Rebalance of evolving buildings/unfairness towards newer players

[Dl. Goe]

Hi guys,

I would like to bring you under consideration the following situation:

For a long time by now, we have had events with evolving buildings as grand prizes; all of these prizes are rather similar as value, apart for two (fire phoenix and brown bear), which might be considered more powerful even compared to wonders at high levels. A combination of multiple phoenix-es (not even a plural exist!) and bears allows anyone who has them to score very high in tournaments, cash in the benefits from such successful tournament (quite important ones) and eventually take the pride of a high ranking player.

While I clearly understand they have paid for this advantage, what I cannot grasp is why similar prizes (or slightly better) are not offered on a regular basis (aka every year when the event has a re-run). A such approach leaves most players with the feeling they are not allowed to compete against those who (ones upon times) bought them; and on the other hand makes any event currency purchase less probable, as people tend to compare prizes (especially if the price is similar).

And that brings me to some sort of proposals, at least as my blonde neuron could:

• The fast rebalance: allow only one building (of one type) to be fed at any time; this will bring some fairness, as most players have/can acquire one building, but leaves the new grand prizes quite lame.
• Adopt an ever slightly better prizes policy, which means the power/value of grand prices slowly increases from event to event. This way everyone has the chance to improve the account, keeps all event important/attractive and probably encourages some event currency purchase. I’m fully aware this solution is similar to a slight inflation (in players’ combat power), but devs. can always add a new term to the famous squad size formula (this time related to the number of event buildings), I don’t have to teach them…

And as a last thought, about that squad size formula: event if devs. are pleased with the results for the moment, because they have used only a multiplication of exponentials for the entire formula (and that doesn’t reflect the true interactions among game’s traits/attributes) it is prone to give unwanted/unpredictable results whenever values change; even worse, the corrections of those coefficients will be arbitrary (not predictable, because the function itself does not respect the in-game interactions); so, my 2 cents advice is: feet in a cold water basin first and then work in pairs, one who really understands the game and one who knows some math.

 

[Lelanya]

So your proposal would render the Ashen Phoenix completely useless because who is going to commit to having no opportunity to feed the Fire Phoenix or Brown Bear for 30 days at a time?

 

[iDavis]

The other way of addressing this could be bringing some new pets with comparable useful effects (which haven´t happened for a while) - these could be not only for fighting, but for some different aspects as well. Players with multiple brown bears / fire phoenixes would then have to carefully consider how to spread their pet food (which is quite limited) and - if they kept focusing on tournaments only - could start losing other useful benefits in the game.

 

[yakmeister]

i think having another pet with characteristics similar to fire phoenix would be good and help level the playing field a bit more. Maybe some type of dragon that would help with fighting. While phoenixes are nice, I would love to have a pet dragon that would help me with fighting lol

 

[Dl. Goe]

Lelanya, if you accept a such progression of prizes, than all event buildings will become obsolete after a while (a few years, let’s say?), even the most powerful that we have today; that’s why I suggested to see it as inflation and it can be kept under control (at least for tournaments) by altering the magic formula.

As very well iDavis pointed out, new evolving buildings could help other aspects of the game, not limited to tournament; probably a combination of such buildings (and they should grow in power from event to event) will help keep the events useful/desirable (as today, if I have to move in inventory the last 7-8 event buildings, although fully evolved, I don’t lose too much).

 

[edeba]

so, my 2 cents advice is: feet in a cold water basin first and then work in pairs, one who really understands the game and one who knows some math.

I keep saying there's a numeracy problem and if I was to narrow it down, it is the number sense part of numeracy. You can be able to be highly competent in numerical calculation, but with poor number sense you get garbage like what we have for the tournament.

 

[Rill]

Newer players are now able to get fire phoenixes and bears from the Spire (although it takes a while to accumulate them). So they are not at a permanent disadvantage (other than by not having multiples, which few players have).

I guess I don't understand the problem.

 

[Lelanya]

Nope still not convinced.
No from me.

 

[little bee]

I strictly oppose any powercreep with regards to the event prizes. The prizes should always remain comparable, i.e. only a little better, than the normal, non-event buildings. I think many of the op building were a mistake to begin with. Having the phoenixes and bears available for everyone is good, but introducing more such prizes would be wrong.

I honestly like the current balance for grand-prizes, were an evolving building is worth around double its space.

 

[Dl. Goe]

Honestly, I don’t understand your point, little bee…you are talking about the equilibrium of prizes as if it exists right now and we shouldn’t ruin it; but, I can see 2 buildings that do not align with the rest (phoenix + bear) and a few people who have multiple ones. So my question is when a newer player will have the chance to buy multiple such kind buildings? Or should we accept a special breed, those who were playing at the time such offers were possible?

 

[little bee]

Honestly, I don’t understand your point, little bee…you are talking about the equilibrium of prizes as if it exists right now and we shouldn’t ruin it; but, I can see 2 buildings that do not align with the rest (phoenix + bear) and a few people who have multiple ones. So my question is when a newer player will have the chance to buy multiple such kind buildings? Or should we accept a special breed, those who were playing at the time such offers were possible?

My point is that you can't fix one balancing problem by creating more balancing problems. It is now possible for everyone to get both the firephoenix and the brownbear and only few players have multiples anyway. As far as I am concerned that should be enough.
Elvenar is not a very competitiv game. So I don't see it as a big problem if a very small number of players has an advantage in the tournament. On the other hand a lot of players play to build a beautifull city. For that purpose it is important that the game is playable without event buildings, but does not become boring with them. Therefore event buildings should never become to powerful compared to non-event buildings.

And with regard to buying multiple phoenixes or bears: I would not mind it, if there was an offer to buy a second (or third) base once a year for 100 $ or so. But from what I understand, that was not your suggestion.

 

[Dl. Goe]

Allow me to break the discussion in two:

• About my opinion that an “ever better prizes” would make events more appetising and your remark that if implemented would force players to go for event buildings; I think this can be easily kept under control by introducing another term to those formulas for squad size (checking tournament + spire) and if needed something similar for research; all these should be done in order to keep grand prizes desirable.
• About the specific situation of bears/phoenix: here I believe you are completely wrong.

First you say Elvenar is not a competitive game: please, look how many discussions, threats, people who quitted, etc. generated the squad size formula (and it has definitely a smaller impact compared to 3-4 each phoenix and bears).

Second, you minimalize the advantage generated: it isn’t only about the tournament score, but about all benefits from a v successful tournament and spire: a lot of kp, relics, runes, time instant, , catalysts, spell fragment, special buildings, coins/provision instants, enchantments, etc.

Third, I don’t understand why it matters if they are a few or a lot…situation is the same, of a special class, idea that I don’t really grasp; and please, don’t make the price (aka 100 $), they should be offered exactly like the first time (bases and artefacts) and at the same price.

But from the way you write, I am almost confident you belong to the special class and only try to defend it by all means…otherwise one could agree for such powerful buildings activating the fed effect should be allowed only for one building at any time.

 

[HerbFlutterwhisper]

Maybe they could add some levels to the current and upcoming evolving buildings, just like what they did in the past with the ancient wonders, then the useless leftover artifacts could become somewhat useful.
Make them up to level 15 or up to level 20 and a lot of players will be happy i think.

 

[GorGlin]

I understand you all. The value of prices in events is falling. In the main and daily. Inno writes about trying to reconcile things, while old accounts bring with them rewards that new accounts cannot compete with. But the current situation is not the way to go. Inno, constantly reduce the value of rewards. I understand that he does not want to stir up the inflationary spiral by constantly increasing. When a fiery phoenix gives 50% of the damage, how much should another "dragon" give. Such a building would bring another imbalance between players who have it and don't have it. In my opinion, there is no solution to this topic, because every solution will have sacrifices.

 

[Rill]

@Dl. Goe I am a player who restarted the game after it was possible to have multiple fire phoenixes, brown bears, moonstone libraries, etc. I agree with others who say a few people having multiples is not a big enough problem that the developers should alter the rest of the game in ways that will have other cascading consequences.

I'm puzzled about why this is of such importance to you. Does it affect you directly? How? Can you be specific?

 

[Dl. Goe]

I really don’t know how to explain it better….it is obvious that having multiple bear/phoenix is a game changer, in all aspects of the game: by all benefits they bring directly from tournament and spire (try to count them) and not-directly (aka allowing players to keep 1/3 the number of workshops, because they have plenty of PP and relics, upgrading wonders much faster, etc); and this situation creates a “special class” that didn’t do anything to deserve it, apart from investing some money when those buildings were on sale and after that…praying Inno will never bring back such offers….i don’t see why someone would defend a such aristocracy…

And one more thing: I heard way too often that “only a few people having multiple ones is not a big problem” and I consider this a very poor defence for those exactly in this situation. Let me ask: if the number of these “few poor people” would be 2 times larger how will change the situation? Or 10 times? And if it doesn’t change the game, why not having such offers on a regular basis? And the fact “only a few people” belong to this class, don’t you think it makes it worse? (even a more elite class).

And the last question: what do you have against the idea of allowing only one such kind building to be activated at any time? Because I never heard anyone agreeing with this.

 

[Lelanya]

And the last question: what do you have against the idea of allowing only one such kind building to be activated at any time? Because I never heard anyone agreeing with this.

Because this part of your proposal was unclear. I read that I could only feed one pet at a time. Um, ok, brown bear on Saturday afternoon, Fire Phoenix a couple of other times during the week, but what about the Ashen Phoenix, which is active for 30 days? Really, I thought, what would be the point of the bird at all if it costs me my fighting skills? Would I have to teleport it to storage each time i wanted to feed something else? I even specifically mentioned this (with brevity) and you didn't respond adequately.

Now if you mean, only the one Fire Phoenix can be fed, fine, I will agree there is some merit. But if you're going to say, no Lel you can't feed Brown and Polar at the same time... have you met a hungry bear? It's not a pretty sight, I wanna tell you!

 

[little bee]

And one more thing: I heard way too often that “only a few people having multiple ones is not a big problem” and I consider this a very poor defence for those exactly in this situation. Let me ask: if the number of these “few poor people” would be 2 times larger how will change the situation? Or 10 times? And if it doesn’t change the game, why not having such offers on a regular basis? And the fact “only a few people” belong to this class, don’t you think it makes it worse? (even a more elite class).

The number of players with multiple military boosts is extremely relevant for one simple reason:
It influences the developers!
They are trying to create a game that has a certain difficulty and offers the players a certain experience. For example, the early guest races were created without Portal Profits in mind. But then those began to flood the game. As a result a large number of players finished the chapter much faster than they were supposed to. So the developers created the later chapters with the assumption that everyone has PPs and playtested them with players who do. But that means that players, who don't have them, will suddenly have a much harder time.
Similar things have been known to happen with the tournament rewards: Too many players won hundres of KP each week. So the amount of KP needed for research was increased. Too many players had all their workshops enchanted all the time and a huge culture bonus on top. So the amount of supplies needed was increased.

So when only a very small number of players has these "advantages" then they only remove the challenge from their own game. But when more players have it they damadge the balance of the entire game. And in such an uncompetitive game that is a bigger problem than some players having an advantage.

And no: I do not personally have multiple phoenixes or bears. In fact, I do not even have a single fully evolved brownbear yet. But I have the chance to get one some time soon. That is enough for me.

 

[Lovec Krys]

There are always players with advantages in this game.
I bet that in future someone starts similar proposal to remove some advantage Dl. Goe will have.
And no, i don't see any of this changed.
And the only way of achieving a fair game would have to be a fresh start without any events and any payable content. And that's not going to happen.

 

[Dl. Goe]

Lovec Krys, what you say is that players accounts’ will never be equal….and I consider it normal; they should be different based on personal goals, taste, time invested, money invested, to name a few. While I say it is unfair if not all of us have the same chances, for example to benefit (or not) from multiple bears/phoenix experience.

And no, I will never try to defend my advantages acquired by forbidding the others to benefit from the same offers I have had; here the unfairness pops up….just for my curiosity, are you another one belonging to the “few special ones”?

Lelanya, I was talking all the time about one building of a type (aka brown bears – one type, polar bears – a second type) to be fed at any given time.