• Dear forum reader,

    To actively participate on the forum by joining discussions or starting your own threads or topics, you need a game account and to REGISTER HERE!

Discussion Fellowship Adventures

Jackluyt

Well-Known Member
UPDATE: The changes were apparently a mistake. From the German forum: "This should not have happened yet with the current FA, however we decided against fixing that now during an ongoing FA."

I just added these comments to my event note and master file:
  • As always, the design and technical execution is immaculate.
    Well done Elvenar designers!!
    ♥♥
    BUT!!
    The rebalancing of the badge requirements that appeared in the July 2022 round is a typical example of overkill by the game designers! It is true that Coins and Elvarian Guards had become too easy and we all had dozens left over at the end, and a rebalancing was needed. But now they have gone to the opposite extreme!

    After the change, most players now struggle to make one or two coin badges per day, playing normally - and that forces us to use the neighbor visit icon on the map screen to visit hundreds of people that we normally wouldn't, and even that is not enough.
    To unblock the yellow path, I just had to use THIRTY of my Coin Rain 100% instants - and that is clearly not sustainable.

    Also, recent game changes had removed the repetitive click-click-click-click-aaargh!! from the Fellowship Adventures, making it more acceptable to people whose enthusiasm was lukewarm. Now the designers have re-inserted the boredom into the game, with totally unrealistic numbers required for the coin badge. I do hope they will reconsider!

    Changes to Elvarian Guards are probably OK given that many players are overstocked with Armories and have lots of Vallorian Guard and Orc Strategist buildings in their cities.

    The Bracelet changes are harsh but perhaps we can live with them - but the COINS? No no no no!!!
    Please reconsider!!

    This rebalancing ought to be reconsidered and softened. Why oh why did they not first test the changes in Beta?
    That is what beta is there for, after all!!

    I do hope someone passes this comment and others similar to Hamburg!

    UPDATE: The changes were apparently a mistake. From the German forum: "This should not have happened yet with the current FA, however we decided against fixing that now during an ongoing FA."

    294320001_10221259589019894_4227788955448119447_n.jpg
 
Last edited:

Bor de Wolf 1965

Well-Known Member
What numbers should be a more realistic for the Sack of Coins and the Elvarian Guard Badges?

Lets try to figure out a good number for the Sack of Coins first.
  1. look at the maximum amount of badges first, so 3x a full map cleared = 361 Sack of Coins badges
  2. divide that over 20 players (not every fellowship will be full) so you need 18.05 badges in maximum 6 days that equals to 3 a day
  3. These 3 badges needs to be collected with the basic 100% gold productions of the houses, the neighbour help from the fellowship and up to 20 extra neighbour. (you can NOT calculate with bonus through extra culture and a big amount of scouted area/players)
  4. What ever a player can make due to bonus culture and shaking a lot of hands on the world map of collecting the gold mines, should be considered a bonus
Now for the Elvarian Guard badges.
  1. the total amount of badges equals to 302 for 3x a full map
  2. again divided over 20 players and 6 days should have players being able to make 2.52 badges a day
  3. The number of soldiers needed can only be calculated with the basic production of soldiers increased with the required Squad size upgrades to the start of the chapter the player is in. All the non required Squad size upgrade can not be demanded for a badge. Also demanding more as 1 armory and that at maximum level of the last chapter is asking to much.
Yes you can calculate about how many neighbours should have at the beginning of a new chapter.
Yes you can demand them for having 125% culture bonus what is impossible (I only point out the orc chapter)
Yes you can demand players to develop every technological development in the tree.
Yes you can demand players for having a minimum of 3 armory.
But with these requirements the developers are saying how we should play the game and not letting us play our own style

And even worse, they deny the fellowships that would like to go for the 1st place in the adventure, a fair chance for now everyone is the same colour grey.
 

Prueba2

Well-Known Member
I am thinking these last posts should be moved to the thread of "News from Live Servers (May contain spoilers)"
Because there may be players in Beta that would not want to be accidentally spoiled of "features" yet to come to Beta Server from testing done in Live Servers... Also, because they may change once finally implemented in Beta Server...
 

Laurelin-Beta

Well-Known Member
New values required for Bracelets:
[numbers]
Thanks for this, Jack. However, the figures alone are difficult to assess unless one is already familiar with both (a) how many Bracelets a [normal] pre-Chapter 5 City could produce before the ongoing changes, and/or (b) how small/large a decrease these figures imply. I don't know either of these numbers, myself - can anyone help on this?

For reference, here's a remark made today by an in-game friend with an expert-build perma-tiny Ch. 4 'Spire/Tourney-killing' [and/or FA Bracelet-factory] City, which at least shows how extremely inequitable, by any normal person's standards, the required Bracelet amounts are:

"... the first 4 chapters' bracelet decrease is not necessarily small. In my chapter 4 city it went from 2,800 to 1,800. That's a big reduction where it was already possible to post 4 figure totals."

In the same timeframe, I myself could have made perhaps 20 Bracelets at most, using AW-boosted MMs, with an above-average Combat-optimised but still in no way extreme (far from it) City in Ch.12 Elementals. This discrepancy is so enormous as to be absolutely beyond any concept even of 'early player assistance' - it's simply ridiculous. If someone at Inno really has entered a decimal point, or similar error, into Inno's FA 'Master Formula' - which no doubt exists - then maybe that could account for it, but I myself don't even believe that such a [comparatively small and easily seen and remedied] error is to blame. I think it's yet another case of one or more of the following :

(a) some kind of Live A/B Testing in progress, invisibly to most or all of us - perhaps FA-related, or perhaps for an entirely different purpose, with the results we're seeing in the FA being more of an accidental [or even known] side-effect of this than any intentional plan;

(b) a visible sign of Inno's 'intended average FS membership combination' - or an attempt at least to 'guide' players into such a combo;

(c) an example of a known F2P gaming 'strategy' (better described as 'psychological technique') which involves slowing down and/or otherwise frustrating players until enough of them pay up to obviate it - even though, yes, many others leave. If the net balance of profit is good enough, though, this is very much something which some F2P companies won't hesitate to do, very questionable though it is in moral terms;

(d) an example of another known F2P industry technique which involves attempting to earn revenue in a similar but even more convoluted and longer-term manner, first by frustrating those who CAN pay by overly favouring those who can't or won't do so (the latter usually being newer players) - with those who are so favoured seeing the entire thing, of course, as nothing but a bonus. This, in turn, tends to encourage the newer players not only to buy 'starter packs' - because they think the game is easy and fun - but also to advance in-game to the point where they, in their turn, see the same thing happen to them... and so on, for as long as the game gains enough new players to enable this strategy to profit; or

(e) ... something else. Any ideas, anyone? I love nothing more than to speculate, and what else are we all here for anyway, in part at least...? ;)

Furthermore : my Live Fellowship, including myself, have noticed that, contrary to the Wiki's current info, only T1 Basic Goods, in comparatively huge amounts for later-game Cities [who rarely need to produce T1, of course], are being counted towards Bracelets during the ongoing FA - rather than, as should be the case according to the Wiki, all types of Basic Goods, i.e. T1, T4, and T7 - much to my Live FS's displeasure, since we are all post-Chapter-12 players, and many are well into Sentient and/or Ascended Goods, and we don't use temporary low-Chapter Bracelet Cities.

Should we believe this to be yet another 'mistake' or 'bug' ...? I myself do not. This ALL seems to lack credibility. It's interesting that, if somehow all of these concurrent issues are unintended and/or unrelated, these 'bugs' are affecting only a few - very specific - Badge types, are much to the detriment of most mid-later-game players, and are operating to a varying extent, as well - as illustrated by the difference, recorded elsewhere here, between Main Hall Capacity % requirements for Coin Badges in different Chapters [and the inter-Chapter Bracelets discrepancy].

The above would imply that these 'bugs', assuming that their effects are deriving from one or only a few numerical errors, don't even produce a consistent curve of effect, which is - improbable, to say the least?

It is very tiring, if not aggravating, for us Live players to be kept in ignorance of what is actually going on here...!
 
Last edited:

Heffernan

Well-Known Member
I think what most players are really peeved about is that all the changes made messes with their pre-made charts and time tables (1st map, all routes done in so and so many hours) and what the fa really is to them - race to #1 spot or top 10. Only variable they would allow is the attendance of their fs players (and real die hard fs would promptly kick out the slackers after fa).

Unpleasant surprises ofc - something that we didn't even need to think about now giving us trouble, I myself was quite angry for a moment. But once my live world fs got the priorities sorted out (just open the damned chests) we got it working with 10 - 13 players present... holliday time.

So I'm asking should we really be testing everything here ?? Inno has reserved the right to make changes, and they often remind us that changes can be made between beta and live play.
Not all changes are hugely important making game unplayable or somesuch. Those changes affect everyone and just as in other game features some players/groups are affected maybe more than others.
Just now there's a track and field world championships ending, there was some complaints about too tough qualifying limits, some good athletes we're dropped out. So should they have had some kind of beta championships to test those limits ?

Some have already stated in this and other threads that we are not really a "real" beta server - I think so too. We just weed out some bugs that some changes made are causing. We also get to play new features first. But elite gaming stalwarts protecting live servers from all evil ? not so much, just another group of players, that's what we are.
 

guivou

Well-Known Member
bracelets, it is not knew that is easier for small cities , and lot of competitive FA fellowship has inclued a dedicated city for that (taking several month to level a proper city , able to produce more than 100 bracelets / day ) but coin is different , this only solution (not very efficient) is to remove all pop/culture building and replace by magic residence , it will take time ... if INNO want to maintain that level for gold bag, in event we should have possibility to win gold rain as daily prize , and more building producing high quantity of coin
 

ayvinul

Well-Known Member
Some data points for me:
- it was already hard to make bracelets on high chapter cities. You're not going to have lots of T1 manufactures anyway
- the amounts for the sacks of gold are now ludicrous. Way too high to be fun. Again: especially for high level cities.
If I play really carefully, by visiting every neighbor (33 pages long, for over 600 clicks! by now), and use spells to gain max coins from my residences, I still can get at most two sacks a day (and I have ramped up the wonders that boost neighbor help!!!).
Moreover, it's not fun at all. Visiting every neighbor is boring. I saluted the changes to the notifications that made it easy to visit people that played with you... and I did a "full map" visitation once in a while, maybe once a week, to get new friends (I'm usually around 18-20 pages of notifications). This current harvest is a chore. And we're struggling to actually finish the path.
Adjust it back so that the same amount of work yields, maybe 4 or 5 sacks.

Also, contrary to other "hard" badges like statues or blacksmiths, there's almost nothing you can do to prepare for sacks of golds. You're not going to find more room to put residences. Yeah, you could accumulate 50%-100% gold spells between adventures. The thing is, having lots of gold is useles.. If you buy XP points, then you ramp up their cost too fast for normal events. And if you spend them at the trader, you get something of very little value in return... most players past the sentient good chapters couldn't care less about their T1-T3 stock.
 

Jackluyt

Well-Known Member
Thanks for this, Jack. However, the figures alone are difficult to assess unless one is already familiar with both (a) how many Bracelets a [normal] pre-Chapter 5 City could produce before the ongoing changes, and/or (b) how small/large a decrease these figures imply. I don't know either of these numbers, myself - can anyone help on this?
The old values are in this graphic:

294047294_10221251050606439_6992035910210899635_n.jpg


New values required for Bracelets July 2022:
Chapter 1 - 78 (unchanged)
Chapter 2 - 260 (unchanged)
Chapter 3 - 520 (decrease)
Chapter 4 - 1830 (decrease)
Chapter 5 - 4 400 (decrease)
Chapter 6 - 6 800
Chapter 7 - 9 400
Chapter 8 - 13 000
Chapter 9 - 18 800
Chapter 10 - 24 000
Chapter 11 - 30 000
Chapter 12 - 40 000
Chapter 13 - 49 000
Chapter 14 - 58 000
Chapter 15 - 67 000
Chapter 16 - 72 000
Chapter 17 - 77 000
Chapter 18 - 87.000
Chapter 19 - 101 000
 

guivou

Well-Known Member
at the end , last minute modification, did not change result of FA , the best score for french server was 103.800 ( 7% less than the best score of this team ) and for ranking no change for one of the server , exactly same order for the last 2 FA (motivation is the crucial point of the result)
1659035581028.png
 

Misural

New Member
On German server it was really strange this time. The coin sacks was very hard and reduce all our stock extremly!
It was a big surprise that they made such an update one hour before starting of FA. We thing this was total oversized.
The idea behind the FA is to work together with good strategie. With the coins it only a looking how has the most coin wonder on stock.
Hope it will be reduced next time to get back a really good FA-Feeling :)

But we stay calm and get 117.600

Bildschirmfoto 2022-07-29 um 15.51.58.png
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Some data points for me:
- it was already hard to make bracelets on high chapter cities. You're not going to have lots of T1 manufactures anyway
- the amounts for the sacks of gold are now ludicrous. Way too high to be fun. Again: especially for high level cities.
If I play really carefully, by visiting every neighbor (33 pages long, for over 600 clicks! by now), and use spells to gain max coins from my residences, I still can get at most two sacks a day (and I have ramped up the wonders that boost neighbor help!!!).
Moreover, it's not fun at all. Visiting every neighbor is boring. I saluted the changes to the notifications that made it easy to visit people that played with you... and I did a "full map" visitation once in a while, maybe once a week, to get new friends (I'm usually around 18-20 pages of notifications). This current harvest is a chore. And we're struggling to actually finish the path.
Adjust it back so that the same amount of work yields, maybe 4 or 5 sacks.

Also, contrary to other "hard" badges like statues or blacksmiths, there's almost nothing you can do to prepare for sacks of golds. You're not going to find more room to put residences. Yeah, you could accumulate 50%-100% gold spells between adventures. The thing is, having lots of gold is useles.. If you buy XP points, then you ramp up their cost too fast for normal events. And if you spend them at the trader, you get something of very little value in return... most players past the sentient good chapters couldn't care less about their T1-T3 stock.
First off, the cost increases for KP are arithmetic, while gold capacity increases geometically. That means that after a while, the cost growth will be slow enough that your gold income will grow faster than the costs -- just not immediately. I buy KP with gold as often as possible, and the costs are still easily manageable for events.

That said, the increase in cost of additional KP is huge at the start of the game, which is where people get this false impression.

In any case, I liked that gold was nontrivial. It still wasn't the most limiting factor, but I like that it wasn't just ignorable. It felt exactly right where it is now, but please don't make it any steeper, since I don't want it to be more limiting than arcane residue.
 

ayvinul

Well-Known Member
First off, the cost increases for KP are arithmetic, while gold capacity increases geometically. That means that after a while, the cost growth will be slow enough that your gold income will grow faster than the costs -- just not immediately. I buy KP with gold as often as possible, and the costs are still easily manageable for events.
That's not really true, because it assumes your progression in the game would be linear. We all know that the later chapters are much longer. And what about people stuck at the end of the game, with no way to progress further ? Of course you still have wonders to keep progressing, but I think that by chapter 16-17 (which is where I'm at on the live worlds), your "easy income" grows much slower. The only part that still grows is getting more neighbors, but doing all the neighbors is tedious at best.
 

Bor de Wolf 1965

Well-Known Member
@ayvinul your gold income is also dependent on the amount of culture you have and the amount of neighbour help you get.
And the last part can become extremely bad for players depending on where they are located on the world map.
If you are located in the center or near center of the map you won't have goldmines or at least not much and the return help you get can be very high.
If you are located on the edge the amount of goldmines will increase and that means you get fewer return help.

On a life world I am located right at the edge and I know it just by looking at the goldmine pattern. On this server I have 69 players I got neighbour help from while I am done with ch19.
Here on the beta server I don't know what my location is but I get from 88 players neighbour help and I am in ch10.
This difference results in a big difference between the culture I get and therefore the bonus I have on my workplaces and house taxes I collect.

I rather would have 153 more active players on my life account compared to the 153 goldmines I have now.
If only 20% would give return help I would get 5 pages more and that would make me happy.
O, and for your information, I get Unurium from the rent I collect on my houses so a higher culture bonus give me more unurium.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
That's not really true, because it assumes your progression in the game would be linear. We all know that the later chapters are much longer. And what about people stuck at the end of the game, with no way to progress further ? Of course you still have wonders to keep progressing, but I think that by chapter 16-17 (which is where I'm at on the live worlds), your "easy income" grows much slower. The only part that still grows is getting more neighbors, but doing all the neighbors is tedious at best.
1) It doesn't assume linearity. It assumes the length of chapters grows at a slower exponential than the main hall capacity, which is true.
2) I'm at endgame, and I don't have a problem. This isn't theoretical. It really is easy income. I do it.

The only scary bit is that *at first* it does grow disturbingly quickly. It does level off at some point and any further growth is so slow to be unnoticeable. Think of it this way -- the number of KP you have to buy to increase the price by a set percent grows exponentially.

This really shouldn't be a debate -- it's math, backed by actual practice that says it works. Really.
 

Laurelin-Beta

Well-Known Member
Please Note : LONG POST with analysis - please just skip if you do not enjoy such posts. Thank you.

I have much to say about the FA Coins Badge issue - both per se and also as it relates to the whole game - but to keep things simple and relevant:

[...] the best score for french server was 103.800 ( 7% less than the best score of this team ) and for ranking no change for one of the server , exactly same order for the last 2 FA (motivation is the crucial point of the result)
It appears to me that those players and/or Fellowships who have maintained a similar performance in the most recent FA, despite the greatly increased cost of Sacks of Coins, have done so largely by using up some - or in some cases, all - of their Coin Rain stockpiles. Even some of those players and/or FSs who aim only to complete one Path per Map are saying that they have done the same - in some cases, without success.

This is entirely understandable and in some cases even near-inevitable, because none of us can, by other means, have much long-term and/or sustainable influence over our Coins income, other than perhaps by devoting a lot more City space to Residences, which is not only a non-short-term solution (unlike e.g. building a 'slum' of T1 Workshops/Manus) but also, by the mid-to-end-game point, represents a radical change in the strategies of many players.

However, performing more and/or more frequent NH can only go so far, since it has a hard limit, and I've read comments by many players, both on the Forums and on Facebook, stating that even maximum-level NH wouldn't earn them sufficient Coins Badges - with one's good/bad/average position on the Map obviously having a strong influence here, since returned visits are a non-trivial factor (as others have already stated here).

Therefore, no amount of motivation (essential to success and also admirable as it is, of course) will, in the end, be able to overcome mathematics - as of course the comment below points out:

1) It doesn't assume linearity. It assumes the length of chapters grows at a slower exponential than the main hall capacity, which is true.
2) I'm at endgame, and I don't have a problem. This isn't theoretical. It really is easy income. I do it.

The only scary bit is that *at first* it does grow disturbingly quickly. It does level off at some point and any further growth is so slow to be unnoticeable. Think of it this way -- the number of KP you have to buy to increase the price by a set percent grows exponentially.

This really shouldn't be a debate -- it's math, backed by actual practice that says it works. Really.
Yes - this is true - at the moment. But to bring up an obvious parallel : until recently, it was equally true, whether in terms of maths, logic, or mere observation without any analysis at all, that Rune Shards [in excess of Boost requirements], of which most post-early-game Cities have/had far too many, for years on end, were literally worthless - whereas [as we all know] they have now become - suddenly, and with no prior warning - both very valuable and also very influential within the game, in many ways. This was done via a very simple and 'overnight' change, which I would imagine was, practically, very easy to implement - but the idea/belief that Inno implemented such a profoundly influential change without a great deal of prior analysis of their own - to which, of course, none of us were party - is, I would say, very unlikely to be correct.

So - having seen one of the the game's least-valued [by players] Resources (and noting that perhaps only Broken Shards were/are seen as less valuable) transformed, by Inno, with no persuasive rationale, into one of its most-valued Resources - certainly in the case of early Cities which have no stockpiles - what interests me most with respect to the equally unexpected and sudden - and profoundly influential - re-valuation of Coins Badges, and therefore of Coins themselves [and I do not accept that this was an accident, even if its timing was]... what interests me, then, are the twin facts that : (a) the game is entirely based, at its most fundamental level, upon the rate at which Coins accrue and the amounts in which they accrue - which none of us can influence in any long-term, sustainable, or even very significant manner (with a permanent increase in our engagement in NH - assuming a useful Map position - being the only realistic apparent method); together with (b) the fact that Inno can, at their option, alter the Coins accrual rate, and/or the amounts thereby acquired, at will - just as they altered the value of Rune Shards, at will.

I would further mention here that I hear reports from some players who are operating 'new Research Tree' early-game Cities that Coins (and much else - but Coins are the topic here) are in very short supply, not least because the cycling Quests have been removed and/or altered to provide non-Coins/Supplies rewards. This, again, means that such Cities must primarily rely upon NH as a sustainable long-term source of Coins.

I personally am not persuaded that the two current situations [of which most of us are aware] in which Coins are not only valuable but even scarce - namely for early-game Cities [always] and for larger, later Cities which compete strongly in the FA - are wholly independent of each other.

I also find it of note that Coins - for obvious reasons - are the one Resource which most players (who aren't heavy Spire Caterers) agree is always plentiful - while also being the one [primary] Resource in the game - again, Coins are actually its foundation - over which we have little, if any, control, and which only Inno can significantly [i.e. mathematically] influence - when and/or if they so choose.

For this reason, most of us have actively avoided ever winning or earning Coin Rains, and see them as little more than an occupational hazard of playing Events and progressing through the Spire - until the point we have now reached, of course. How many of us will still see those 100% Coin Rains which are offered as Event Grand Prizes as more or less a joke reward, to avoid where possible or, if won, simply to ignore in Inventory?

And for once, I'll leave to others further thought upon, and/or any conclusions to be drawn from, the possible ramifications of any or all of this... :)
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Please Note : LONG POST with analysis - please just skip if you do not enjoy such posts. Thank you.

I have much to say about the FA Coins Badge issue - both per se and also as it relates to the whole game - but to keep things simple and relevant:


It appears to me that those players and/or Fellowships who have maintained a similar performance in the most recent FA, despite the greatly increased cost of Sacks of Coins, have done so largely by using up some - or in some cases, all - of their Coin Rain stockpiles. Even some of those players and/or FSs who aim only to complete one Path per Map are saying that they have done the same - in some cases, without success.

This is entirely understandable and in some cases even near-inevitable, because none of us can, by other means, have much long-term and/or sustainable influence over our Coins income, other than perhaps by devoting a lot more City space to Residences, which is not only a non-short-term solution (unlike e.g. building a 'slum' of T1 Workshops/Manus) but also, by the mid-to-end-game point, represents a radical change in the strategies of many players.

However, performing more and/or more frequent NH can only go so far, since it has a hard limit, and I've read comments by many players, both on the Forums and on Facebook, stating that even maximum-level NH wouldn't earn them sufficient Coins Badges - with one's good/bad/average position on the Map obviously having a strong influence here, since returned visits are a non-trivial factor (as others have already stated here).

Therefore, no amount of motivation (essential to success and also admirable as it is, of course) will, in the end, be able to overcome mathematics - as of course the comment below points out:


Yes - this is true - at the moment. But to bring up an obvious parallel : until recently, it was equally true, whether in terms of maths, logic, or mere observation without any analysis at all, that Rune Shards [in excess of Boost requirements], of which most post-early-game Cities have/had far too many, for years on end, were literally worthless - whereas [as we all know] they have now become - suddenly, and with no prior warning - both very valuable and also very influential within the game, in many ways. This was done via a very simple and 'overnight' change, which I would imagine was, practically, very easy to implement - but the idea/belief that Inno implemented such a profoundly influential change without a great deal of prior analysis of their own - to which, of course, none of us were party - is, I would say, very unlikely to be correct.

So - having seen one of the the game's least-valued [by players] Resources (and noting that perhaps only Broken Shards were/are seen as less valuable) transformed, by Inno, with no persuasive rationale, into one of its most-valued Resources - certainly in the case of early Cities which have no stockpiles - what interests me most with respect to the equally unexpected and sudden - and profoundly influential - re-valuation of Coins Badges, and therefore of Coins themselves [and I do not accept that this was an accident, even if its timing was]... what interests me, then, are the twin facts that : (a) the game is entirely based, at its most fundamental level, upon the rate at which Coins accrue and the amounts in which they accrue - which none of us can influence in any long-term, sustainable, or even very significant manner (with a permanent increase in our engagement in NH - assuming a useful Map position - being the only realistic apparent method); together with (b) the fact that Inno can, at their option, alter the Coins accrual rate, and/or the amounts thereby acquired, at will - just as they altered the value of Rune Shards, at will.

I would further mention here that I hear reports from some players who are operating 'new Research Tree' early-game Cities that Coins (and much else - but Coins are the topic here) are in very short supply, not least because the cycling Quests have been removed and/or altered to provide non-Coins/Supplies rewards. This, again, means that such Cities must primarily rely upon NH as a sustainable long-term source of Coins.

I personally am not persuaded that the two current situations [of which most of us are aware] in which Coins are not only valuable but even scarce - namely for early-game Cities [always] and for larger, later Cities which compete strongly in the FA - are wholly independent of each other.

I also find it of note that Coins - for obvious reasons - are the one Resource which most players (who aren't heavy Spire Caterers) agree is always plentiful - while also being the one [primary] Resource in the game - again, Coins are actually its foundation - over which we have little, if any, control, and which only Inno can significantly [i.e. mathematically] influence - when and/or if they so choose.

For this reason, most of us have actively avoided ever winning or earning Coin Rains, and see them as little more than an occupational hazard of playing Events and progressing through the Spire - until the point we have now reached, of course. How many of us will still see those 100% Coin Rains which are offered as Event Grand Prizes as more or less a joke reward, to avoid where possible or, if won, simply to ignore in Inventory?

And for once, I'll leave to others further thought upon, and/or any conclusions to be drawn from, the possible ramifications of any or all of this... :)
I don't even know where to begin debunking all of this. I'll skip the minor nitpicks and go to the heart.

Coins are capped. Thus, the main hall capacity sets the scale for coins. Indeed, things like neighborly help are based on the coin storage capacity. If capacity goes up, the scale for coins goes up. That means, every time you upgrade the main hall, while the nominal cost in coins stays the same, the real, scale-adjusted cost goes down. And if the main hall capacity increases exponentially, then static prices effectively decrease exponentially. So, while gold is precious in early chapters, it scales to become plentiful in later chapters, especially for costs, such as buying KP, which increases additively. This is consistent with the pattern of the game, where old resources become more plentiful and newer, more scarce resources are introduced.

In other words, by the later chapters, the price of KP becomes very cheap, and the cost increases become negligible -- effectively flat, unless you buy exponentially more and more KP.

I don't even know how I'd get rid of gold, if I didn't buy KP with it.

TL;DR The cap on gold sets the scale for gold, and unless that stops increasing, we're good. And even if it does stop, there's a lot of KP to buy before it becomes worrisome.
 

Laurelin-Beta

Well-Known Member
I don't even know where to begin debunking all of this.
Try the first year-ish of posts on this Forum - very, very interesting reading, although perhaps not as supportive of 'debunking' as may be assumed.

Of course, most of those old threads are hard to find these days, especially the long and often lively analyses done by - and the subsequent debates between - many now long-gone but formerly very active and vocal Beta players, because almost all of the early commentators have become un-searchable IDs re-named to 'DeletedUserXXX', but I have kept a lot of direct URLs. I'm boring like that.

In fact, upon joining the game just over four years ago now, I read through this entire Forum, from its inception... and I've observed that there were then, and still are now, similar and repeating patterns to be found in the game's ongoing development, alterations, and progression.

Only if you feel like it, of course - and have as much empty time as me! The greatest joy of [informed] speculation is the counter-speculation... ;)

TL;DR The cap on gold sets the scale for gold, and unless that stops increasing, we're good. And even if it does stop, there's a lot of KP to buy before it becomes worrisome.
I know. I am in no way challenging your maths - I am agreeing with it. I am pointing out that ANY maths we may engage in - and I can't go much beyond the basics, so I am always grateful to you, and the few remaining others like you, who do - may be rendered null and void, or at least much altered, if/when Inno might perhaps decide to alter the basis on which the calculations are made. Rather like Rune Shards - as I pointed out.

Or of course - the FA Coin Badges. Once trivial. Suddenly the one show-stopper above all. It takes only a small fundamental numerical change.

Of course, we will ALL acquire much more certainty - and be able to make much more valid comparisons, whether mathematical or speculative - once the 'minor' early-game changes are finalised and actually available to scrutinise, without the present [insurmountable] complications of:

(a) the fact that only some of the early-game Cities are starting out with the 'new' Research Tree, Chapter Quests, et al, and
(b) the fact that we have very few reports on either start-up scenario, and no matter how diligent the researchers, we each have differing views.

And thanks for the reply. Again, I was in no way attempting to prove you wrong - only to base my own musings upon better maths than my own! :)

[Edited for *way* too many typos!]
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Try the first year-ish of posts on this Forum - very, very interesting reading, although perhaps not as supportive of 'debunking' as may be assumed.

Of course, most of those old threads are hard to find these days, especially the long and often lively analyses done by - and the subsequent debates between - many now long-gone but formerly very active and vocal Beta players, because almost all of the early commentators have become un-searchable IDs re-named to 'DeletedUserXXX', but I have kept a lot of direct URLs. I'm boring like that.

In fact, upon joining the game just over four years ago now, I read through this entire Forum, from its inception... and I've observed that there were then, and still are now, similar and repeating patterns to be found in the game's ongoing development, alterations, and progression.

Only if you feel like it, of course - and have as much empty time as me! The greatest joy of [informed] speculation is the counter-speculation... ;)


I know. I am in no way challenging your maths - I am agreeing with it. I am pointing out that ANY maths we may engage in - and I can't go much beyond the basics, so I am always grateful to you, and the few remaining others like you, who do - may be rendered null and void, or at least much altered, if/when Inno might perhaps decide to alter the basis on which the calculations are made. Rather like Rune Shards - as I pointed out.

Or of course - the FA Coin Badges. Once trivial. Suddenly the one show-stopper above all. It takes only a small fundamental numerical change.

Of course, we will ALL acquire much more certainty - and be able to make much more valid comparisons, whether mathematical or speculative - once the 'minor' early-game changes are finalised and actually available to scrutinise, without the present [insurmountable] complications of:

(a) the fact that only some of the early-game Cities are starting out with the 'new' Research Tree, Chapter Quests, et al, and
(b) the fact that we have very few reports on either start-up scenario, and no matter how diligent the researchers, we each have differing views.

And thanks for the reply. Again, I was in no way attempting to prove you wrong - only to base my own musings upon better maths than my own! :)

[Edited for *way* too many typos!]

So, I do have an ace up my sleeve -- I have worked in the game industry (not for Inno, just in the industry). I can recognize various game design philosophies, and I have been with this game since 2016, so I have a sense for how Inno does things.

I hoarded rune shards because the math showed that Inno expected them to be more valuable, and I figured they would do something to bring the actual value in line with their expectations. Gold looks like it was designed to be a limiting factor in the early game, but less so later on. I'm not shocked if gold is more valued in the new early game. That's not inconsistent with I see as their intentions.

But the thing about gold is that nothing can cost more than your main hall capacity. To be sure, main hall upgrades push that, but the cap means there's a limit. And if they push the cap hugely, that causes inflation, since things like neighborly help are a fraction of your cap. So, while they can adjust numbers, there are limits to what they can reasonably do without changing the framework completely.

They certainly could do something as severe as cut gold income by 50%. But with their cap structure, they couldn't cut gold income by 99% without breaking their own game. However, that would not make KP unaffordable to buy with gold for events. And if KP were harder to afford for events, they might tune the events to need less. Even if they don't (it's not impossible for them to forget to tune the event requirements) -- I can always buy KP with goods. Mind you, I would not be casually buying as many KP/day as I am now, but I could still afford events.

By not buying KP now, there is a lot of missed opportunity cost. Indeed, by now KP has become much less valuable to me. I hoarded shards before the change, and now I'm swimming in KP instants, and many other people at endgame can do the same thing (most already have, probably). So, I'd like to make a case for buying KP while they are still useful, rather than hoarding the potential just in case it becomes hard to do for events.
 
Top