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Discussion Release Notes version 1.111

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
S = (0,4391B + 0,5) × (1,0042)^M × (1+0,003A) × (E - P/4 - 4) × N where
  • S squad size in a Spire/Tournament encounter
  • B your highest relic boost, not counting Mountain Halls effect (so B=7 if at least one of the boost is maxed out at 700%)
  • M number of mandatory techs researched
  • E number of expansions (includes premium)
  • P number of premium expansions
  • A total number of AW levels
  • N depends on the encounter
    • N = (number of catering options - 2) for a Spire encounter,
    • N = (# of province + # of stars -1)/5 for a Tournament encounter.
This is the formula found by @MinMax Gamer before yesterday's changes.
@Marindor, if you had another complex formula that gives exactly the same results for tens of cities over several weeks, please show it.
 
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Marindor

Well-Known Member
@Lovec Krys I think this outrage you're referring to is mostly caused by assumptions about the difficulty formula that are not correct, which is logical since we're not able to share the exact formula. Let's compare it to Coca Cola changing their drink: You can experience that in the end you do or don't like the taste better and if you don't, you can assume that it's because there's now too much nutmeg in the drink, but since Coca Cola won't reveal their exact ingredients and amounts, you can only try to recreate it yourself and assume that this is the problem, but you don't know for sure. Maybe it's some other ingredient that caused the change of taste.

As you know, as a company, we don't reveal our formulas either. This is a policy we won't be able to change, and I know this can result in misconceptions. All I can do is emphasize, as I've been trying to do, that the benefits of these factors are far bigger than the role they play in the overall formula. At this moment you can basically confirm this fact by experiencing how lowering the impact of expansions doesn't really make that big a difference overall.

That being said, we're still closely monitoring the overall performance and balancing as well, so maybe other things should still be changed too. All we can do is forward your experiences on the changes, so our Game Team can consider all that.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
@Lovec Krys I think this outrage you're referring to is mostly caused by assumptions about the difficulty formula that are not correct, which is logical since we're not able to share the exact formula. Let's compare it to Coca Cola changing their drink: You can experience that in the end you do or don't like the taste better and if you don't, you can assume that it's because there's now too much nutmeg in the drink, but since Coca Cola won't reveal their exact ingredients and amounts, you can only try to recreate it yourself and assume that this is the problem, but you don't know for sure. Maybe it's some other ingredient that caused the change of taste.

As you know, as a company, we don't reveal our formulas either. This is a policy we won't be able to change, and I know this can result in misconceptions. All I can do is emphasize, as I've been trying to do, that the benefits of these factors are far bigger than the role they play in the overall formula. At this moment you can basically confirm this fact by experiencing how lowering the impact of expansions doesn't really make that big a difference overall.

That being said, we're still closely monitoring the overall performance and balancing as well, so maybe other things should still be changed too. All we can do is forward your experiences on the changes, so our Game Team can consider all that.
Though multiple solutions can be found for curve fitting (aka data) we can figure out the exact dependency by changing one parameter at a time and checking next week SS.
Please don’t underestimate our optimization specialists.
And the coke example. But here things can be quantified and not subjective.
But then, you are trying to do your job and I respect that.
good day Marindor.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Marindor You(=Inno team) don't share the formula not because you cannot, but because you don't want to (so you can continue saying something what we don't believe).
overall performance and balancing = nerfing tournament for endgame cities (and especialy the top tournament cities) was intended and not a mistake or side effect. In other words: Yes we (Inno) know that you end gamers will do much worse, but we don't care.
I wonder how many other end game players follows the example of those who already quit, once this goes live.

But I don't worry about myself, I have already accepted that my tournament & Spire performation will go only down with until the current formula is completely reworked. And I no longer count with my future playing to stay in tournament tops and with a choice between T&S & Progression(AWs&Expansions included) I have chosen progression over tournaments & Spire.
And before both becomes completely unplayable it will become obvious even for Inno team that their formula makes end game cities' tourneys&Spire from bad to worse and from worse to unplayable with each new chapter and it will be abondoned.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be unplayable, you would still be able to do 2.5 points, while those who are not that far in progress would be able to do much more...
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
we're not able to share the exact formula.
Why ?
(If what we think is worse than the reality (which is what you're claiming), you're losing money not showing us the truth. (And the "you're not the majority" argument doesn't work here, as this "majority of casual players" don't care about the formula, so you won't lose money from them showing it. While you're losing money from us if you don't show us we're wrong. Perhaps not a lot as we're a minority, but you're losing money.))
 
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PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
At this moment you can basically confirm this fact by experiencing how lowering the impact of expansions doesn't really make that big a difference overall.
The only thing we can confirm with this is that the reduction of the impact of expansions you just did is insignificant. It doesn't tell anything about the impact itself.
While, looking how much placing an expansion increases squad size shows that the benefits of this expansion are NOT far bigger than the penalty it creates in tournaments and Spire.
 

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
As we said before: The formula is very complex and involves a lot of different factors and indeed, as also stated before: expansions and individual AW levels have a very low impact on the overall difficulty and their benefits far outweigh this impact. I don't know about formulas used on other sites and whether or not they are totally correct, but at least now you might be able to conclude that noone is "lying"...

I have 7 cities on live. Checking the formula for spire troop size published by @MinMax Gamer the results differed by less than 1% for all 7 cities, by <0,1% for my chapter 16 city and where exact in some cases. Therefore the original formula may have as many factors as you wish - the deviation from the formula we are using is not significant and not of any relevance for practical purposes.

But even without math, using only some very basic knowledge about elvenar, it is easy to see that this "...and their benefits far outweigh this impact." is a lie. There are a lot of wonders that have no impact on tournament results at all. Take e.g. sunset towers. I am an active player therefore I always had more than enough seeds without building it. No matter how small the impact of the wonder levels is, it will always outweigh the nonexisting benefits. Similar arguments hold for a couple of other wonders.

I don't want to insult you personally I know other community managers are telling us exactly the same rubbish. But it is really obvious that what you are telling us is not true. And what is worse you don't even need math skills to see this, a little bit of practical experience playing elvenar would be enough. Sorry, your statement is much worse than a lie, it is a very stupid and obvious lie. It is insulting that you even try to tell us rubbish like that!
 
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PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Let's compare it to Coca Cola changing their drink: You can experience that in the end you do or don't like the taste better and if you don't, you can assume that it's because there's now too much nutmeg in the drink, but since Coca Cola won't reveal their exact ingredients and amounts, you can only try to recreate it yourself and assume that this is the problem, but you don't know for sure. Maybe it's some other ingredient that caused the change of taste.
Now imagine someone found a recipe that had exactly the same taste as Coca Cola, and hundreds of people that tasted both confirmed it had the same taste. Now they're able to reproduce the same change as in new Coca Cola drink by adding some nutmeg in the recipe. Would you still trust Coca Cola saying they didn't add nutmeg to the recipe when evidence show the opposite and everyone can check the recipe has the same taste as Coca Cola ?
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
We have double checked and the changes are already in place. However, as we've said before, expansions are just a very small fraction of the equasion, so as you can now see, although some players highly focused on those, they just don't have that much influence. We will perform an extra check to see if rounding might have an influence on these total values being even less, but at least the changes are active at the moment.
Hi, as I already asked, and I said in another section, the problem lies in PUTTING INTO THE EQUATION, both the normal-premium expansions, and the levels of wonders ...
What does this mean??
Very easy:
As much as you "downgrade" the 0.7 or 0.5 of the expansions, it is still a factor that adds up and makes the squad sizes huge, and does not allow us to battle very far.

Repeat again, yes, you have tweaked or lowered that number a bit, but it is still a key factor that hurts, and repeat again, that you HAVE NOT TOUCHED anything regarding the level of wonders, another of the key factors to have consider.

SOLUTION: it is very simple, I said it, and I will repeat it a thousand times, TAKE THE LEVEL OF WONDERS AND EXPANSIONS OUT OF THE EQUATION !!!
Players who have expansions, HAVE EARNED THEM, players who have wonders and various levels, TAKE A LOT OF TIME TO HAVE IT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE IT !!
We cannot allow you to use this now, against us, IT IS UNFAIR AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
If a few people can provide me their tournament squad sizes from the steel tournament, we can probably quickly figure out what is the change to the expansions term. In all likelihood, it is just a small adjustment to 2 expansion coefficients.

Ideally, that data would be from well-developed cities (e.g. lots of expansions, AWs and research), to minimize rounding errors. You can PM me.
 

alexgreat

Member
As we said before: The formula is very complex and involves a lot of different factors and indeed, as also stated before: expansions and individual AW levels have a very low impact on the overall difficulty and their benefits far outweigh this impact.

In respect to AWs, this statement is accurate for the first couple hundred of AWs. So, this formula was a good fit when it was designed because we only had small number of AWs available with limited number of levels. However, today, we have 30 AWs with up to 35 levels, which is 1050 AWs levels in total. There is absolutely no way to justify 4x increase in difficulty just because a player has a lot of AW levels. So, the formula is unacceptable and needs to be replaced.

We are not asking a lot. All we ask for this game is to be simple and honest for players at all levels.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
@HolyElf it was said many times, they are excluded
Thanks. Just wanted to confirm that with the re-worked model this week. I don’t want to be double punished for doing them.
 
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DeletedUser3289

Guest
We are not asking a lot. All we ask for this game is to be simple and honest for players at all levels.
When I realized how much exactly mountain hall added to goods, the very first time, I felt totally cheated.
Also sanctuary that said 104.5% was 4.5% in addition ...
Honesty was never part of the package.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Something minor compared to all the concerns about tournaments :
Quote from the announcement :
"the Crystal Tournaments have a focus on Light and Heavy Melee enemy units."
Crystal used to have LM/HR and mage enemies... why does it have more HM now ?
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
Something minor compared to all the concerns about tournaments :
Quote from the announcement :
"the Crystal Tournaments have a focus on Light and Heavy Melee enemy units."
Crystal used to have LM/HR and mage enemies... why does it have more HM now ?
Probably re worked? Would me nice if slightly different combos occur. Can spend some time re-strategising.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
If a few people can provide me their tournament squad sizes from the steel tournament, we can probably quickly figure out what is the change to the expansions term. In all likelihood, it is just a small adjustment to 2 expansion coefficients.
it wont be that easy, they changed secretly other things as well to compensate that
yesterday devs double checked that and marindor confirmed that other "hidden things" are not a bug but rather intended changes
and i am 100% confident by now, fortunately math can not lie
its not mathematically possible that city on the end of the tech tree doesnt even have 1% decrease while in fact it has most expansions placed and cities somewhere in the middle with less expansions has lower difficulty now with bigger impact
most likely what they did is they took city on the end of tech tree, lowered impact of expansions as much as possible while buffing other things (most likely research techs) and made sure it doesnt exceed current difficulty, because then it would be obvious that something fishy is happening
and since there are very few players on the beta on the end tech tree who actually care, this would go unnoticed for quite some time
i just hope some miracle will happen in next chapter so players are willing to progress in tech tree and spend some money so this game can continue
 
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