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Old news, but still...

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I know the tournament formula is pretty much settled and inno apparently likes the way it is, but I'd like to just say once more how lame it is that this doesn't excite me anymore.
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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Inno must feel like pushing this on the Live servers right now, too. I am not sure for how long now, but the expansions sales have regularly popped up during the final week of the events, and not at any other time. This is the first one to show up outside an event in maybe 2 years?
 

Rill

Active Member
It's my understanding that there is still an advantage to placing premium expansions vs. regular expansions -- that premium expansions have less of a negative effect than regular expansions. If one put in premium expansions instead of, not in addition to, province or research expansions, then it would actually be better for tournament and Spire costs. That was enough to entice me to buy one on my main world.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
It's my understanding that there is still an advantage to placing premium expansions vs. regular expansions -- that premium expansions have less of a negative effect than regular expansions. If one put in premium expansions instead of, not in addition to, province or research expansions, then it would actually be better for tournament and Spire costs. That was enough to entice me to buy one on my main world.
That's true, but if you reach a point where you don't want to make the tournament either a bit harder or a lot harder then neither one excites you.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
It's my understanding that there is still an advantage to placing premium expansions vs. regular expansions -- that premium expansions have less of a negative effect than regular expansions. If one put in premium expansions instead of, not in addition to, province or research expansions, then it would actually be better for tournament and Spire costs. That was enough to entice me to buy one on my main world.
Yeah it's not an "either/or" at this point.
Both are bad now and this was the one thing I used to work hard at earning diamonds for.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
My live game where I've placed all expansions I have my squad size recorded in February and I just looked for this tournament and it has increased by 23.2%. It seems to me that the tech for the military buildings only increases the speed by 5%. In my live FS we are feeling like our ability for tournament score has been slaughtered by 1-2k just because of the gross level of downgrade from chapter 18.

Regressive isn't really a strong enough word to describe the total backwards design of the game.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
this is bad and for me proof that the game has enormous problems in the design of progress.
It is bigger proof that big egos are at the helm to have ignored the most widely protested change in Inno history. How many hundreds of pages of complaints? Big egos go with enormous blindness to what's right in front of them.

Exactly what was foretold in the complaints is happening, and at a far greater slaughter rate than I imagined. I did a 12k tournament on live last week and I drained about 25% of resources that I had built up in the year ahead of this disaster. We did our first time all 19 chests, but I was able to maintain around 10k score when this came out and looked at how my resources are draining, I'd doubt very much I can maintain 9k now and I think 8500 is more realistic. So, shall chapter 19 bring on 7500? It is just so stupid, and the problems were well outlined and foretold.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
It is bigger proof that big egos are at the helm to have ignored the most widely protested change in Inno history. How many hundreds of pages of complaints? Big egos go with enormous blindness to what's right in front of them.

Exactly what was foretold in the complaints is happening, and at a far greater slaughter rate than I imagined. I did a 12k tournament on live last week and I drained about 25% of resources that I had built up in the year ahead of this disaster. We did our first time all 19 chests, but I was able to maintain around 10k score when this came out and looked at how my resources are draining, I'd doubt very much I can maintain 9k now and I think 8500 is more realistic. So, shall chapter 19 bring on 7500? It is just so stupid, and the problems were well outlined and foretold.

I do not mind the change in principle, I believe in principle the change was a good change.
It's just the implementation itself that's horribly executed.

A formula that they use now should have never gotten past the design phase.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I do not mind the change in principle, I believe in principle the change was a good change.
It's just the implementation itself that's horribly executed.

A formula that they use now should have never gotten past the design phase.
I think the vast majority of comments weren't against a change in principle, but:
1) The tournament difficulty increase is too steep.
2) The increase in squad size from AW levels is too high.
3) The penalty for purchased land expansions is too high and there should not be any penalty here.

With chapter 18 I'm also thinking the increase in squad size from the tech tree is probably also too high.
It looks to me that there were 17 mandatory tech in chapter 17 and 36 in chapter 18.

So, when I look at just the mercenary camp, there is no chapter 16 upgrade, but chapter 15 give a speed increase of 385 to 450, which is an increase of (450-350)/350 = 28.6% for two chapters, say 14.3% each.

Chapter 17 has two upgrades, from 450 to 500, which is (500-450)/450 = 11.1% increase, or roughly a 29% decline in the boost to the training speed from chapter 15/16. ((14.3/11.1)-1)*100%= 28.8%, the increase to training speed for chapter 15 and 16 was 29% higher.

Chapter 18 is beyond a disaster and you have to question who's in charge of the numbers. You get only one upgrade where the speed goes from 500 to 525, which is (525-500)/500 = a 5% increase in troop training speed. When you compare chapter 15/16 to chapter 18, well, ((14.3/5)-1)*100%, double wow, the increase to the training speed was 186% higher.

If I go back further, chapter 13 to 15 the speed went from 250 to 350 which is (350-250)/250=40%, so a 20% increase in troop speed for each chapter and that increase is 300% greater than the troop speed increase for chapter 18.

It really looks to me that each chapter should have a minimum 15% increase in trading speed, and probably it should be more like 18%.

So, if we go back to chapter 13 and apply an 18% increase in training speed per chapter, we've got 6 chapters and a starting speed of 250. 250*1.18^6 gives a training speed of 675, or about 29% higher than we have now. A 20% increase in training speed would be 250*1.20^6 would give a current training speed of 750, or 43% higher.

I haven't even looked at the numbers in the slaughter in the ability to produce goods.

A start to fixing this would be to make it so only the higher of either AW for a chapter is included in making squad size increase, taking out premium land expansions, and adjusting the tournament difficult so 200% difficulty is reach for province 50 level 6.

And the thing is, I know that my training size is up 23.2% since February, so even a 20% chapter increase isn't keeping up.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I think the vast majority of comments weren't against a change in principle, but:
1) The tournament difficulty increase is too steep.
2) The increase in squad size from AW levels is too high.
3) The penalty for purchased land expansions is too high and there should not be any penalty here.
I cannot agree that the difficulty increase is too steep, it was a measure to cut the fact that tournaments became a who has the most unlocked province game. I do agree that I do not like the amount of units needed in the first 15 or so provinces. the losses to experiment are to big to my liking. but it's a choice to stop people doing 80-100 provinces a week. and thats a choice I can agree with

2,3 are points you keep repeating but that is not the issue at all, it's the way the formula is designed thats the issue.
The issue's are:
1: the exponential increase in difficulty for mandatory research, any exponential scale is an issue unless everything in the game uses an exponential scale. these types of scaling simply turns out of control at an increased rate. currently the game gives a lower increase in each chapter, while the exponential scale of the mandatory research does the opposith and it's growth in difficulty increased with each research.
2: Wonderlevels and expansions multiply with research and eachother. therefore it's not ansemi fixed added difficuylty that makes sense to some degree, but a difficulty that exceggartes the effect of it depending on the other values, the bigger the "other values" the more screwed it becomes.
It makes a huge difference of you multiply x by 1 and 2 or by 3 and 4. 2 vs 12 is a 6 times difference in added difficulty.

For players who have lots of research, lots of wonderlevels and lots of expansions these values go out of control and far out of the spec they claimed that was intended.

I have no issue if wonders make it a bit more difficult, or expansions make it a bit more difficult, bus as it's designed now it can be either a bit, or a giant leaf in difficulty. and therefore the claim that each improvement would be one, is a clear lie. it is in a certain phase of the game. but once you become a big fish you are screwed in 1 way or the other.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I cannot agree that the difficulty increase is too steep, it was a measure to cut the fact that tournaments became a who has the most unlocked province game. I do agree that I do not like the amount of units needed in the first 15 or so provinces. the losses to experiment are to big to my liking. but it's a choice to stop people doing 80-100 provinces a week. and thats a choice I can agree with
My suggestion of putting the difficult at 200% for province 50 level 6 is 25% more difficult that the old tournament and where it is now is 39% more difficult. Before the military boosts and the birds the 160% difficulty level was mostly skipped and for most that were playing a lot of provinces 145% difficulty was the hardest they did.

They went to 1% more difficult for each province after the difficulty reached about 200% on province 35 level 1. I think the difficulty should go up by 2.5% from province 50 level 6. That would ensure the number of provinces people do would not get out of control.

2,3 are points you keep repeating but that is not the issue at all, it's the way the formula is designed thats the issue.
The issue's are:
1: the exponential increase in difficulty for mandatory research, any exponential scale is an issue unless everything in the game uses an exponential scale. these types of scaling simply turns out of control at an increased rate. currently the game gives a lower increase in each chapter, while the exponential scale of the mandatory research does the opposith and it's growth in difficulty increased with each research.
2: Wonderlevels and expansions multiply with research and eachother. therefore it's not ansemi fixed added difficuylty that makes sense to some degree, but a difficulty that exceggartes the effect of it depending on the other values, the bigger the "other values" the more screwed it becomes.
It makes a huge difference of you multiply x by 1 and 2 or by 3 and 4. 2 vs 12 is a 6 times difference in added difficulty.
What I see fits the formula for the data is that to go from no AW to max AW in chapter 17 results in a squad size that was 413% of the squad size without any AWs. What I calculate if only one AW from each chapter was included would by a squad size that is 270% of the squad size without any AW. I think the AW penalty is still too high with this idea
AWs are being skipped because of what they do to squad size and if only the higher of two AW from a chapter counted, the second AW might be beneficial.

For players who have lots of research, lots of wonderlevels and lots of expansions these values go out of control and far out of the spec they claimed that was intended.

I have no issue if wonders make it a bit more difficult, or expansions make it a bit more difficult, bus as it's designed now it can be either a bit, or a giant leaf in difficulty. and therefore the claim that each improvement would be one, is a clear lie. it is in a certain phase of the game. but once you become a big fish you are screwed in 1 way or the other.
In chapter 17 placing all the premium expansions increased squad size by about 25% Ok, so some of the numbers I got playing with the calculator
No premium expansions, no AW squad size 443.
Maximum expansions made squad size go to 552.9, a troop size increase of 110 with 37 expansions, or about 3 troops per expansion.

No premium expansion and max AW gives a squad size of 1832 and adding those 37 expansions increases it to 2286 or a squad size increase of 454 and 12.3 extra troops per expansion-- 4.3 times the troop size increase of a person without AW. It is a double penalty, AW penalty being leveled again on the expansion.

If you got rid of the penalty for the lower of the two AWs per chapter and the premium expansions the squad size difference would be limited to 270%, which is considerably bigger considering with the old tournament there was a max 50% difference whether you had the optional ss tech or not.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
I give it 2 more chapters, before the effects of the formula becomes unignorable by the dev team, by then there will be a good chance that they change this formula again before tourney & Spire becomes completely unplayable by end game players.

The 3rd floor of the Spire is already more or less unnegotiable for many end game players thanks to the large required quantities of seeds & mana, and maybe they are aware of it, so that might be why they didn't include unurium once we got ch18 (tried it on beta where my wonders levels & expansions are much lower than on live currently resulting in 80% more expensive T&S on live than on beta.

On live i was forced to switch to fighting only with the FR-Tourney, FR-Spire, SU-Spire, TU-Tourney combo as the last resort to keep at least some decent tourney score, but currently lowering to 8k already and with the next chapter probably even 8k will be too high for me - i'm going to keep some records of how the top 50 tournaments players by chapter changes over time.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I give it 2 more chapters, before the effects of the formula becomes unignorable by the dev team, by then there will be a good chance that they change this formula again before tourney & Spire becomes completely unplayable by end game players.

The 3rd floor of the Spire is already more or less unnegotiable for many end game players thanks to the large required quantities of seeds & mana, and maybe they are aware of it, so that might be why they didn't include unurium once we got ch18 (tried it on beta where my wonders levels & expansions are much lower than on live currently resulting in 80% more expensive T&S on live than on beta.

On live i was forced to switch to fighting only with the FR-Tourney, FR-Spire, SU-Spire, TU-Tourney combo as the last resort to keep at least some decent tourney score, but currently lowering to 8k already and with the next chapter probably even 8k will be too high for me - i'm going to keep some records of how the top 50 tournaments players by chapter changes over time.
Spire has a one chapter delay for a new resource so it is possible we'll see unurium in chapter 19. It is probably advisable to get that unurium AW going.
 
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