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Discussion Release notes version 1.151

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
What day of the week do the updates go live?

Big updates are normally every other Friday morning, German time. The game just happened to go from 1.151 to 1.152 right before the tech tree for new cities went stupid. Small updates, like going from 1.151.1 to 1.151.2, can happen any time during the week.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
When was the last time you built a city CW? It's easy to forget the experience. These changes seem disastrous to me.

The first troops can't even survive provincial battles beyond the first 2 or 3 - they have never been effective for anything in the lower chapters. The spire offers critical resources tiny cities need and learning to moderate your resources is part of that. Tiny cities will be unwelcome in established fellowships if they can't contribute to group goals. Without tourney growth is stunted even further than it is. Nothing good will come from these changes.

Is it possible your limited experience with starting a city has narrowed your POV?
Maybe you havent? paladin/treant are awesome and you get 100 of them.
Off course you need the unlocked tech tree to keep fighting
beyond 2-3 provinces I hope this is your sarcasm mode. as long as your tech tree keeps up you can fight a lot. at the mean time your ability to make units and goods improve a lot as your factories grow, your barracks produces, your units get an extra star, and your relics increase by 8 a province on the world map.

The main issue is you need your recources either goods or units to expand your city, in the early game the best source of boosted relics is the world map, not the tournaments. and spire is even worse. it's very easy to loose it all in 1 swipe in these parts of the game. either goods or units.

So more focus on world map and tech tree at the start of the game is a good thing.

Maybe, just maybe just like I often did, you got lazy starting a new city, sponsored that city a few thousand goods opened some lazy provinces and never got in the correct window?
This really skews your POV on new cities. especially the fighting part.

And yeas you need your SS research to be able to fight there. which with a lot less KP is now a lot easier to unlock. in fact it's even likely you get stuck on provinces with the massive cut in KP to move on, which makes sure you got the correct techs unlocked to fight.
 

DeletedUser3840

Guest
Thank you @CrazyWizard I have found the new city tech tree and even the optional quests that have supplied plenty of goods beneficial for a brand new city.

With the big bad tech tree bug this weekend I’m stuck in early chapter 3 on my test city. I’m looking forward to reaching the spire in chapter 5 and having all my goods available to cater my way up and hopefully not stopped do to coin, goods or supplies
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
without tournament : event will become nearly impossible and progression will be very slow without relics (impossible to create CC in MA and boost will not increase much , so less resources )
I was just thinking, great move to streamline it so the game goes quicker. I remember inviting friends to the game years ago and advising patience was needed because the beginning of the game was so slow and drawn out. So, new players don't have that same experience now, but moving the spire and tournament to later chapters would do that to the game again, so you have one thing that is improving new player experience, and then this massive slaughter planned.

I think it would lose people's attention before they develop interest and increase the rate of early game attrition.

Better idea might be to limit the tournament to one set of tournament provinces, ie, 9, until chapter 4, and limit the spire to the first level until chapter 5, if I am reading these changes correctly. You don't get the big relic numbers until province 10.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Why is beta on release 1.152? I thought it was 1.151.

On Beta we have a different release schedule than on Live. We do indeed have version numbers, but since roughly 5 years now, we're working with daily releases on Beta, meaning that the game usually gets updated every day (see here for the original announcement about that). Since a lot of backend work is preparation for future event/content and other things that aren't visible in the game, many updates will not include any actual changes in the game, and we only post Release Notes updates when something is implemented that you can actually notice, like bug fixes, balancing changes and newly released content. So the game itself is indeed already running on version 1.152 for us, but the first release notes will appear when the first bug fixes/noticable changes for this game version are implemented on Beta. This means, compared to Live, that "our" 1.152 version is still a Work In Progress, and the version that gets released on Live will be the full package after it went through its Beta stage. Hopefully this makes it more clear!
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
Maybe you havent? paladin/treant are awesome and you get 100 of them.
Off course you need the unlocked tech tree to keep fighting
beyond 2-3 provinces I hope this is your sarcasm mode. as long as your tech tree keeps up you can fight a lot. at the mean time your ability to make units and goods improve a lot as your factories grow, your barracks produces, your units get an extra star, and your relics increase by 8 a province on the world map.

The main issue is you need your recources either goods or units to expand your city, in the early game the best source of boosted relics is the world map, not the tournaments. and spire is even worse. it's very easy to loose it all in 1 swipe in these parts of the game. either goods or units.

So more focus on world map and tech tree at the start of the game is a good thing.

Maybe, just maybe just like I often did, you got lazy starting a new city, sponsored that city a few thousand goods opened some lazy provinces and never got in the correct window?
This really skews your POV on new cities. especially the fighting part.

And yeas you need your SS research to be able to fight there. which with a lot less KP is now a lot easier to unlock. in fact it's even likely you get stuck on provinces with the massive cut in KP to move on, which makes sure you got the correct techs unlocked to fight.

When testing little cities I try not to rely on my own POV but rather test things to see if changes are problematic or not. For example, when they changed the relic system so that each tournament gets you a variety of relics rather than just one kind I thought it would be terrible. I was convinced it would slow down growth to a snail's pace so I built a city and tried it out. It turns out I was wrong. The new relic system is brilliant and offers structured growth at an appropriate rate.

I have a lot of experience building cities - my smallest is ch 2 atm. On the live servers I've built about 16 -20 cities 6 of which I still play. On beta I've built 6. Most of them have been built for the express purpose of testing different play styles or to test major game changes. I have built sponsored cities, lone cities, no coin cities and ones where I've spent money. It's because I've invested so much time and energy into testing foundational city growth that I can speak to the problems I foresee these changes will bring.

You're right, Paladin & Treants are great, but you only get 50 and you can't train any more until you unlock them (early ch 2 for Paladin, end of ch 2 for treant). New players are challenged to make these troops last because the early chapters are highly dependent on synchronised growth. By that I mean you have to clear provinces in order to gain expansions so you can build the barracks, training grounds and armories you need to clear provinces. Any barrier to to negotiating or fighting hamstrings the games progress.

The changes to the early chapters lock new players into the most tedious aspect of the game whilst depriving them of the exciting (and rewarding) aspects. Player engagement relies on activating reward centers in the brain and without events and the spire you deny players the single most effective motivator - reward anticipation. Studies have proven that unreliable rewards are the single most effective motivator - they keep people working harder for longer with less reward. The spire and events offered those rewards in chests and tournaments allowed cities to fund events & spire.

Basically, these changes have the potential to make the game boring and unrewarding.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
When testing little cities I try not to rely on my own POV but rather test things to see if changes are problematic or not. For example, when they changed the relic system so that each tournament gets you a variety of relics rather than just one kind I thought it would be terrible. I was convinced it would slow down growth to a snail's pace so I built a city and tried it out. It turns out I was wrong. The new relic system is brilliant and offers structured growth at an appropriate rate.

I have a lot of experience building cities - my smallest is ch 2 atm. On the live servers I've built about 16 -20 cities 6 of which I still play. On beta I've built 6. Most of them have been built for the express purpose of testing different play styles or to test major game changes. I have built sponsored cities, lone cities, no coin cities and ones where I've spent money. It's because I've invested so much time and energy into testing foundational city growth that I can speak to the problems I foresee these changes will bring.

You're right, Paladin & Treants are great, but you only get 50 and you can't train any more until you unlock them (early ch 2 for Paladin, end of ch 2 for treant). New players are challenged to make these troops last because the early chapters are highly dependent on synchronised growth. By that I mean you have to clear provinces in order to gain expansions so you can build the barracks, training grounds and armories you need to clear provinces. Any barrier to to negotiating or fighting hamstrings the games progress.

The changes to the early chapters lock new players into the most tedious aspect of the game whilst depriving them of the exciting (and rewarding) aspects. Player engagement relies on activating reward centers in the brain and without events and the spire you deny players the single most effective motivator - reward anticipation. Studies have proven that unreliable rewards are the single most effective motivator - they keep people working harder for longer with less reward. The spire and events offered those rewards in chests and tournaments allowed cities to fund events & spire.

Basically, these changes have the potential to make the game boring and unrewarding.
Well said, but I didn't see a problem with the new relic system for new cities at all. You get some every week, well, maybe there is some bad timing, like say your t1 shows up province 9 and you just started that will probably slow you down...

Players really need to get the tournament and spire open quickly. I also think the game would really suck if you are at chapter 5 and you managed to get so few relics that your boost is crap. So you have these things open and can't do much with them because of chronic goods issues...
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
Well said, but I didn't see a problem with the new relic system for new cities at all. You get some every week, well, maybe there is some bad timing, like say your t1 shows up province 9 and you just started that will probably slow you down...

Players really need to get the tournament and spire open quickly. I also think the game would really suck if you are at chapter 5 and you managed to get so few relics that your boost is crap. So you have these things open and can't do much with them because of chronic goods issues...
Yes. How will players manage guest races which start in chapter 6 without a decent reserve of goods and a proper relic boost? All my little cities that I grew past ch 3 were parked up at the end of chapter 5 to fully prepare for guest races. I didn't start ch 6 until everything was upgraded, optimised and well stocked. I learned the hard way with my first cities that entering ch 6 without max boost and ample resources resulted in unnecessary problems. I came very close to quitting.

I really am at a loss as to what these changes are supposed to fix.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that new cities would open spire less quickly? As far as I understand - new system will push you through first 4 chapters faster than you normally get to ch3 in old system, and should have enough resources from quests to discover appropriate area of world map granting you more provinces in tourneys faster. (like in old way you have 5 weeks of tourneys with 2-4-6-8-10 provinces, while in new system you have 2 weeks with 15+ provinces, numbers are not real, just an illustration of the idea)
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
Why do you think that new cities would open spire less quickly? As far as I understand - new system will push you through first 4 chapters faster than you normally get to ch3 in old system, and should have enough resources from quests to discover appropriate area of world map granting you more provinces in tourneys faster. (like in old way you have 5 weeks of tourneys with 2-4-6-8-10 provinces, while in new system you have 2 weeks with 15+ provinces, numbers are not real, just an illustration of the idea)
It's not so much about when they get the spire but rather if they will have the resources to climb.
No one can climb the spire without appropriate goods or means to make them. Without a decent relic boost spire can't happen.
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
Why do you think that new cities would open spire less quickly? As far as I understand - new system will push you through first 4 chapters faster than you normally get to ch3 in old system, and should have enough resources from quests to discover appropriate area of world map granting you more provinces in tourneys faster. (like in old way you have 5 weeks of tourneys with 2-4-6-8-10 provinces, while in new system you have 2 weeks with 15+ provinces, numbers are not real, just an illustration of the idea)

I would be willing to try the new system but have not been able to create a new city with the new research tree, only the old one.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
You get relics boost from openworld provinces (which you will have conquered more at ch5 than at ch3) and tournament (for tournament - see my previous post).
From the other side - relics boost directly affects spire costs, and having bigger relics boost is very questionable for early spire climbing
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
relics boost directly affects spire costs, and having bigger relics boost is very questionable for early spire climbing
I had not thought about that and actually went back and looked at the formula. Now I'm wondering how strong the effect is...
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
You get relics boost from openworld provinces (which you will have conquered more at ch5 than at ch3) and tournament (for tournament - see my previous post).
From the other side - relics boost directly affects spire costs, and having bigger relics boost is very questionable for early spire climbing

Relic boost affects everything. This entire game is based on the giving of the right hand vs the taking of the left. An increase in production rate is mitigated by various mechanisms. If it was such a questionable practice there would have been negative consequences that limited the player yet most find ways through barriers.

Tournaments are delayed in the new scheme so where will the extra relics come from that they lose every week that tournaments are withheld from them? Just 6 rounds of 5 tents earns a player 65 relics, 9 tents gives 153 (just individual rewards, not team chests), That's a huge loss.
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
I had not thought about that and actually went back and looked at the formula. Now I'm wondering how strong the effect is...
it affects everything really. I did read that a 700% boosts doubles the difficulty/cost of a 200% boost but you'd still be way better off at 700 than 200
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Tournaments are delayed in the new scheme so where will the extra relics come from that they lose every week that tournaments are withheld from them? Just 6 rounds of 5 tents earns a player 65 relics, 9 tents gives 153 (just individual rewards, not team chests), That's a huge loss.
Again, tournaments are delayed chapter-wise, but at the same time you are advancing through chapters faster, so get more opened provinces for tourney. 4-5 tournaments in ch1-2 without overscouting should give you ~same amount of relics as 1-2 tournaments in ch4. If advancing to ch5 now take same time as advancing to ch3 earlier - there should not be any loss. But that depends on storyline quests, rewards should be high enough to push you through chapters fast.
 

DeletedUser3726

Guest
Again, tournaments are delayed chapter-wise, but at the same time you are advancing through chapters faster, so get more opened provinces for tourney. 4-5 tournaments in ch1-2 without overscouting should give you ~same amount of relics as 1-2 tournaments in ch4. If advancing to ch5 now take same time as advancing to ch3 earlier - there should not be any loss. But that depends on storyline quests, rewards should be high enough to push you through chapters fast.
I must be missing something because what you're describing is a difference without distinction.

Chapter 3 will be the new 5, same length of time to achieve it, same relic level by the end... Its like eating the same pie but the new one is cut into smaller pieces.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
It was designed to speed up starting chapters with storyline that guides newbies and gives them a basic knowledge about the game and not to make their gameplay worse.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Right, it looks like Inno is trying to make chapters 1-5 more of an extended tutorial on the game and they do not want people taking months to complete a chapter that should only takes a few days or a week or two. I would say they want people to get out of the baby chapters and experience the guest race chapters.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I must be missing something because what you're describing is a difference without distinction.

Chapter 3 will be the new 5, same length of time to achieve it, same relic level by the end... Its like eating the same pie but the new one is cut into smaller pieces.
Lol I have been trying to say that all along. maybe it finally lands
 
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