SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
He said 2 wonders, so the other one will work fine
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DeletedUser
Guest
@SoggyShorts It was super helpful with preparing for my ancient wonders. Throughout my playtime in this game, I never really understood why people would use them, I do now. Since I was helped like this, it would be me helping little chapters like mine. Perhaps even help some of those chapter 5 players in later chapters, will have to see. Tournaments can be a big drain on your inventory, and this is the first time I haven’t participated in them. I could be overflowing with resources.
I agree about building and relying on the Golden Abyss for population, it’s a better gold producer early on and me needs some gold! I tend to have less houses, and the need for my gold goes up.
I agree about building and relying on the Golden Abyss for population, it’s a better gold producer early on and me needs some gold! I tend to have less houses, and the need for my gold goes up.
DeletedUser1953
Guest
No so much lower level, before construct (often <=4 level), more factory space but less house/culture space, and finally you produce more ressource for the same place.
With construct, very strange that the factory gems 21 is 11% more efficient than 27 in point of view ressources (for the score the 27 wins !).
To escape cross trading and you do a lot of tournament, you need to produce the same amount of T1/T2/T3 (with SS > 566 (526?) +/- orcs era with no optional SS). To compensate the difference/deviation => use factory spells. And i never create a cross trade ! Another advantage to have lower level factories, i can adjust the level of the factories !
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Moonlady70
Active Member
The problem is, that INNO made the fault to calculate only with coins and supplies.
T1 = 20 coins/piece
T2 = 80 coins/piece
T3 = 320 coins/piece
There you go with the ratio of 16:4:1.
But they forgot, without a Residence and the Population, you can't build "ONE" level 1 Manufactories, and therefore more Place is required, more costs, and ......... (neverending story).
so therfore i checked that with a real game account while i was at the "FAIRIES"
Thats for Elves with a Relics Bonus of 700%. The only thing a forgot to take into this calculation, is the Trader.
So a ratio of 1:1:1 should fix the problem.
Lady of the Moon
PS: Sry that im german and have not the time to translate all into english, but the pictures should speak for themselves.
T1 = 20 coins/piece
T2 = 80 coins/piece
T3 = 320 coins/piece
There you go with the ratio of 16:4:1.
But they forgot, without a Residence and the Population, you can't build "ONE" level 1 Manufactories, and therefore more Place is required, more costs, and ......... (neverending story).
so therfore i checked that with a real game account while i was at the "FAIRIES"
Thats for Elves with a Relics Bonus of 700%. The only thing a forgot to take into this calculation, is the Trader.
So a ratio of 1:1:1 should fix the problem.
Lady of the Moon
PS: Sry that im german and have not the time to translate all into english, but the pictures should speak for themselves.
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
Firstly, I believe whatever value the game sets the goods at is a truly fair trade. The purpose of (I'm a phonetic speller, so of comes out even though I know it's: of; just in case I miss an edit.) this thread is to hear the other side in a clear and concise voice..
I live in a capitalistic society, so I have to ask; Do you really want someone to devalue your currency? That's what the tyrant has done, He's convinced you that it's fair to cheat your neighbor. The game has set up a stable economy The value of your currency is fixed. Just like there's 10 pennies in every dime and 10 dimes in every dollar, there's 4 planks in every crystal and 4 crystal in every Elixir. Now, along comes the tyrant and he lies and shows you how to be tyrants too. Probably, to make him/her-self feel justified in cheating his/her neighbor. So, do you really thint there should only be 4 pennies in your dimes, or 5 dimes in your dollar?
Wake up players! . How to make safe, efficient and equitable trades:
.
Please try to remember this is closed unsupported socialism (only printed money is). Government (the PTBs that we whine to daily) makes the rules that govern our cities; we have no choice. We're all given the same things to work with, humans and elves. . They may have different names, but they do the same things for the same price. Why are followers of this "Fair Trades" doing this? To line their own pockets at the expense of their players. Sound like anyone in Real World you know?
Do you hang with their lot? I got a book on wisdom for you then...Proverbs
When you balance something you need to find something they all have in common to compare them to. (dont compare apples to bananas but apples to apples)
To create goods you need:
- Coins
- Supplies
- Population
- Culture
- Space
But both coins and supplies can't substitude population, culture or space. because you cant create any of them with either or combined.
But there actually is something all 5 points have in common and that is space, without the space none of the other 4 points can be created/exist.
But with space the other 4 points can be created.
Culture, Population, Supplies and Coins can be converted into space, the space they need to be produced.
When you then recalculate the costs it turns out that "a fair trade" ain't 16:4:1 but somewhere in the vicinity of 4:2:1.
The original and first calculations (at least on the english forums) was made by me in early 2017 to make a proof of concept to show why it was wrong.
You are free to read the calculation on the link below and make calculations of your own.
https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/cross-tier-trades.3744/#post-27917
This is why so many are against the 2 star "fair" system since it tells a player a trade is fair while it ain't. when you break down all production costs to space it turns out the current 16:4:1 system is higly unfair. but the 2 star system works as a way of conditioning people thinking that it actually fair because "they say so" instead of maken there own assesments.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
I first realized that trading cross-tier was a total rip after about a week of play.
One of my older ones on US live goes back to 2016
and that's not even my first.https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/production-and-trade-16-1.3675/
August 2016
This trade thing has been a problem for a while
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MiniB
Member
6. Time
I'll try to explain my opinion, sorry my english. When I had played long enough (in live) came a day, when five first thing on that list didn't matter so much. Only thing that matters is time. I have so much coins, supplies etc that I don't have to think them. I have balanced my manufactories so they produce goods nearly same number at the same time. That is only thing I think. It takes x hours to get x quantity of boosted goods. If I get 1000 marbles, silk and gems at the same time I'll trade my marbles only to planks and steel because I have silk and gems to trade others. I don't want to trade 16000 marbles to 1000 elixir because I'll get the same with 1000 gems, it costs too much of my time. If I would like to trade marbles to elixir, I should have much more marble manufactories to get 16000 marbles at the same time than 1000 gems and I don't want to do that.
Moonlady70
Active Member
Points should be
1.) Coins
2.) Supplies
3.) Population
4.) Culture
5.) Streets
6.) Trader
7.) Used Place
8.) Time (most important)
There are so many other facts like Relict Boost, Chapter, Ancient Wonder Boost too, which should be taken into a calculation.
In the higher levels of the manufacturies (level 20), the amount of the production of "ONE" manufactory of T1 to T3 goods are close the same (725 / 835 / 1004) when you look at the Wiki and the mentioned Base production of 1 day. And still its only based on Coins and Supplies, because INNO ignores mostly 95% of things used to run a manufactory.
So when we player do same as INNO and ignore Coins/Supplies and concentrate only on the factor TIME, the rates should be
T2 : T1 ( 1,2 : 1 )
T3 : T1 ( 1,4 : 1 )
T3 : T2 ( 1,2 : 1 )
The proposed exchange rates of 1 : 4 and 1 : 16 are only an illusion, same with the 2 stars showing it is a fair trade.
With ignoring all facts used to run a manufactory, and use only Coins and Supplies for any calculation, there will never be a FAIR Trade and therefore the existing Trade Systems needs an urgent Re-Balancing (4 years to late).
The Trade from T3 to lower goods of T2 or T1 is the only way to get that needed goods very very very fast, when there is someone blinded by the mostly 3 star offers and take them, thinking that was a great deal and is close to get into the catogery "Unknown Pushing".
1.) Coins
2.) Supplies
3.) Population
4.) Culture
5.) Streets
6.) Trader
7.) Used Place
8.) Time (most important)
There are so many other facts like Relict Boost, Chapter, Ancient Wonder Boost too, which should be taken into a calculation.
In the higher levels of the manufacturies (level 20), the amount of the production of "ONE" manufactory of T1 to T3 goods are close the same (725 / 835 / 1004) when you look at the Wiki and the mentioned Base production of 1 day. And still its only based on Coins and Supplies, because INNO ignores mostly 95% of things used to run a manufactory.
So when we player do same as INNO and ignore Coins/Supplies and concentrate only on the factor TIME, the rates should be
T2 : T1 ( 1,2 : 1 )
T3 : T1 ( 1,4 : 1 )
T3 : T2 ( 1,2 : 1 )
The proposed exchange rates of 1 : 4 and 1 : 16 are only an illusion, same with the 2 stars showing it is a fair trade.
With ignoring all facts used to run a manufactory, and use only Coins and Supplies for any calculation, there will never be a FAIR Trade and therefore the existing Trade Systems needs an urgent Re-Balancing (4 years to late).
The Trade from T3 to lower goods of T2 or T1 is the only way to get that needed goods very very very fast, when there is someone blinded by the mostly 3 star offers and take them, thinking that was a great deal and is close to get into the catogery "Unknown Pushing".
Karvest
Well-Known Member
Time means nothing without taking space into account, same as space without taking time into account.
Space in @CrazyWizard and @SoggyShorts posts is normalized by time needed to produce same amount of all tiers goods.
Space in @CrazyWizard and @SoggyShorts posts is normalized by time needed to produce same amount of all tiers goods.
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
Time is indeed a factor, but not for balancing purposes
As @Karvest mentioned time is normalised. within the same timeframe all chains produce either the same amount of goods or use the same amount of space.
Time is important when you want to know how many goods you could aquire in a certain amount of time. but all factories run at the exact same "relative time"**. there is no time difference between factories.
**Einsteins theory of relativity is not a factor before a wiseguy points out time is relative to....
The exchange rates you came up with also make no sense to me, I cannot derive how you came to your conclusion.
DeletedUser
Guest
I love them. I'm now trading planks for gems for chapter 4.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
Yeah as @Karvest and @CrazyWizard pointed towards
Time = Space You don't need to change both when you compare stuff.
For example
You make 100 gems in 100 squares of space in 1 day, that is 1 gem per square per day
Now try changing TIME or SPACE by 50%
You make 100 gems in 100 squares of space in 0.5(half) day, that is 2 gem per square per day
or
You make 100 gems in 50 (half) squares of space in 1 day, that is 2 gem per square per day
See? 50% space or 50% time, it doesn't matter which one you play with, the result is the same.
Time = Space You don't need to change both when you compare stuff.
For example
You make 100 gems in 100 squares of space in 1 day, that is 1 gem per square per day
Now try changing TIME or SPACE by 50%
You make 100 gems in 100 squares of space in 0.5(half) day, that is 2 gem per square per day
or
You make 100 gems in 50 (half) squares of space in 1 day, that is 2 gem per square per day
See? 50% space or 50% time, it doesn't matter which one you play with, the result is the same.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
1. No one is bothered by a few trades under 1,000 planks.
2. Everyone wants your planks for their T3, that's the point, it's only a good deal one way. If you want to be bad at math and offer something that takes far longer to make for something really easy to make, that's up to you.
3. it's the pages and pages of crap that everyone finds annoying.
DeletedUser
Guest
I love pages and pages of trades. And love cross trades.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
You must be fun at parties, and I'm sure you get invited to loads of them
I honestly picture you in real life where someone discreetly whispers to you "Hey man, you're a little ripe, you might want to wash up, or put on some deodorant, people don't enjoy the smell"
And your response is to never shower again and to shove your armpit in everyone's face.
DeletedUser
Guest
You can always keep your filter on to view only your fs trades.
But like you said, in your chapter you have less need for tier 1, you could easily do cross trades with extra planks. Since I know my needs for chapter 4 (heavy in tier 3 goods) I can start now cross trading my planks for them. Chapter 3 was heavy in tier 2 goods.
Take the goods you aren’t using and cross trade for the ones you need the most of. I haven’t figured out Chapter 5 yet, but maybe it goes back to being heavy in tier 1 again. Chapter 6 tier 2 and so forth. Knowing your research in advance, that’s when I feel cross trades can be really valuable.
The party is always at my place because I have the most beautiful lodgings. Even have fireworks!
But like you said, in your chapter you have less need for tier 1, you could easily do cross trades with extra planks. Since I know my needs for chapter 4 (heavy in tier 3 goods) I can start now cross trading my planks for them. Chapter 3 was heavy in tier 2 goods.
Take the goods you aren’t using and cross trade for the ones you need the most of. I haven’t figured out Chapter 5 yet, but maybe it goes back to being heavy in tier 1 again. Chapter 6 tier 2 and so forth. Knowing your research in advance, that’s when I feel cross trades can be really valuable.
The party is always at my place because I have the most beautiful lodgings. Even have fireworks!
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
I did not say that.
And never help any players outside my FS? That's sad. What about those without a FS, or those in one just starting out? Or if a FS loses their (marble) producers?
There are loads of reasons why FS only trading is not a perfect solution.
DeletedUser1657
Guest
I hadn't paid attention to goods heavy chapters in 1-5, it really was never an issue if you build a minimum amount of goods space. From chapter 6 on (guest races) typically you need more of the tier that gets a tech in that chapter. So T1 for dwarves s they increase factories above lvl 15 and their guest race goods use T1 goods, fairies is T3, orcs T3, etc.
For those demanding a change the trading ratios have you identified the other aspects of the game that use the coins/supplies ratio for balance and reworked those areas on your new calculations? Rarely is one aspect of the game isolated, changing one aspect requires changing others.
Honestly I think the dev time would be far easier and simpler put into improving the trader with some simple features then reworking several game aspects.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
You tend to bring this up a lot, but I don't think you've listed any of these "other aspects" that are reliant on the coins and goods ratio. Nothing would be disturbed by changing the recommended trading ratio anyways, just newbie player sentiment may change.
I do agree that an interface change would help to solve most of it though.
The only problem not solved is small/new/bad at math players will still be confused and frustrated when none of their crap trades are being taken, and that can only be fixed by the devs redoing or removing the suggested ratios.
DeletedUser
Guest
@Mykan for chapter 4 I know I have to build two wonders that take tier 3 goods plus the research. This makes Chapter 4 heavy in tier 3 goods. My research for chapter 4 is actually higher for tier 1 goods but add in the wonders and chapter 4 is heavier in tier 3 goods total.
For chapter 5 I have to upgrade the tome of secrets and golden abyss which takes tier 1 to upgrade. I’m guessing that Chapter 5 because of wonders will end up being Tier 1 heavy.
Since I know this, I can pre-plan and start cross trading for gems with my planks because currently I have no use for them. (I have enough for research) Will save some for my trek to chapter 4 just in case I have to cater.
I know how long it will take to gain the kps naturally to do the research for chapter 4. I know currently how long my non boosted gems factory will take to make the amount I need and if that time is greater than what it is to gain kps for researching, I trade to bring that time down to equal the kp gains. It isn’t about gold - it’s about time.
Example my gems currently has me at 100 days to have enough but my research will only take 42 days to gain the kps naturally. I can cross trade my planks to lower that 100 days to 42 days.
For chapter 5 I have to upgrade the tome of secrets and golden abyss which takes tier 1 to upgrade. I’m guessing that Chapter 5 because of wonders will end up being Tier 1 heavy.
Since I know this, I can pre-plan and start cross trading for gems with my planks because currently I have no use for them. (I have enough for research) Will save some for my trek to chapter 4 just in case I have to cater.
I know how long it will take to gain the kps naturally to do the research for chapter 4. I know currently how long my non boosted gems factory will take to make the amount I need and if that time is greater than what it is to gain kps for researching, I trade to bring that time down to equal the kp gains. It isn’t about gold - it’s about time.
Example my gems currently has me at 100 days to have enough but my research will only take 42 days to gain the kps naturally. I can cross trade my planks to lower that 100 days to 42 days.
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