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Discussion Release Notes version 1.39

shadowblack

Well-Known Member
@Marindor
Three things I want to say:
0) The change to the Lighthouse/Bell Spire should have been done AFTER the change to NH (or at the same time as it) instead of before it. How long are we going to wait for said change? You said "the (near) future", but that could mean a few days, a few weeks, a few months...
1) I understand the reasoning for limiting the number of rewards per day the player can get, but you guys went too far - from 'almost no limit' to 'just 3 times'. That's WAY too little
2) This whole explanation you wrote should have been there from the very begining! Instead, we got a lousy "A word from the team" that didn't really explain anything and that only served to frustrate some people (me included - and I don't even have the Lighthouse/Bell Spire yet!)
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Hi @shadowblack , thanks for the feedback. I agree that the original explanation was quite short and didn't give much clarity and I apologize for that.

About the timing of the changes: I see your point here but also know from the developer's side it isn't always easy to wait with changing certain things until other things have been changed/added. I do understand the downside this temporarily has though. I don't have any specific information on when the changes will take place (it would still depend on test results etc of course) but as soon as we have more information available on it, I will let you know.

About the middle part: Please do keep in mind that the rewards are about 10 times as high now, so it's comparable to 30 NH's in the previous situation. That's of course still a lot less than the 300 our most active players did before, but at the same time a lot more than the majority of our players ever did.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
my only concern now is that it doesnt reward active players, whereas SSS or DB gives more units the more time you log into game during day compared to people who logs once per day, this new iteration doesnt promote or reward activity, something like another chest for every 10-30 helps
 

blackbudahflyb

Well-Known Member
So what I am hearing is....

1. This new way of receiving goods from the Bell Spire and Crystal Lighthouse is a permanent change.
2. The NH will become easier to do...at some point soon.

Neither of these inspire me to even KEEP my level 6 Crystal Lighthouse in my furthest along city or build it in my city on the newest server. The space it takes, the amount in goods it takes to build, and the number of KP to upgrade it, is simply NOT WORTH the benefits it provides. AND all of that is after I get the required runes to create it.

The NH becoming easier is great and probably will have me visit ALL of my neighbors more often. However NOT having a Crystal Lighthouse will not change anything about NH how it is now or how it will be soon, as getting goods from visiting neighbors will not happen, if I do NH after I visit my FS members.
 

Midnightsidhe

Well-Known Member
my only concern now is that it doesnt reward active players, whereas SSS or DB gives more units the more time you log into game during day compared to people who logs once per day, this new iteration doesnt promote or reward activity, something like another chest for every 10-30 helps
Yeah, or like even if they still wanted a strict cap, they could make it so like, if you visit more than say ten neighbours, you can find X additional chests.

@Marindor -- thank you for your detailed reply. Having the additional information really helps.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone!

We want all of our players to perform Neighborly Help and many do not do it because they do not see the advantage of it. Having bigger and more accessible rewards will actually trigger more players to give Neighborly Help overall. So on a global scale, more help will be performed with this change despite the fact that our most active users will probably slow down on it. For the vast majority of players, this new system will offer more rewards (as most players mostly help their 24 fellowship members or less) and with less efforts. Bigger rewards requiring less efforts will make it attractive to more people to perform at least the amount of Neighborly Help they need to get these rewards.
Sorry this is nonsense, the 3 chest are in general gained after like what 5 NH attempts? how on earth is this promoting NH more (note that I agree the reward is currently to big but this change in this way is just wrong)

We also strongly believe that the players giving a lot of Neighborly Help are not doing this only for the rewards and, indeed, it should not be the main reason to give Neighborly Help. The rewards are one incentive, the tools and coins you automatically get are another and the satisfaction of helping your in-game friends is the strongest and most important one for us. If the players who perform a lot of Neighborly help, do believe it’s overall not worth the effort, they can do less of it and spend the gained time into other aspects of the game too.
Maybe you step out of your carl marcx book and step into the real world. while a small percentage of the people is selfless, the most are selfish driven only by personal gain. why you think all those socialist (aka communist) states have failed? why they needed force to keep there states going but still failed in the end?

Hopefully we have been able to explain a bit more the reasoning behind these changes now. We know the changes can have quite an effect on very active players when they are used to perform hundreds of NH's per day but we will also have to keep in mind what would be best for the majority of our players. However we do take your feedback seriously and will keep monitoring the statistics about the effects these changes have for further optimization.
The reason to change is valid, but to remove the incentive for NH to this extend is just the opposith of what your trying to reach. you just removed any incentive we have to actually help out the neighbours other than help based on ideals.
the experience I have in game is that people only return the favour because somene else is taking the first step. they return the favour because of ideals and because of the supplies we get. the gold coins, let be serious were are swamped in those. so there is no reason to do NH for the coins. why you think some of the more active players have prices for 1 KP in excess of 2m coins? because we really need those?

The crystal Lighthouse was a great way to create an incentive for people to do a bit more then they really needed to, especially with the NH change.
I agree that the 2x 3h /1x 9h production a day of all your factories was surly overkill, and a 50% cut would have sure been acceptable.

Dont forget building up your wonder is a lot of effort time and recources. getting back a usuable reward for it ain't bad. remember how popular this wonder was when it gave us a whopping 44 goods per NH, no one even cared, if I calculate the difference between what we are getting now on beta and compare that to the old "impopular" crystal lighthouse..

In the new version I get 22290 goods a day, in the pre wonder change situation I would have gotten 26319 (283*93)goods.

So now the wonder is even worse than before the wonder "update", and it now promotes NH as little as possible. instead of as much as possible.
There is absolutly no incentive left to return the favor to people beyond those that help you, to which in return creates less buss to make other follow. you just created a downward spiral instead of an upward one. (tho the inproved NH system can create a temporary fling upward untill it looses momentum)

I think this change is way way way way way worse than for example the initial wholesaler change (which also made sense just like this one). with the only difference that this one impact less players on a short notice. creating less negative buzz.

Why do you not do the same as the wholesaler and just go back to the drawing board and come back with a second version similar to the wholesaler with a similar result without killing the incentive. the second wholesaler was a million times better than the first failure.
 

conqueror9

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone!

Always nice coming back from vacation like this, I have missed you guys! :D Jokes aside, here is where we currently stand on this topic:

First of all of course we'd like to thank you for your feedback and for sharing your concerns. We are well aware of the points you've brought up and are monitoring the impact closely. As you might have already guessed, the changes to the Crystal Lighthouse and Bell Spire are related to both the Ancient Wonder balancing and the upcoming improvements to the NH System. For those of you who have already played on our mobile app: You'll have a bit of an understanding about the way we want to go with Neighbourly Help and the time it takes. Because NH will take a lot less time in the (near) future, we will also have to consider balancing here so that's always a bit tricky. We want to help you make NH less boring and time consuming but this also means we can't keep giving tons of goods for something that will take almost no time anymore. The actual mechanic, when overused, is actually way too strong in comparison to the costs of these Ancient Wonders and will be even more so when the time to perform NH will be significantly reduced.

Also, it's important to try to look at this objectively. These changes have the biggest impact on our most active players because the players who did take the time to do NH for ages, had of course the most benefit from the amounts of goods this rewarded them with. Objectively though, most of our players (even amongst active players) do not perform a lot of NH and will in the new situation, have more goods with less efforts needed.

We want all of our players to perform Neighborly Help and many do not do it because they do not see the advantage of it. Having bigger and more accessible rewards will actually trigger more players to give Neighborly Help overall. So on a global scale, more help will be performed with this change despite the fact that our most active users will probably slow down on it. For the vast majority of players, this new system will offer more rewards (as most players mostly help their 24 fellowship members or less) and with less efforts. Bigger rewards requiring less efforts will make it attractive to more people to perform at least the amount of Neighborly Help they need to get these rewards.

We also strongly believe that the players giving a lot of Neighborly Help are not doing this only for the rewards and, indeed, it should not be the main reason to give Neighborly Help. The rewards are one incentive, the tools and coins you automatically get are another and the satisfaction of helping your in-game friends is the strongest and most important one for us. If the players who perform a lot of Neighborly help, do believe it’s overall not worth the effort, they can do less of it and spend the gained time into other aspects of the game too.

Hopefully we have been able to explain a bit more the reasoning behind these changes now. We know the changes can have quite an effect on very active players when they are used to perform hundreds of NH's per day but we will also have to keep in mind what would be best for the majority of our players. However we do take your feedback seriously and will keep monitoring the statistics about the effects these changes have for further optimization.

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
Marindor
Sorry, It sound non-sense to me
First of all, we have no mobile version, It is UK and France has mobile version only. It is very unfair to declare ....as the rest part of the world do not give their comment on mobile system...we know nothing about it, we do not think it is better version
In fact, if the change is like that, it is now top score of worst amendment in elvenar
< Previous worst one is market, we do appreicate Inno like to introduce dynamic market with different pricing, but it is wrong that we cannot get our non-boost goods .... that worst amendment has finally corrected after Inno finally accept our comment by adding back non-boosted good...so far the market is running well after Inno accept our comment >

It sound to me, the change is to force player to do more NH
If it is Inno's intention, I am very sure it goes to wrong direction

one of very valid comment on Inno is.... Inno do not play elvenar, they do not know "what is happening", that is also the reason why Inno do not know player use market's "wholesale market" to get non-boosted goods to use
If Inno does play Elvenar, they should know ............First of all, there is only 3 chests. Secondly Chest do not occur inside fellowship member, if u start visit in hoods, it fall in hoods...it is actually fall according to visit (whoever <no matter it is your fellowship member or not > u start visit in a new day visit , it start fall ... Finally player get 3 chests very fast..... the fastest record is 3 visit with an average 6 visits ( I guess )
Your statement "most players mostly help their 24 fellowship members or less" reflect that "most player" will immedialtey get 30 times (3 chest) X goods instead of get 24 times (24 visit ) X goods.... they get more goods with lesser visit...
where is the motivate to push those "most player" to do more visit outside their fellowship ?
alternative those who active visit hoods outside their fellowship, why I need to spend a lot of time to do visit as I do not get additional goods
The change in Great Bell/Lighthouse intend to encourage player to do more NH outside fellowship become
"most player" continue to do your normal visit as b4, there is no additional benefit to you....and request those who active visit hoods to reduce their visit as Inno will not give you additional goods while you visit your hoods

Inno should employ some specailist in human behaviour.... Inno should aware player look like a child...you give child a candy, they follow you...u take away candy..child will then follow others who s giving him candy
To elvenar, the goods that they get from visit is the "candy" they want, they chase the candy and do more visit

The change in Great Bell/Lighthouse is actually a action of "take away candy"... I suppose Inno will find it later in their statistic
I have no idea why Inno insist to implement it in game world by ignoring beta-world player comment. Just like FA, we report our finding and provide constructive comment. Even some further amendment ( no item carry ovet to next FA ) in the 2nd trial. It is a good co-operation between Inno and beta-tester. That is the purpose of the beta world, you set something to test and we report our finding

We have provide our comments on change to Great Bell/Lighthouse..
Hopefully we have been able to explain a bit more the reasoning behind these changes now. We know the changes can have quite an effect on very active players when they are used to perform hundreds of NH's per day but we will also have to keep in mind what would be best for the majority of our players. However we do take your feedback seriously and will keep monitoring the statistics about the effects these changes have for further optimization.

Inno know it will have a impact on active player who doing tons of visit.....What is the reason that why Inno launch the change in game world without getting statistics..... what is the reason that why Inno launch the change in game world without any moditication in beta world...
To me, It show no respect of beta tester in here....
Apart from this, Inno has launch some problematic amendment (at least, I believe ) in game worlds, where Inno earn a lot of $$$, does Inno want to give his valuable customer a heavy punch..... as Inno think they earn too much..

Some of the beta tester already give some constructive comments for further testing... like to provide more chests (e.g. 1 chest per 10 visit )... Inno can change the content of chest.. amount of visit give 1 chest... ... It is a good comments that "most player" cannot get 3 chests inside their fellowship member visit and encourage them to go outside into hoods to find candy (chests).....

I do not see anything that make visit more simply .... nowaday, I need to use notificaftion to jump to player who visit me and return my visit..it is so complex
If Inno want to improve Visit, FoE (another Inno game ) has a one, player use event table ( like notification), player do not need to go into player 's city , this save a lot of time, simple and fast...player can return tons of visit in a very short time.. FoE has a logic when player pressed "aid" in that table, FoE will follow a logic to direct those aids to good building (like polish diamond building 1st )....
 
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Thordek

Active Member
Also, it's important to try to look at this objectively. These changes have the biggest impact on our most active players because the players who did take the time to do NH for ages, had of course the most benefit from the amounts of goods this rewarded them with.
Then Elvenar will take the upscale place between the games which are not rewarding assiduous players spending time in it. Contrary, the less-doers will be highly rewarded. Objectively looking, yes.

We love Elvenar, so that we spend time to play it. Now we are punished for it - again. For me, after playing for years, this is the most disappointing "rebalancing":(. I think it is time to consider doing something else...
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
The reduction calculation is simple, (number of provinces on world map - 30)/(number of provinces on world map) x100%. 315/345*100% is a 91% REDUCTION.

I don't have time to do the map daily because it takes so long. The requests have been to improve NH so we can actually reap the benefit.

I don't know how the developers come up with some of this stuff but this is a "bait and switch" and an unconscionable change that is over the top unreasonable. People invested in this wonder because of what it does.

I've always spent money on games, but on one game I played the developers screwed players over royally and I just didn't spend another dime the last two years I played the game. This is one of the screw players over kind of events.

CORRECTION!!!!! The number of cities does NOT equal the number of provinces so my calculations are incorrect. We have just over half the number of cities as we have of provinces, I am estimating the number of cities in the example above at 175, so (175-30)/175 is an 83% reduction.


Somewhere I recommended going for a break even point of 200 cities with a split of the current level of goods between the boxes and actually collection the provinces. I still think increase to 10 boxes, but actually collecting from provinces down to 25%. This is an improvement in the wonder for smaller players and the vast improvement in actually getting what the wonder promised in terms of front loading makes up for any decline in overall collection ability for the players with the huge maps. Again, make the boxes have a 40% probability of appearing.

If the value of this wonder is slaughtered to the degree described, it will take a lot elsewhere to entice me to spend any more money on the game.

Hi everyone!

Always nice coming back from vacation like this, I have missed you guys! :D Jokes aside, here is where we currently stand on this topic:

First of all of course we'd like to thank you for your feedback and for sharing your concerns. We are well aware of the points you've brought up and are monitoring the impact closely. As you might have already guessed, the changes to the Crystal Lighthouse and Bell Spire are related to both the Ancient Wonder balancing and the upcoming improvements to the NH System. For those of you who have already played on our mobile app: You'll have a bit of an understanding about the way we want to go with Neighbourly Help and the time it takes. Because NH will take a lot less time in the (near) future, we will also have to consider balancing here so that's always a bit tricky. We want to help you make NH less boring and time consuming but this also means we can't keep giving tons of goods for something that will take almost no time anymore. The actual mechanic, when overused, is actually way too strong in comparison to the costs of these Ancient Wonders and will be even more so when the time to perform NH will be significantly reduced.

Also, it's important to try to look at this objectively. These changes have the biggest impact on our most active players because the players who did take the time to do NH for ages, had of course the most benefit from the amounts of goods this rewarded them with. Objectively though, most of our players (even amongst active players) do not perform a lot of NH and will in the new situation, have more goods with less efforts needed.

We want all of our players to perform Neighborly Help and many do not do it because they do not see the advantage of it. Having bigger and more accessible rewards will actually trigger more players to give Neighborly Help overall. So on a global scale, more help will be performed with this change despite the fact that our most active users will probably slow down on it. For the vast majority of players, this new system will offer more rewards (as most players mostly help their 24 fellowship members or less) and with less efforts. Bigger rewards requiring less efforts will make it attractive to more people to perform at least the amount of Neighborly Help they need to get these rewards.

We also strongly believe that the players giving a lot of Neighborly Help are not doing this only for the rewards and, indeed, it should not be the main reason to give Neighborly Help. The rewards are one incentive, the tools and coins you automatically get are another and the satisfaction of helping your in-game friends is the strongest and most important one for us. If the players who perform a lot of Neighborly help, do believe it’s overall not worth the effort, they can do less of it and spend the gained time into other aspects of the game too.

Hopefully we have been able to explain a bit more the reasoning behind these changes now. We know the changes can have quite an effect on very active players when they are used to perform hundreds of NH's per day but we will also have to keep in mind what would be best for the majority of our players. However we do take your feedback seriously and will keep monitoring the statistics about the effects these changes have for further optimization.

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
 
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lika1961

Well-Known Member
We also strongly believe that the players giving a lot of Neighborly Help are not doing this only for the rewards and, indeed, it should not be the main reason to give Neighborly Help. The rewards are one incentive, the tools and coins you automatically get are another and the satisfaction of helping your in-game friends is the strongest and most important one for us.
I call BS on this whole "people help their neighbours because they love them" idea. People don't generally care a jot about their neighbours because they are in fact competitors. They do NH because they get something out of it. Making it easier to do NH will not magically make people start doing it. Some people do, some people don't. All of this smoke and mirror "love they neighbour" crap does not take away from the fact that you are "punishing" the most active players. How does that even begin to make sense?
 

benroq

Well-Known Member
Hello

You say that the NH will be easier to make in the future (what is true because I use the application) and what the gains must have revised downwards.
I agree for the principle but a reduction in 90 % (for me) adorned me too important.

Otherwise we have to expect to gain also less coins and supplys during our passages at the neighbors? I gain more than 8 000 000 of coins during my passage at my neighbors is it too much for you?
 

Midnightsidhe

Well-Known Member
I dreamt last night that they'd decided to award each player one additional chest for every completed ring of provinces scouted, up to a total of ten, and somehow did not realise that this hadn't happened until I came to the forum. This is messing with my sanity, apparently.

Knowing the rationale behind the decision is an improvement, and I do get where they're coming from, and I, personally, am taking a bit of a hit but not a very serious one, because I only visit active neighbours and don't have time to do even that much every day. But I still agree, nevertheless, that the reduction is too much, and that there's no obvious reason that this change will motivate people who don't already visit their neighbours to start visiting neighbours. That's a leap of logic that I can't quite follow.
 

Ritsel

Guest
I also don't understand the rationale. For advanced players (especially those who researched all the squad upgrades) it becomes harder and harder to fight in the tournaments. Mainly because you just can't keep up with the training. So catering becomes more the only option. But catering costs a ridiculous amount of goods, which is the main reason why I have upgraded my crystal tower on live after the first re-balancing. Now you've taken that option away again :(

I know already that fellow players feel that I complain too much. That maybe so, but I loved this game and it's breaking my heart that it's getting ruïned by all the crazy desicions of late
 

WolfSinger

Well-Known Member
I understand the rationale - but what the devs are failing to take into account is that many of us are surrounded by inactive players. So while we do get coins we don't get return visits or supplies - getting the goods was the only reason I made an effort to visit my full neighborhood a few times a week. What you are doing with this is ensuring that I stop world visits except for returning those that visit and maybe doing a full sweep periodically to catch possible newbies. Unless the devs finally start moving inactives to the edge of the map so we're in active cities - this still feels like you're punishing long term players who try to be active.
 

WolfSinger

Well-Known Member
i do like the idea of adding an additional chest to be found for each ring completed on the map. Don't limit it though - but start it when the player completes ring 4 and completes the first province in ring 5.

So prior to completing ring 4 - you get 3 chests during neighbor visits. Once you complete Ring 4 and complete the first province in ring 5 - you can now find 4 chests and so on. For example I'm working on ring 14 - so i get my base 3 plus 9 additional.

The other thing that would be nice is to offer really good prizes in that last chest maybe a couple of diamonds to be awarded after 7 days of reaching your last chest in a row. This can be tied to having earned more than just the basic number of chests as well - before you're eligible for the 'loyalty' reward.

Most games that offer in game premium items that have to be purchased with real money offer in game rewards that can earn you the premium 'cash'. Inno has taken a nice step by now offering diamonds when we complete guest race chapters. Adding a max of 5 diamonds to a visitation reward for doing max neighborhood visits every day for 7 days in a row - would be something that would definitely encourage visits, offering a chest for each ring completed rewards active players without overpowering the rewards as the rings get larger and larger and more than 10 visits so the 10x amount in the chests will still be less than than now with individual visits.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
The problem with adding more chests is that you have to actually wait for that pop-up, which for me would take about twice as long.
 

Midnightsidhe

Well-Known Member
The problem with adding more chests is that you have to actually wait for that pop-up, which for me would take about twice as long.
When I first read the announcement about the changes, I actually thought they meant that the goods were still being provided as previously but in pop-up chests. My relief over realising that I would not have to hunt for a chest in every single city I visit was so strong that I still haven't been able to get as upset about the change as a lot of other people.
 

ALdbeign

Well-Known Member
Neither of these inspire me to even KEEP my level 6 Crystal Lighthouse in my furthest along city or build it in my city on the newest server. The space it takes, the amount in goods it takes to build, and the number of KP to upgrade it, is simply NOT WORTH the benefits it provides. AND all of that is after I get the required runes to create it.
I am already thinking when the next wonders come out for the soon to be chapter, the runes i have collected on my lighthouse will be worth more than the lighthouse itself.:rolleyes:
 

cestbienmoi

Well-Known Member
I think the best is to suppress NH requirement for lighthouse if we follow the logic behind the modification, the lighthouse will give the ressources every 23h, easier than find a stupid chest !
 

Ainor

Well-Known Member
This change is coming on lives server, thus I suppose it is permanent...
Well, I will destroy my great bell, now useless, to regain preciouses tiles (instead of buy an expansion)