Fellowships Experience Points by investing KP in AW of FS Members

[Prueba2]

Hi,

- Add a new way of gaining Experience points, by investing KP in other FS members Ancient Wonders.
Probably something among 1-5 XP per KP should be okay (2?-3?).

- It rewards interaction inside the Fellowship, and it is something that it is already been done in some FS (although probably not yet in most...)
It synergizes well with "Knowledge Points sharing" perk, in the same way "Advance Help" perk synergizes with Experience Points gained from Neighbourly Help.

- It would seem that it would discourage AW investment systems with players outside the FS.

Thanks and best regards

EDIT: Included some numbers as reference from below post:

Quick number comparison:

Experience points of Neighbourly Help (weekly):

• 7 days * 25 members * 24 FS colleagues * 10 experience points each = 42000 points (x2 if giving help back = 84000)

Experience points of Tournament (weekly):

• 10 chests * 4k experience points each = 40000 points

Experience points of Spire (weekly):

• 8 cristals * 4k experience points each = 32000 points

Suggested Experience for KP investing in AW

• Even 25 members * 210 KP weekly (30KP daily) * 3 experience points = 10500 points ( 37.5% of Neighbourly help!!! (wihout helping back))
• Worst case 25 members * 800 KP weekly (more 100KP daily!!!) * 3 experience points = 60000 (still less than 75% of full FS helping back...)

Suggested options for Poll:

• FOR - I like the idea of gaining experience through KP investing in FS colleagues AW (although maybe the Devs need to tweak the exact values).
• FOR - I think there are not enough ways of gaining experience or the quantity is not enough.
• AGAINST - I think there are already enough (or too much) ways of gaining experience.
• AGAINST - I think this suggestion would be bad for net0 system or Wonder Society system.
• ABSTAIN - I do not really mind.

 

[Bor de Wolf 1965]

Your idea is nice but the amount needs some reduction.

On a life server I am with a fellowship that does the wonder trains so we would get a huge amount of extra xp for what we are doing any ways.
But there also a lot of people that use the net zero system were you put in as much KP in your own wonder minus the return boxes you get out of is. I don't think those people will be happy with this suggestion.

in the first case you can count on about 25x 135kp a week minimum = 3375kp donated (the FS does 10 boxes in the tournament every week)
And with players that hit the end wall the amount will go up even more.
in the second case it will be a little lower but still the FS that uses that system will put out a huge amount of extra xp to and most of them have also chapter 18/19 players as well, so again they get a lot of KP every week .

And not for the special cases, some players will hit the tournament for 10k+ points every week and they will get up to 800+ kp they can put in to any wonder they like.
and also with the AWKP bonus you can get, a FS that maxes out that perk get 10kp per member every day so 25*10*7=1750 that your suggestion is giving for free to the players and they can use it again to gain extra XP.

 

[Karvest]

Another "anti-net0" suggestion...
TBH, there is no need for additional exp source. We already got more than half of the perks we want, and will get all of them in ~half a year. After that there would be 2 years of getting other perk levels "just to have them all". For less active FS that would take x2 times longer, but even that time is more than reasonable (compare it with time of required for other aspects of elvenar).

 

[Prueba2]

in the first case you can count on about 25x 135kp a week minimum = 3375kp donated (the FS does 10 boxes in the tournament every week)
And with players that hit the end wall the amount will go up even more.
in the second case it will be a little lower but still the FS that uses that system will put out a huge amount of extra xp to and most of them have also chapter 18/19 players as well, so again they get a lot of KP every week .

And not for the special cases, some players will hit the tournament for 10k+ points every week and they will get up to 800+ kp they can put in to any wonder they like.
and also with the AWKP bonus you can get, a FS that maxes out that perk get 10kp per member every day so 25*10*7=1750 that your suggestion is giving for free to the players and they can use it again to gain extra XP.

Quick number comparison:

Experience points of Neighbourly Help (weekly):

• 7 days * 25 members * 24 FS colleagues * 10 experience points each = 42000 points (x2 if giving help back = 84000)

Suggested Experience for KP investing in AW

• Even 25 members * 210 KP weekly (30KP daily) * 3 experience points = 10500 points ( 37.5% of Neighbourly help!!! (wihout helping back))
• Worst case 25 members * 800 KP weekly (more 100KP daily!!!) * 3 experience points = 60000 (still less than 75% of full FS helping back...)

Still, it is just a suggestion for the Community to comment and for the Devs to analyze/evaluate (+testing) ,that is aligned with Fellowship Progresion concept "reward FS members interaction".

In any case, as stated in other post, I do not understand why there is any problem with this suggestion and the Net0 system, in mind they are two completely not-related issues...

 

[Killy]

In any case, as stated in other post, I do not understand why there is any problem with this suggestion and the Net0 system, in mind they are two completely not-related issues...

In Net0 players put most of their kps in their own wonder but your idea rewards a totally different distribution. So either they keep Net0 with fomo or they change to an undesired system. Imo the perks are kinda whatever anyways and I wouldn't mind it and keep Net0.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The current system has a strictly controlled amount of XP that a fellowship can earn in one week. I seriously doubt Inno would any new way to gain XP that was not also limited on how much can be gained in a week. This is also why there is a 24-hour waiting period before new fellowship members can visit or be visited, to prevent the cheating of rotating players in and out just to gain extra visit XP.

 

[Prueba2]

In NetZero players buy your AW chests for face value and you finish the wonder by filling it yourself.
If donating KP to someone else's wonder gave XP then NetZero would no longer be a (near) perfect system since you would get almost no XP compared to other systems because 80% of KP is self-donated.

I'm talking about the suggestion to award XP for donating KP.
That would make net0 bad.

Sorry @SoggyShorts , I do understand your arguments, but I do not follow to the point of the suggestion being "bad" for Net0, as that is not the point of the suggestion. Do you think the suggestion would be bad for increasing FS interaction?

Point by point:

1. I would like to differenciate between the suggestion and it being "bad" or "good" for some organization system used by players
2. Until very recently I did not know net0. I have not been in any FS that used it, but I agree is another alternative to Wonder Society, KP exchange posts or self-leveling.
3. As far as I have understood, the whole idea of Fellowship Progresion is to reward interaction among FS members by providing experience that can be used in perks, which grants some additional benefit.
4. The current actions that provide experience are Neighbourly Help / Tournament / Spire.
5. Other posible FS interactions available are KP investment and FS adventures.
6. The current perks are Increase time for helping back / Tournament archive / Spire archive / KP sharing
7. I would to remark that 3 of 4 perks allows to increase the experience gained: increasing frame for helping back (increase possibility of helping back, gaining doble experience) / Tournament archive (either grants an additional chest +4k experince or allows to maintain current chest despite unfavourable circunstances not-losing 4k experience)/ Spire archive (either grants an additional crystal +4k experince or allows to maintain current crystal despite unfavourable circunstances not-losing 4k experience)
8. Currently neither KP investing nor KP sharing does provide any improvement in gaining experience.
9. I am aware that there probably many ways to improve this suggestion and that is what I would like to work on.
10. Regarding it being "good" or "bad" for some systems, if community thinks a daily limit per member should be applied in order to avoid abuse, just state it. Some measures have already been taken by Devs to avoid other abuses (Tournament / Spire / Neighbourly Help)
11. If fact, correct me if I am wrong this suggestion is probably worse for Wonder Society (that do not require all participants to be in the same FS) than it is for net0, by encouraging greater FS member interaction.

If you have read until here, thank you very much.
Best regards,

 

[Karvest]

The key is that in all other common KP sharing systems whole KP is invested to other participants, while in net0 ~80% (or even more for lvl 31+ AWs) is invested into AWs by owners themselves, so net0 users would receive x5 less XP points than users of other systems having same pace of AW leveling up.

net0 also does not require all participants to be in the same FS

 

[SoggyShorts]

I would like to differentiate between the suggestion and it being "bad" or "good" for some organization system used by players

You cannot separate a suggestion from its consequences.
As Karvest explained, in Net0 most KP is self levelling with only the AW chests being purchased by FS members. This means that non-net0 FS would get 5x as many XP as a net0 FS gets thereby greatly reducing the appeal of Net0 (which is arguably the easiest and most equitable exchange system and certainly a favorite for hundreds of players)

Regarding it being "good" or "bad" for some systems, if community thinks a daily limit per member should be applied in order to avoid abuse, just state it.

Sure: limit the XP earned from donating KP to the free perk KP that you get. (so 1-10 KP per day per FS member)

As a side note: Most FS don't discriminate much (if at all) based on player's scores, since very small, medium, and growing cities can all do very well in tournaments and the spire- however, if how many KP each player spends on wonders had a direct overall impact on the FS as a whole, then smaller, newer players would become much less desirable.
End-game, and parked players would be much more desirable since the gain (and spend) vastly more KP per day of which 100% goes into wonders (rather than research)
So in summary, the suggestion has another unfortunate consequence in that it discourages progress and encourages discriminating against smaller, newer players.

 

[Prueba2]

Ok, I respect both your positions, @Karvest and @SoggyShorts , but I do not agree with them, sorry.
How many FS / players do use Net0? A gross % estimation?

 

[Bor de Wolf 1965]

Not sure but lets take some numbers to start with.
50% does the wonder train.
5% does the net0 system
and other FS does something in between and they are in the end players that deliver some free AWKP because players capture the boxes for just 1 or 2 KP.

In the end, the Wonder Society Train players that are always in the sane fellowship will benefit from your suggestion 10x more compared to the net0 players.
And I don't look at parked players or end game players but more toward the same input just gives them more in return.
Don't get me wrong, I love the wonder train. I use it on my main server and here on beta as well.

 

[Karvest]

KP threads appeared and became a common thing at the beginning of AW era.
Net0 became well-known a lot later and started to slowly pull players in. It's hard to explain a KP threads users how net0 works, why investing into their own AW is not a waste of KP and how they get profit from net0. But once they get used to it - they will never like to return to KP threads.
Now with KP sharing perk Inno made a first strike to net0 players, forcing them to do additional moves just to utilize free KP from perk.
Your suggestion as is will be a nail in the coffin of net0.

 

[Prueba2]

Your suggestion as is will be a nail in the coffin of net0.

Then propose modifications, please.

 

[Karvest]

As @SoggyShorts suggested - give XP only for investing free KP from perk. Not sure about XP per KP, but looking at how many XP other perks can give you for leveling them up - doubt it will be a big number.

 

[Prueba2]

As @SoggyShorts suggested - give XP only for investing free KP from perk. Not sure about XP per KP, but looking at how many XP other perks can give you for leveling them up - doubt it will be a big number.

Ok. How many XP per KP?

Take into account that weekly it will be:
Level 1: 7 days * 25 FS members * 1 KP * # XP per KP =>
Level 10: 7 days * 25 FS members * 10 KP * # XP per KP =>

And, as reference, Neighbourly Help experience is : 7 days * 25 members * 24 FS colleagues * 10 experience points each = 42000 points (x2 if giving help back = 84000)
Let's say 50%/50% average 63000 points

 

[Karvest]

That depends on what you are proposing it for:
1 - Just to make KP perk rewarding in terms of XP like other perks - then same ~3 XP per KP should be ok.
2 - To make the way to a higher FS level faster - depends on how fast you want it to be.
But if (1) can be approved as a minor change that doesn't hurt balance, (2) can be rejected or lead to further balancing changes making overall progress in perks to take ~same time, but forcing us to level that perk first. Inno is not very good in math, but made max XP/week limited on purpose.

 

[Eilin]

A very bad idea. We have enough xp that are awarded fairly. We don't need a way to drop the AK from inventory to gain XP (and kill Net0). You have to try harder to expand your perks

 

[Prueba2]

That depends on what you are proposing it for:
1 - Just to make KP perk rewarding in terms of XP like other perks - then same ~3 XP per KP should be ok.

That would be weekly:
Level 1: 7 days * 25 FS members * 1 KP * 3 XP per KP => 525 points (less than 1% (0.833%) of consertative estimation of 63k with Neighbourly Help)

As @SoggyShorts suggested - give XP only for investing free KP from perk. Not sure about XP per KP, but looking at how many XP other perks can give you for leveling them up - doubt it will be a big number.

If we compare with Increase Time perk level 1, let's assume that it secures roughly 5 helpings back, that would be:
7 days * 25 FS members * 5 helpings back (not possible otherwise) * 10 XP increase of helping back => 8750 XP (aprox 13.88% of consertative estimation of 63k with Neighbourly Help)

 

[Karvest]

I was comparing it with tourney/spire archive perks which can give you less than 4k points a week at any level. At lvl 10 3KP per XP is more than that, but ~3 KP can be easily transformed to 4 KP or even 5 KP if you want it to be comparable with 4 or 5 helpings back. For me NH perk gives 1-2 additional helpings back until very high level, where it can handle a missing day. + note, when some players miss a day of NH - you shouldn't count them in "25 FS members", so 5 granted daily helpback bonuses would actually be a bit less than 8750 XP/week.
Just took a look at my incoming NH stats - there were only 14 NH missing last week that can be covered by max level of NH perk, so apart from regular additional 1-2 NH back (say 3K XP) max level NH perk would give our FS 3360 XP, ~6360 XP total.
That may sound great, especially for less active FS, which would have bigger amount of lost helpback covered by this perk, but definitely not worth delaying upgrade of KP perk for months since KP perk is giving us something useful unlike NH perk...

 

[SoggyShorts]

I was comparing it with tourney/spire archive perks which can give you less than 4k points a week at

Right, and for most cases it's every second week (bank tournament points one week, spend next week)
So with a level 4 or 5 tournament perk we can expect 2,000 extra XP on average per week.