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Other "Produce" Pet Food in the MA as well as craft it.

ayvinul

Well-Known Member
If they add just a few more pet food (say, 3/week, as suggested), you will still feed the same pets (fire phoenix, brown bear, polar bear, twilight phoenix if you go far enough in tourney to make it worth feeding). Other pets would be fed only if there would be much more pet food than useful pets can consume.

You could occasionally feed some of the other pets, just to give yourself a treat, instead of cycling over the same ones.

Also, like I said, right now, feeding the fire phoenix each tournament can be complicated at first. I try to conserve pet foods and I look at the academy regularly, yet on my most advanced city, I'm barely at a stock of 20 pet foods, and that does go down real quick if I'm busy at work for a few days/weeks.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
No it ain't space is also a resource.

Who sais u "need" to use firebird 3 times a week sometimes 4 times?
You do not need it, you want it.

There is no need, if you do not spend 3-4 petfood your game doesnt crash and stop working.
so it's a choice, 1 way or the other.

Similar for space. people do not need the extra expansions. the game doesnt stop working if you have less.
But people do not want to make space they need and they want what they have and grow and expand that and on top of it also do chapters.

So we get the same kind of topics many times, too few petfood, to few expansions. I cannot do the chapter with this little, I cannot feed my pets as many as i like with this amount of petfood.

It's a very similar conversation. you have X and you cannot spend X+Y
So if you have X+Y targets you need to make a choice where do I spend my X petfood.

And similar with space do I need X planks factories and struggle for space in my city with guest race settlements. or do I take x-3 plank factories and use the rest fo the space for guest race goods.
I obviously cannot have both.

The reason why doesnt really matter, it doesnt matter if I do not have enough diamonds for expansiosn or build myself to big, or because I cannot see enough recipe pools and get not enough or spend more than I can ever get.

Who says I "need" to use firebird 3 times a week? You did.(*) Just here. At the very least, I didn't. You're making up positions to argue against.

What I talked about was the very large marginal utility of a little extra / less pet food. Without a minimal amount of pet food, I would be able to clear far, far fewer provinces during the tournament and possibly not get to the top of the spire either, which would cause me to lose the gold spire bonuses and have far fewer CC spells. All this would substantially change the game experience.

By contrast, one more or less expansion makes not much difference to me. I could lose several expansions and still function the same way I'm doing now. I'd have to drop a workshop and would have less employed population to generate unurium, but that wouldn't cramp my playstyle very much.

At the very least, Inno keeps giving us pet effects that we can't afford to use. Just spending pet food on the same thing and only that thing makes the game much less interesting.

Having just a little more pet food would change things much more than having an extra expansion or two. That huge difference in marginal utility is why I say they aren't comparable.

(*) Edit for clarification: By this, I mean you introduced the proposition, not that you asserted it was true. However, that does imply that I asserted it was true when I did not.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Who says I "need" to use firebird 3 times a week? You did.(*) Just here. At the very least, I didn't. You're making up positions to argue against.

What I talked about was the very large marginal utility of a little extra / less pet food. Without a minimal amount of pet food, I would be able to clear far, far fewer provinces during the tournament and possibly not get to the top of the spire either, which would cause me to lose the gold spire bonuses and have far fewer CC spells. All this would substantially change the game experience.

By contrast, one more or less expansion makes not much difference to me. I could lose several expansions and still function the same way I'm doing now. I'd have to drop a workshop and would have less employed population to generate unurium, but that wouldn't cramp my playstyle very much.

At the very least, Inno keeps giving us pet effects that we can't afford to use. Just spending pet food on the same thing and only that thing makes the game much less interesting.

Having just a little more pet food would change things much more than having an extra expansion or two. That huge difference in marginal utility is why I say they aren't comparable.

(*) Edit for clarification: By this, I mean you introduced the proposition, not that you asserted it was true. However, that does imply that I asserted it was true when I did not.
You argue that the weight is different of the resource (in your opinion) which depending on how you play the game might be either right or wrong as it will be personal.

My point is that to a certain degree this game is a resource management game.
You have to manage the resources you have, to me it doesnt matter if those resources are goods, pet food, units, timeboosters, or city space or some other finite resource.

In your argument you admit that more or less petfood can have a huge impact (for those that fight a lot). and thats also my point. to control that impact (balance) you need a limited amount of resources. this way cool and strong pets can contiinue to be made. it's then up to you how to allocate those powerfull pets with the limited resources you have.

If we could feed a lot more pets a lot more times, then we should assume people have those pets and activate them. this throws off balance. which in turn forces the makers to make sucky pets,
I like good pets not just for myself but also for the newcommers. some of us have loads of awesome pets, but new players have a very limited selection. if the makers continue to release cool pets at some point new players will just be as powerfull as we are. why. well limited pet food forces us who have the advantage to make choices. and at some point a new player and an advanced player will have the same amound of pet food to throw at it.

When you introduce more petfood into the game, that entry barrier for players less advanced will become a lot higher as those like myself can extend our lead for a lot more time to come.

This is why making difficult choices is better than the cop out solution of not making choices and getting more petfood.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
You argue that the weight is different of the resource (in your opinion) which depending on how you play the game might be either right or wrong as it will be personal.

My point is that to a certain degree this game is a resource management game.
You have to manage the resources you have, to me it doesnt matter if those resources are goods, pet food, units, timeboosters, or city space or some other finite resource.

In your argument you admit that more or less petfood can have a huge impact (for those that fight a lot). and thats also my point. to control that impact (balance) you need a limited amount of resources. this way cool and strong pets can contiinue to be made. it's then up to you how to allocate those powerfull pets with the limited resources you have.

If we could feed a lot more pets a lot more times, then we should assume people have those pets and activate them. this throws off balance. which in turn forces the makers to make sucky pets,
I like good pets not just for myself but also for the newcommers. some of us have loads of awesome pets, but new players have a very limited selection. if the makers continue to release cool pets at some point new players will just be as powerfull as we are. why. well limited pet food forces us who have the advantage to make choices. and at some point a new player and an advanced player will have the same amound of pet food to throw at it.

When you introduce more petfood into the game, that entry barrier for players less advanced will become a lot higher as those like myself can extend our lead for a lot more time to come.

This is why making difficult choices is better than the cop out solution of not making choices and getting more petfood.

Of course it's a resource management game, and of course it needs to be scarce for the economy to function. I haven't been disagreeing with any of that. I even agree that is a valid response to people asking for more expansions.

But in balancing, there is such a thing as "too scarce". There is a point where that scarcity makes things break down. I'm arguing that we are there already.

You keep mentioning multiple pets. Using pet food on something instead of the fire phoenix would be a foolish mistake (for a fighter (*)). If you don't have enough pet food to feed the fire phoenix and have any left over, then in effect there is only 1 pet that uses pet food. The other pets become traps to fool you into wasting your valuable pet food. I don't think that's good game design and leads to bad play experiences and resentment, and I don't think that's how it was intended to work.

(*) Yes, you can argue for different gameplay styles the fire phoenix is not useful and other pets are useful instead. However, the scaling on negotiations vs resources like seeds makes fighting effectively a requirement for success at high-level play. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, and perhaps there should be more effective styles of play, with different pets to support each. That's a valid argument, and I'd even support that on the grounds that diversity is good game design, but that's not where the game is right now.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
To have more choices of where to use pet food you need just to level up to ch15 and build timewarp.
For now I feed 2x fire phoenixes + 1x twilight phoenix + 2x brown bears every week, 1x polar bear every other week and 1x ashen phoenix every event. And will feed another twilight phoenix every week after upcoming FA, may be at the cost of feeding bears every other week (for me feeding second stage6 twilight phoenix would be more beneficial than feeding brown bear if I go up to 40+ provinces, which I do every tournament).
If I would have 2 or 4 more weekly pet foods - I would just feed brown bears more often without any doubts. Or feed some upcoming useful pet when it appear (like that happened with twilight phoenix).
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
But in balancing, there is such a thing as "too scarce". There is a point where that scarcity makes things break down. I'm arguing that we are there already.
May I point out that I have been playing this game since 2015,
Tournament did not happen untill 2016?
Fire phoenix was introduced in 2019?

This means the game worked just fine for the 4 years before there was a phoenix, tournament existed for 3 years before the phoenix was introduced.

The game will not end, when you cannot feed your pets. there is no thing as too scarce.
btw I did a large sample test about a year ago counting over a thousand of MA cycles and found out there is about 7-8 opportunities per week* to get a pet food in the MA, to me thats not scarce. yes it showed there are bad weeks with 4 opportunities and amazing weeks with 12-15.
But you have to sieze the opportunity and thats where it lack for most people, it requires dedicated logins and pickups during each cycle.

And as Karvest said work towards the end of chapter 14 and unlock timewarp to get a more favorable use of your petfood. while i prefect that wonder earlier in the tech tree (it has a lotmore benefits that pet food use, and you could argue no pet food can ever beat timewarp)

* note: during easter and autumn events the droprate of petfood drops down a lot due to exessive droprates of event related recipes, also since the counting a few more very low chance recipes have been added possibly lowering the pet food drop rate with a little bit so it might be more like 7 opportunities than 8.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
May I point out that I have been playing this game since 2015,
Tournament did not happen untill 2016?
Fire phoenix was introduced in 2019?

This means the game worked just fine for the 4 years before there was a phoenix, tournament existed for 3 years before the phoenix was introduced.

The game will not end, when you cannot feed your pets. there is no thing as too scarce.
btw I did a large sample test about a year ago counting over a thousand of MA cycles and found out there is about 7-8 opportunities per week* to get a pet food in the MA, to me thats not scarce. yes it showed there are bad weeks with 4 opportunities and amazing weeks with 12-15.
But you have to sieze the opportunity and thats where it lack for most people, it requires dedicated logins and pickups during each cycle.

And as Karvest said work towards the end of chapter 14 and unlock timewarp to get a more favorable use of your petfood. while i prefect that wonder earlier in the tech tree (it has a lotmore benefits that pet food use, and you could argue no pet food can ever beat timewarp)

* note: during easter and autumn events the droprate of petfood drops down a lot due to exessive droprates of event related recipes, also since the counting a few more very low chance recipes have been added possibly lowering the pet food drop rate with a little bit so it might be more like 7 opportunities than 8.

There are challenges now that weren't in the game before, which makes your historical argument irrelevant.

Your sample test a year ago is irrelevant if the scarcity of pet food has changed since then.

In game design, a resource can become too scarce if nearly all options for spending are ignored because the resource is too valuable to waste on anything other than a specific use. In a situation this extreme, increasing the supply can lead to more difficult decisions since there is now a disposable supply to spend on things other than a specific use.

Yes, getting more pet food does require dedicated logins and pickups during each cycle, and that's precisely what I'm objecting to. My schedule has changed in a way that I can't do that anymore. I've found workarounds for every other aspect of the game, except that one. Pet food is the one sticking point that makes the game not work for my schedule.

Now, every time I log into the game, I curse it and resent it for requiring that. If I'm feeling that way about the game, that's a problem with the game.

Oh, and timewarp only does so much without a polar bear -- now that I'm down to 2 rounds / day, more levels won't actually do anything for me. Theoretically, I could get it down to 3 rounds in a day, but my schedule doesn't allow for that in practice. I would need to get it down to ~3 hours for a round before it could benefit me any more.

In summary, this one aspect of the game is the only thing that makes the game not particularly viable with my current schedule. Thus, it is a source of resentment for me, and I want the devs to know that. Bad play experiences are relevant.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
There are challenges now that weren't in the game before, which makes your historical argument irrelevant.
Lol,

Challenges like what?
Those combat buildings added to crafting? those buildings that make the power of petfood weaker as you have an alternative powerboost?
Or the spire? I play the psire every week on my main not using a single petfood. (I use it on my second but not my main)

Just because something changed history becomes irrelivant? History is to be learned from not to be ignored.

Your sample test a year ago is irrelevant if the scarcity of pet food has changed since then.

In game design, a resource can become too scarce if nearly all options for spending are ignored because the resource is too valuable to waste on anything other than a specific use. In a situation this extreme, increasing the supply can lead to more difficult decisions since there is now a disposable supply to spend on things other than a specific use.

Yes, getting more pet food does require dedicated logins and pickups during each cycle, and that's precisely what I'm objecting to. My schedule has changed in a way that I can't do that anymore. I've found workarounds for every other aspect of the game, except that one. Pet food is the one sticking point that makes the game not work for my schedule.

Now, every time I log into the game, I curse it and resent it for requiring that. If I'm feeling that way about the game, that's a problem with the game.

Oh, and timewarp only does so much without a polar bear -- now that I'm down to 2 rounds / day, more levels won't actually do anything for me. Theoretically, I could get it down to 3 rounds in a day, but my schedule doesn't allow for that in practice. I would need to get it down to ~3 hours for a round before it could benefit me any more.

In summary, this one aspect of the game is the only thing that makes the game not particularly viable with my current schedule. Thus, it is a source of resentment for me, and I want the devs to know that. Bad play experiences are relevant.
Just because it's a different kind of orange doesnt make it orange anymore?
It's still orange. there might be minor changes but it's not that the droprate has changed that much.

In game design, a resource can become too scarce if nearly all options for spending are ignored because the resource is too valuable to waste on anything other than a specific use. In a situation this extreme, increasing the supply can lead to more difficult decisions since there is now a disposable supply to spend on things other than a specific use.

Yes, getting more pet food does require dedicated logins and pickups during each cycle, and that's precisely what I'm objecting to. My schedule has changed in a way that I can't do that anymore. I've found workarounds for every other aspect of the game, except that one. Pet food is the one sticking point that makes the game not work for my schedule.

Now, every time I log into the game, I curse it and resent it for requiring that. If I'm feeling that way about the game, that's a problem with the game.

Oh, and timewarp only does so much without a polar bear -- now that I'm down to 2 rounds / day, more levels won't actually do anything for me. Theoretically, I could get it down to 3 rounds in a day, but my schedule doesn't allow for that in practice. I would need to get it down to ~3 hours for a round before it could benefit me any more.

In summary, this one aspect of the game is the only thing that makes the game not particularly viable with my current schedule. Thus, it is a source of resentment for me, and I want the devs to know that. Bad play experiences are relevant.
So any RPG is a flawed game, because points / XP is soo valuable and there is so little points with millions of options/combinations to choose from. making choices is a bad thing.

But here comes the truth, your preferences changed.
You are at a point you might no longer like the game as you once did.
You're at a point all of us once will come, and we either move on to pastures new, or we find the fun again in some way. usually because of change.

You are now at a point where putting in effort in a game is no longer fun or a challenge but a burden.
You just hope if everything comes easy and without a challenge it will bring fun again (for a short while)

What you need is something new, change. not the same thing made dumb en easy thats only works for a very short time and then you still move on.

Btw each time these topics pop up I wonder where you all where when they dropped more petfood and people complained we gained to many and did this so vigorously that they initially removed 2/3 of the supply (6 of the 9 got removed and we gained some back with a 4rth recipe later)
 

SyreArca

Game Moderator
Elvenar Team
Okay guys. This discussion is becoming too personal and starting to run in circles. Thank you both for your detailed view points.
We appreciate everyone's opinions and thorough thoughts!
Let's agree to disagree here and move on. If you would like to debate your thoughts further, please do so privately.
This is a place where all feedback is welcome and we need to allow every player the space and respect to do so, while knowing when to end a debate with another player.
Thank you. :)
 
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