind of situation is going to cause another wave of quitting...

Wow, and suddenly, I am at NEGATIVE 2099 population. REALLY @Marindor? What am I supposed to do with this? I slogged thru the battle system re-design. I have hung in through thick and thin with you guys through some major re-vamping. I play live and beta, I spend money on this game. But this is ridiculous. Orcs is freaking bad enough without nerfing the only decent bldgs it had. Sigh. I have been on the verge of giving up for a while now. I am so much closer now. I have finished halflings on live, I am stuck in orc hell on beta. It is really just not as fun anymore. Maybe I should take a break, and just let my 2099 population sit there awhile. I just don't have the energy to try to figure out WHERE I am going to make up that kind of pop. SMH.
I think there is a third choice, see my comment above and reexamine the inputs in how the game pieces for those three chapter that puts them so out of balance that they are utter useless and not worth any kind of effort to get at all. Bad data in, bad data out, and that's the problem here.

Hi guys,

Thank you once again for your feedback. We totally understand the feeling you have when the rebalancing meant that your population has dropped and of course, for us as well, it's not the nicest news to bring. However, please understand that we did have to make a choice here: Either discard the entire possibility to make event buildings upgradeable, or face the fact that the older event buildings needed these changes to prepare them for being upgradeable in the long run without seriously disrupting the game balance. Since it has been a huge request of our players to make blueprints work on event buildings, we decided to go with the option to prepare these older event buildings for that, even if it means taking a bitter pill on the short term. As some players already mentioned in this thread: Elvenar is still a young game with many planned years to come and unfortunately not all balancing has been perfect right from the start. This means that when we make changes in mechanics, like making buildings upgradeable which were originally never meant to be upgradeable, we have to polish these kind of things sometimes. We do hope you understand this and are able to look beyond the short term disappointment and see the benefit on the long term of being able to upgrade these buildings to all the levels/chapters that are still to come. For me, personally, I think it would be a shame if the upgrade possibility would be turned back because of too much negative feedback that's based on short-term vision.

For some of your other questions, like when exactly the Restoration Spells (that's what they'll be called) will appear in the game and whether or not there will be other ways to gain them than just tournaments: At this moment I don't have any details on this yet. I know that we're in the last stage of testing and polishing before implementing them, but we don't have an exact estimate yet. Of course we strive to implement them as soom as possible, so you will be able to get these event buildings to higher levels to increase their bonuses again to a standard which matches the current chapters you are in.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Do we get any free upgrade spells as compensation for the huge loss of popuilation and culture we have to endure?
This I can not yet fully confirm. What I can share right now, is that based on your feedback and the data we see, we are indeed currently investigating solutions for the drop in population. We expect to have more details on that next week. :)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
This I can not yet fully confirm. What I can share right now, is that based on your feedback and the data we see, we are indeed currently investigating solutions for the drop in population. We expect to have more details on that next week. :)
lets keep out fingers crossed we get some diamonds as compensation, then we trash the event buildings anyway, and buy expansions with the diamonds ;)
 

Axatloc

Member
Good idea with this diamonds compansation. Lets see, I lost over 4,5k population, when I swap 10 residence to magic residence I come back to my old population level. Pls give me 8700 diamonds.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Good idea with this diamonds compansation. Lets see, I lost over 4,5k population, when I swap 10 residence to magic residence I come back to my old population level. Pls give me 8700 diamonds.
max level magic residence is 4800 population i believe, so iyou wouldnt get more then 1400 diamonds.
You just pointed out why giving diamonds is a bad idea, the value of diamonds is a lot different for each chapter :)
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
Thank you once again for your feedback. We totally understand the feeling you have when the rebalancing meant that your population has dropped and of course, for us as well, it's not the nicest news to bring. However, please understand that we did have to make a choice here: Either discard the entire possibility to make event buildings upgradeable, or face the fact that the older event buildings needed these changes to prepare them for being upgradeable in the long run without seriously disrupting the game balance.
There's logic there, Marindor, but once again the team has gone about things in a backward fashion. Lots of games need balancing on a regular basis. The standard is generally to either deploy the re-balancing (good and bad) all at once, so that players don't have to face as much shock, or to deploy them in small pieces, interspersing good with bad, so that players can adjust their play without that same shock.

A more appropriate option would have been to warn players that buildings are going to be upgradeable, but that after that happens, they will be adjusted to make them fit the power curve. By deploying the upgrades first, along with details of the reductions that will follow, the players have a chance to see whether they can use the upgrades, or should just abandon their buildings and replace them with other options before the adjustments. As it stands, there will be large degradation for some users, who will have no idea what the next step will do to offset that.

There is absolutely no upside to springing pain on players without warning. The Elvenar team is one of the worst in the industry for concealing information about the future that the players need in order to be able to make meaningful choices about their play going forward. This is probably the most serious shortcoming in how the Elvenar development team engages with the players.
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
max level magic residence is 4800 population i believe, so iyou wouldnt get more then 1400 diamonds.
You just pointed out why giving diamonds is a bad idea, the value of diamonds is a lot different for each chapter :)
You're missing the part that we can't just add magic residences, we have to tear down something else to replace them, so the max of the magic residence doesn't matter, it's only the difference between a normal residence and magic one that matters.
 

Axatloc

Member
The calculation is from my chapter, faires, and is ok, 10 residences going to delete to make a space and then I build 10 magic residence. 10 magic residence give me 9400 population and this is exacly what I lost due to rebalance and delete 10 residences
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Soggy, I see you've changed your tune compared to your comments when I was strongly arguing there was a problem here...
Eh? I have commented that orc level event rewards suck every single event.
What I can share right now, is that based on your feedback and the data we see, we are indeed currently investigating solutions for the drop in population.
That is excellent news. If it helps, you can take the +300 pop from my Father tree of candy canes and give it to someone in orcs :p
 

ashrem

Well-Known Member
I think the minimum safe answer is do not deploy the changes to live until you have the ability to upgrade the event buildings also in place.

An alternative is at the same time as the cuts take place, promote the buildings that are being cut by a couple of chapters. that should only require one-time changing numbers in the database, as opposed to any actual code changes.