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Knowledge Sharing Fellowship Perks

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Mykan

Member
But it annoys me, that the "free KP" button replaces the "bulk kp" button.

That good to know and personally is far more worth of 4 pages of comlplaints.
I am also curious if people feel 1 kp per perk level is reasonable with the way the costs for perks increase?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
For example when you have 5 bulk KP that you want to invest into AW to get appropriate chest and have 6 free KP to invest somewhere else later. Not a big issue and won't happen often, but possible.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
For example when you have 5 bulk KP that you want to invest into AW to get appropriate chest and have 6 free KP to invest somewhere else later. Not a big issue and won't happen often, but possible.
Interesting...
You'd only be in that situation in Net0, right? I never use my bulk KP on other's wonders in Net0, just instants.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Yes and no. AW is multiplicative with research, but AW is additive with AW. That is, each new AW level matters less (multiplicatively) than the one before it.

And as a mathematician, I have to object that it's not growing exponentially when the number of factors is fixed. It's only mandatory research that is exponential. The other factors are just linear (with an offset).

So, yes, I think the research portion is too much. The other factors grow in a reasonable fashion. It's research that's the problem.

Edit/Addendum: There are also some scaling issues for goods (eg seeds and the like) other than manufactured goods, but that's getting further from the point/topic.

The AW factor isn't all that punishing if the AW is one of the good ones.
There are 3 components multiplied, tech, expansions and AW levels.

There are 1185 AW levels to the range of the squad size difference from this factor alone from no AW levels (factor =1) to 1185 AW levels (0.003*1185 +1)=4.555, so this multiplication factor can be between 1 and 4.555. But the actual hit from the AW level is dependent on the number of land expansions. The more land expansions, the bigger the hit from each AW level.

So, there are 53 chapter expansions, 64 province expansions and 41 premium expansions as well as the 6 you start with for a maximum of 164 expansions. The more expansion you paid for, higher the cost of each AW level. I have 12 unplaced expansions at this time. I have 114 expansions, so each AW level is about 10% cheaper for me because of not placing the expansions.

It is a super dumb design. And by design, they are double counting AW levels with land expansions. Each AW you place uses land, so you get penalized twice, for the AW level, and for the land it sits on.

They should subtract the number of squares for an AW from the land expansion component of the equation.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
In what scenario are you dumping bulk KP into someone's wonder but don't want to use your Perk KP?
When you have the excact number of KP to take the swap tread.
Let´s say you have been off-line for a period, and have 20 KP to throw in the tread.
Now you have to use your one free KP first, and then click the remainig 19 points one of a time. That suck :mad:
I know there are workaronds, but they shouldn´t be nessesary :eek:

I can see that flogging the old mule "squadsize in tournament" is ongoing still. That´s fair, but pretty off topic :rolleyes:
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
The research part is the exponential part (and they missed the scaling of the chapters).
The AW part is a bad way to nerf the wonders (instead one could have just nerfed the wonders directly).
The expansion part is just stupid.

It makes perfect sense to me. The city level is an estimate of how much stuff (troops, goods, etc) you can produce. More AW levels means you have a stronger city that can do more stuff. And when I level up my martial monastery, my troop costs go down. If my squad size goes up by 1%, but I go from losing 10% of a stack to 9% of a stack, then I am losing fewer troops, despite the higher squad size.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
There are 3 components multiplied, tech, expansions and AW levels.

There are 1185 AW levels to the range of the squad size difference from this factor alone from no AW levels (factor =1) to 1185 AW levels (0.003*1185 +1)=4.555, so this multiplication factor can be between 1 and 4.555. But the actual hit from the AW level is dependent on the number of land expansions. The more land expansions, the bigger the hit from each AW level.

So, there are 53 chapter expansions, 64 province expansions and 41 premium expansions as well as the 6 you start with for a maximum of 164 expansions. The more expansion you paid for, higher the cost of each AW level. I have 12 unplaced expansions at this time. I have 114 expansions, so each AW level is about 10% cheaper for me because of not placing the expansions.

It is a super dumb design. And by design, they are double counting AW levels with land expansions. Each AW you place uses land, so you get penalized twice, for the AW level, and for the land it sits on.

They should subtract the number of squares for an AW from the land expansion component of the equation.

There's also boost percentage, but that's capped out for me and a whole lot of players, so we can ignore that factor as a constant.

There's nothing wrong with their double counting. A level 30 AW is more powerful than a level 1 AW, and the AW factor approximates that. If you look at the growth of AW effects, level 0->1 is a huge jump compared to 1->2, so using land costs is appropriate there.

Further, I don't consider 4.555 to be excessive -- that factor is relatively small for all AWs. For me, it's around x2, and my military buildings more than make up for that.

For mandatory tech, I did a quick count and got somewhere around 475 (I might have miscounted, but that's close enough). 1.0042^475=7.32, which is slightly too high. The costs go up faster than the extra capacity the researches give. I'd rather see this factor reduced to something like 1.003 per level, which would save nearly a factor of 2 for end game players and make it worthwhile to go to the endgame.

Oh, and the scaling for things like seeds in negotiating is wrong, too. But that's another issue.
 

Killy

Well-Known Member
It makes perfect sense to me. The city level is an estimate of how much stuff (troops, goods, etc) you can produce.
If the scaling would be done properly it would work.
More AW levels means you have a stronger city that can do more stuff. And when I level up my martial monastery, my troop costs go down. If my squad size goes up by 1%, but I go from losing 10% of a stack to 9% of a stack, then I am losing fewer troops, despite the higher squad size.
Like I said it is a nerf for the wonders but you could just nerf them directly. Than it would be more clear (the info is hidden for most of the players) and all wonders could still be usefull (some are pure negative right now for some playstyle).
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
when I level up my martial monastery, my troop costs go down. If my squad size goes up by 1%, but I go from losing 10% of a stack to 9% of a stack, then I am losing fewer troops, despite the higher squad size.
You are taking possibly the best wonder for your example. How about when adding levels to your Maze, or Heroes Forge etc ?

The theory/promise that every increase in squad size would be more than offset by the increase in production was excellent.

The fact that it's not true is the problem. There are only a handful of wonders where the benefit outweighs the drawdown, very few uses for expansions that compensate for increases, and nothing that makes up for going past the start of chapter 16.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Like I said it is a nerf for the wonders but you could just nerf them directly. Than it would be more clear (the info is hidden for most of the players) and all wonders could still be usefull (some are pure negative right now for some playstyle).

No, it's not the same as a nerf. You're just wrong. It has no effect outside of tournaments or the spire.
 

Killy

Well-Known Member
No, it's not the same as a nerf. You're just wrong. It has no effect outside of tournaments or the spire.
Rude?
I guess for players, that neither play tournament nor spire, it isn't a nerf.
Likewise for players who don't play Elvenar, those wonders (they don't have) are not nerfed either (some philosopher might disagree).
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
It makes perfect sense to me. The city level is an estimate of how much stuff (troops, goods, etc) you can produce. More AW levels means you have a stronger city that can do more stuff. And when I level up my martial monastery, my troop costs go down. If my squad size goes up by 1%, but I go from losing 10% of a stack to 9% of a stack, then I am losing fewer troops, despite the higher squad size.

Thats why the best tournament players right now are camping at a lower level, have a limited set of wonderlevels. and new tournament cities with very few expansions are under contruction.

Because it makes sense ;)

Anyway this is about the KP feature, and it looks like nothing has changed since our pre release complaints ;)
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Thats why the best tournament players right now are camping at a lower level, have a limited set of wonderlevels. and new tournament cities with very few expansions are under contruction.

Because it makes sense ;)

Anyway this is about the KP feature, and it looks like nothing has changed since our pre release complaints ;)

I think by and large we are agreeing -- the research portion is scaled too harshly, which causes people to stop progressing. And if you're not progressing, you might as well keep only essential AWs and minimal city expansions.

But about the KP feature -- the developers do want us to level AWs and the KP feature is consistent with that. That was the tie-in to the topic.
 

shp777

Member
So, to anyone who has unlocked this perk, is it like the spire and tourney perk where the points are used by the archmage/mage or is nit used by each member?
 
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