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new units

DeletedUser762

Guest
ok, so m b its not new, an d haven't been reading the treads, but here it goes. I have given up fighting provinces for a long time Thought I'd build my strength, get new units. Got orcs warriors, enhanced "doggies", whatever their name is, fairies etc. Got size upgrades a few time. Tried today. I have chosen carefully, taking into account what they are good against etc. Defeat 3 times on auto. And I am not that far as some of you into the provinces, basically takes about 1.8 days to scout, not sure what ring it is. It still doesn't work! what is the point of all of those "wonderful" new units? what is the point of specifying what they are good against? they are no good! I know there was a discussions how the devs don't want us to go far in exploring etc... But I am still very annoyed about the situation. No more provinces fights, it's bad! what is that you supposed to do? ok, u want us to do tournaments , but there should be a choice, I want to do provinces. Now you want ppl to scout in your quest. what if there is nothing to scout any more?
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
an d haven't been reading the treads
Then I'd suggest to start by reading this and this thread. It will probably clear a lot of things up for you :)

Since you mainly have some questions, I'll move this thread now to the appropriate section for you, so others can help you out. If you want to leave actual feedback, please use the abovementioned threads for that :)
 

DeletedUser762

Guest
marindor, ok, thanks for moving it. its a lot to read though, when all briefly I can see from the threads ppl argued with you all the time, and nothing has been done. when you read a manual of 10 pages how to play the game, you kind of lose the interest, don't you think? In any game I normally work out for myself, what to do, and now its completely and utter pointless. I tried, using the game (ie. unit is best fighting this and that) maximising the chance of winning, and it doesn't work.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
My suspicion is the combat difficulty more than the new units. I am yet to test the new units as much as I would like so can't comment directly about them.

When deciding on a fight the first thing you need to do is check the combat difficulty. Sadly this isn't something that is provided in-game so you have to manually calculate it :confused::oops:. There is a suggestion for this to be added into the game.

To calculate the difficulty look at the enemy squad size and your own. If the enemy squad is not 5 then:
enemy squad size X number of squads / 5 = normalised squad size

Then you can compare the 2 squad sizes and determine difficulty. If the ratio/number is 2 or more then save your troops and don't bother fighting. If your new to fighting in the current system then tournaments are the best place to learn as the ratios are fixed and squads are smaller so it is easier to learn with less troop loss if you make a mistake.


All the maths is a pain but you don't need to do it on every encounter and it can save you from wasting your troops.
 

DeletedUser762

Guest
thank you for your input mykan. i'll take a look. but the point is: since when the relaxing "city building game" as advertised with a little bit of fighting on the site has become a complicating almost like chess like calculating game, and for something that suppose to just provide a little entertainment on the side? do they advertise it as: complicated battle game, where its impossible to complete a battle, unless u sit there with the calculator? no. FOE is a war game, but even they did not do such a silly thing.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
I do agree with the issue of complexity. Thankfully they have taken some steps towards this but more is needed.
 

ophion

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that Innogames cannot make a straight forward city building game despite all the promises that Elvenar would never go down the route of other games where battles were essential to continue playing. We now have so many different units to contend with that it's completely taken over the once peaceful game we originally joined and become more involved to the point of total confusion.
I'm sick and tired of all the chat about not being able to compete in Tournaments, complete provinces etc, all because of the extremely complicated and confusing load of junk that none of us wanted in the first place...but in the end had no choice...despite us saying NO!
I joined Elvenar to create a beautiful city with great graphics and enjoy a few peaceful hours of an evening with friends. I now have to spend my time building loads of ugly buildings I didn't want in the first place...and training units to fight just so I can continue to play the game.
At this time, I have a reasonably attractive training grounds building at level 8...but if I want to continue to grow in Elvenar and reach level 9...I have to return to an ugly Orc monstrosity...just as the Armories turned from being really beautiful buildings into Orc slums. If this is the way of Elvenar then maybe my time here is limited after all. As sad as it is...that's how things are going.:(
With the arrival of the WoodElves, I thought that maybe things were turning around for the better...but I guess once you contaminate an Elven city with Orc dung...it takes a long time for the smell to go away.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to let you know (although you probably know this already) that all your feedback is continuesly being forwarded (please do make sure to leave it in the feedback threads as well though, so we can't miss anything). Two questions I'd like to ask you at this moment:

I tried, using the game (ie. unit is best fighting this and that) maximising the chance of winning, and it doesn't work.
Do you have any specific scenarios where battles should be winnable (so not against troops that are 3-4 times bigger as yours, but around the same size or slightly bigger), where the information shown to you in this regard, was wrong? If so, could you please provide us with the following exact information:

* Enemy units and squad sizes
* Your units and squad sizes
* Which "advice" from the game was wrong (and if possible: why it didn't work)
* If it was on Auto-Battle or Manual
* If possible: What made the information not work as intended?

If we have this information, we can forward it for further investigation to see if we need to change anything to the ingame "unit advice".

My suspicion is the combat difficulty more than the new units.
We're working on improving battle communication and simplifying the choice about which units you'd best use against which enemies (as you've undoubtedly noticed already). If you have any specific tips/ideas for us on how we can make it more easy to understand, please let us know. We're very open to ideas about this :)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,

We're working on improving battle communication and simplifying the choice about which units you'd best use against which enemies (as you've undoubtedly noticed already). If you have any specific tips/ideas for us on how we can make it more easy to understand, please let us know. We're very open to ideas about this :)
Return to the old unit layout, the new one is brainlessly dumb. because those swords say a lot and actually nothing at all.
right now we have to go trough several steps to collect the data how to correctly use this unit, while it was very obvious in the old layout.

Example A: If a monster has 80% dr against light ranged than it's good agains light ranged
Example B: If a monster 80% damage increase agains light ranged it's good agains light ranged.

I really cant make it more obvious than that.

We quickly ignore stuff like hp and damage for example sake

Now both units get a 4 "sword" rating agains light ranged.
But how does it tell which unit is the best to use? is it Unit A or Unit B?

the swords wont tell me anything, but the losses are much higher (most likely you still win) if you use an offensive troup defensivly and a defensive unit offensive.

This is actually quite important especially since you are creeating "neutral" units and an offensive and defensive unit of each type.(barrack, mercenary camp/training grounds)
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
What CrazyWizard said. Losing that information to view quickly and easily makes fight choices harder/longer to make. If there was an easy way to add it to what is there would help.

@Marindor The only other thing I could think of was put in as an idea/suggestion in that section of the forum. While I understand determining a combat difficulty isn't necessarily straight forward I think some form of difficulty indicator would help. It allows people expectations of likelihood to win, possible losses or to decide whether they might be better to negotiate/cater that fight.
 

shadowblack

Well-Known Member
We're working on improving battle communication and simplifying the choice about which units you'd best use against which enemies (as you've undoubtedly noticed already). If you have any specific tips/ideas for us on how we can make it more easy to understand, please let us know. We're very open to ideas about this :)
Well, the most obvious is: Go back to displaying the actual percentages for Attack and Defense bonuses. The swords make it more difficult to see how good each unit is, and thus more difficult to choose the best units for a particular battle. In fact, in some cases the swords are misleading.

For example, Sacred Priest (from the EN server, but it should be the same here on Beta): 4 swords against Heavy Melee and 4 swords against Heavy Ranged. Makes it seem like the unit is equally good against Heavy Melee and Heavy Ranged, but that is definitely NOT the case. The Sacred Priest has 70% Attack bonus and NO Defense bonus against Heavy Melee, and at the same time has 80% Atttack bonus and -80% Defense bonus against Heavy Ranged. In other words the Sacred Priest is much better against Heavy Ranged than against Heavy Melee. In some cases a different Mage unit might be a better choice against a large number of Heavy Melee enemies. The "4 swords" rating could mislead some players into choosing the wrong units.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
The other misleading thing is the unit highlights when you hover over your units. It is great to see a quick highlight of what it is good against but neutral targets also highlight and there is no distinction between a highlight for neutral or a highlight for best against. Either make the highl;ights different for neutral/best or remove the highlight for neutral.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I started whining about this change since the moment it was introduced and it just keeps rolling on becomming worse and worse

So I expect them to ignore this anyway like an austrich putting his head into the sand, because otherwise some developers pride becomes hurt since his work is declared a disaster and his work fruitless.
How many effort did it take and how many players did quit, even on live servers when the wholesaler change got rolled back?
I dont see players quit over this. So I dont expect any proper result of our genuine complaints.

Without mayor financial consequenses I dont see them addmiting them there wrong.
 

Grace

Well-Known Member
I agree that the dumbed-down "traffic light" style approach to the fighting is not helping. While I like seeing visually that I have chosen units that will / will not work against the enemy, I agree that we are seeing incomplete and therefore misleading information. Scale back on the oversimplication please. We need to see offense/defense separately so we can make some educated choices.
 

DeletedUser762

Guest
well no Marindor, I cannot help you with that, because I am not even attempting to fight the provinces now, what is the point? but even in the lame tournament battles, I have now died a few times. I can say why. because what you show is the "best" to fight against turns out not to be the best. Like all the people said (above), the combinations just don't work that well and are misleading.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Scale back on the oversimplication please. We need to see offense/defense separately so we can make some educated choices.
I dont mind oversimplication, but then it has to be as simple as they point out. For example i want to win against light melee with a golem who has 3 stars against light melee. This is now not the case at all. since golem has no defense against the light melee and if an enemy sorceress is there an enemy with -80% damage taken is not even good against their 5 star enemys. I for example kill enemy steinlings with swords, this doesnt make sense at all.

So i dont mind oversimplication, but i do mind lieing to your customers because it looks prettier.

i see for example that archers got replaced by dryads in this tournament, and while the simplified help, you will think that taking 5 sorceress is a good idea in this (gems) tournament against 8 enemies, you will get slaughtered with the dryads (and the low range of the sorceress) if there are 2 troups of those dryads in there.

also having 8 enemy troops = more units to kill and more debuffs to counter, doesnt make sense at all, nor does having 2 enemy troups = less units and less debuffs.

in my opinion >5 enemys = more debuffs to counter and ofcourse a little less units to fight, <5 enemy troups = less debuffs to counter so more enemy units. And if you dont want to do that, just make it equal always even that makes more sense then it does now.

theres a lot wrong with the current implementation of combat and hiding it under beautifull picture only makes it worse
 

Urvalsandal

Well-Known Member
It's been said a few times already, so I'll just throw in my vote: Yes, that simplified-help-system-for-dummies is lame.
 

Jasper

Guest
I believe the new units (Mist Walker/Orc Strategist) on enemy site are to strong.

Can anyone tell my how I could loose this ? :confused: Tournament round 4, 1st province :
lose.PNG

Five 3 stars Bud Sorceress versus mostly 1 star Heavy Range/Melee units against which it is supposed to be very good according to the pentagon and only one 1 star Mist Walker who is good against Mage units, results (on auto):
loose.PNG

I don't get it, what's going wrong ??? :eek: We use to win such a fight without any problems but no longer. :(

This one is even worse:
loose2.PNG


On the Live server we don't have Mist Walker and other new units yet and there I don't have any trouble fighting such a battle on auto.
 
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Dony

King of Bugs
its because of map, this tournament has maps which block all our unit from top till down, only 1 tile on the bottom is opened
 

shadowblack

Well-Known Member
Yeah, usually when this sort of thing happens it's because of the map - the AI simply has no idea what to do when the movement of the player units is greatly limited by the terrain.

Also, both the Mist Walker and the Orc Deserter have Strike Back, so they retaliate to your Sorceresses, further increasing your losses. And last but not least, Mist Walkers have very high Initiative, so if the terrain allows it they will hit one of your squads before you even get to move.

Unfortunately, this is considered "Not a Bug" (see here)