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Discussion Elementals

jixel

Well-Known Member
simple solution, you can afford only 1 sentient manufactory
Which still takes 6400 of 11300 (or 9000ish or whatever my smaller cities give), and the remaining seeds still need to cover :
- buildings (e.g. the new culture buildings need seeds to build)
- GR productions (fire/ice/whatever productions need seeds)
- unlocking new techs
- and whatever is taken away by decay ...

I say again - this is not "balance" if the seeds required to progress are automatically more than a reasonable city can actually provide.

And how much longer will the GR take with only one sentient goods manufactory ? Am I going to live long enough ? It's starting to become a serious question :)
 

jixel

Well-Known Member
Actually, another thing I was musing on, and I'm not sure Inno have considered it. There's a lot of discussion around allowing for different playstyles, and making the game a challenge, and so on.

But I think many players have a "hidden requirement" - their score should not go down (obviously, discounting temporary requirements for upgrades). But in the long run, score should generally be increasing or at least holding steady.

It's something that seems to be missing from Inno's understanding of the psychology of their players. They want to throw challenges at us - fine. But if those challenges can't be met without sacrificing score, players are going to resist (just look at the forums for proof of that !). So in a game where expansions are getting more and more limited (fewer per GR / 457-province limit / ridiculous diamond costs for premium), and each GR requires more space for GR buildings and upgrades, players who don't want to sacrifice score are getting more and more frustrated, and feel Inno is not understanding where they are coming from with complaints.

(answering the obvious objections - "score isn't important" - sure, then why is there a ranking list ? And it's on the main screen all the time ? It's in the game !
"score isn't a very good measure of progress / development of a city" - maybe not, but it's the only easy comparison between cities that we have !)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Which still takes 6400 of 11300 (or 9000ish or whatever my smaller cities give), and the remaining seeds still need to cover :
- buildings (e.g. the new culture buildings need seeds to build)
- GR productions (fire/ice/whatever productions need seeds)
- unlocking new techs
- and whatever is taken away by decay ...

I say again - this is not "balance" if the seeds required to progress are automatically more than a reasonable city can actually provide.

And how much longer will the GR take with only one sentient goods manufactory ? Am I going to live long enough ? It's starting to become a serious question :)
its not right to look only at the daily production of seeds in your trader, the bonus production is much more important.
If you plan to make a lot of tier 4, you probably want to produce that on 3 hour production? Lucky for you, the collection bonus you can also collect every 3 hours. So retract your collection bonus from the 3 hour cost, and then look at how much you need and if you can cover it then with daily production.

Actually, another thing I was musing on, and I'm not sure Inno have considered it. There's a lot of discussion around allowing for different playstyles, and making the game a challenge, and so on.

But I think many players have a "hidden requirement" - their score should not go down (obviously, discounting temporary requirements for upgrades). But in the long run, score should generally be increasing or at least holding steady.

It's something that seems to be missing from Inno's understanding of the psychology of their players. They want to throw challenges at us - fine. But if those challenges can't be met without sacrificing score, players are going to resist (just look at the forums for proof of that !). So in a game where expansions are getting more and more limited (fewer per GR / 457-province limit / ridiculous diamond costs for premium), and each GR requires more space for GR buildings and upgrades, players who don't want to sacrifice score are getting more and more frustrated, and feel Inno is not understanding where they are coming from with complaints.

(answering the obvious objections - "score isn't important" - sure, then why is there a ranking list ? And it's on the main screen all the time ? It's in the game !
"score isn't a very good measure of progress / development of a city" - maybe not, but it's the only easy comparison between cities that we have !)
im also not agreeing on this. Score is important, but if you need to lower your score temporarily a bit, to be able to get a higher score at the end. I think this is a challenge i quite enjoy in the game.
Not everything needs to keep going bigger an higher. Sometimes you need a 'sabbat' to be able to end bigger and higher afterwards.
 

Vhadyrian

Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see all the buildings on the wiki :p
Really REALLY love the venitian look of this guest race!! ♥

But I have a question: I suppose that manufactories, on level 25 and higher, requires sentients goods right? And do we need only one type, or all types o sentients goods (for example: to upgrade steel manufactory to level 25 do we only need platinium or platinum tree gum and moonstone?)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see all the buildings on the wiki :p
Really REALLY love the venitian look of this guest race!! ♥

But I have a question: I suppose that manufactories, on level 25 and higher, requires sentients goods right? And do we need only one type, or all types o sentients goods (for example: to upgrade steel manufactory to level 25 do we only need platinium or platinum tree gum and moonstone?)
it needs both, see here for upgrade costs:

http://www.elvenarchitect.com/buildings/details/g_elves_factorystone/
 
good evening,

I read all that I found on the elementals. Everything seems pretty clear (I wrote seems ;)). On the other hand a question arises to me. I read (in memory) in the forum that we could trade with anyone but not only our neighbors or confreres (for the goods moonstone, platinum and elven tree gums). Nothing about that appears in my various readings. This could become problematic if our confreres have not completed the halflings and our neighbors either, which is frequently the case. Does anyone have any information on this?

Thank you

:)
 
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qaccy

Well-Known Member
Which still takes 6400 of 11300 (or 9000ish or whatever my smaller cities give), and the remaining seeds still need to cover :
- buildings (e.g. the new culture buildings need seeds to build)
- GR productions (fire/ice/whatever productions need seeds)
- unlocking new techs
- and whatever is taken away by decay ...

I say again - this is not "balance" if the seeds required to progress are automatically more than a reasonable city can actually provide.

And how much longer will the GR take with only one sentient goods manufactory ? Am I going to live long enough ? It's starting to become a serious question :)
As @Heymrdiedier said, the bonus production should total up to well more seeds per day than the 24-hour production. I can collect up to 30k additional seeds per day from my trader if I hit it exactly every 3 hours. That's obviously not realistic, but I average 4-5 collections per day which is still more than the 24-hour base production. Even on days where I only collect 3 or 4 times, I'm still doubling the total seeds I get.

The bonus production does depend about as much on your AW levels as the normal production depends on your completed provinces, but anyone in Halflings should hopefully have caught on and built some AWs by now.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
. I can collect up to 30k additional seeds per day from my trader if I hit it exactly every 3 hours.
I think you may be overestimating how many AW levels the average player will have when they hit chapter 12

If my math is right
24h/3h = 8
30,000/8 =3750 bonus seeds per click
3750/27 (level 27 mainhall)
=138.8
139 AW levels is pretty impressive, as is 8 collections per day(as you pointed out)

I'd go so far as to say 4 collections is on the high end, as is 60 AW levels (especially for those who didn't finish halfings 3 months ago)
That cuts the 30K extra seeds by 75%, down to 7,500 extra seeds per day.

Using myself as an example,
320+ provinces cleared
~60 AW levels
1 month of sitting at the end of halflings dumping KP into wonders
4 collections

15K divine seeds/day tops.
 
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shadowblack

Well-Known Member
In my Main city the collection bonus is 1377 (Main Hall 27 * 51 Wonder levels). All of my Wonders are level 6+:
GA 11
Needles 7
Monastery 8
Mountain Halls 7
BTG 6
Heroes' Forge 6
Temple of Toads 6

And this city finished Halflings months ago. My second city, which finished Haflings at the end of December and still doesn't have enough completed provinces to open the chest for Elementals, has just 891 bonus (Main Hall 27 * 33 Wonder levels). In either one getting 30K bonus seeds seems like a dream.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
getting 30K bonus seeds seems like a dream.
Indeed. I gained 12 AW levels in a month, and those were on 2 wonders from level 0-6, with 100% of my KP going towards them.
more napkin math:

18 months to go from newb to chapter 12
14 wonders at level 10
44,000 KP cost
80 KP donated to your wonders every day for all 18 months to get 140 AW levels, and then you still need to collect 8 times per day to get 30K bonus seeds!o_O

I'm pretty sure no one has accomplished this without "a little help" from some extra accounts....
 
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ALdbeign

Well-Known Member
How about the Blooming Trader Guild? will it also no longer work?
@Marindor could I please get an intelligent answer to this please?

Perhaps i wasn't clear enough with my question.

Will the Bee portal bonus work with portal items from this new chapter or will this be another obsolete wonder with regards to guest races?

Will the trader fee even be relevant or is it a given that i can trade with the whole world (for T4+ goods) and therefore the fee discount is irrelevant?

Thanks so much!
 
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jixel

Well-Known Member
I normally run 2x9hr productions every day ...
If you plan to make a lot of tier 4, you probably want to produce that on 3 hour production? Lucky for you, the collection bonus you can also collect every 3 hours.
I can collect up to 30k additional seeds per day from my trader if I hit it exactly every 3 hours. That's obviously not realistic, but I average 4-5 collections per day which is still more than the 24-hour base production.
Nope, no 3-hour productions for me. Like I said, 2x9hr, because that's all the time I have for this game around work, kids, etc.
And I'm sure there are plenty of once-per-day players who will eventually hit the end of Halflings and want to progress through Elementals too ...

(maybe ... maybe ! if the mobile app didn't need the username/password/world selection to be done Every. Single. Time. I'd be able to collect more often ... as is, it's too fiddly and tedious to enter all those details via phone keyboard for four worlds .. )
 

Letheia

Well-Known Member
Will the Bee portal bonus work with portal items from this new chapter or will this be another obsolete wonder with regards to guest races?
Which other guest race didn't get a bonus from the bee? (I've never had one, so i'm curious.)
 

Miciah

Well-Known Member
ok here is my view all looks interesting and should be a challenge looking forward to making it work......not so happy with 4 squad size upgrades these have ZERO benefit they are in fact a negative benefit... don't tell me they help on world map as most of us are at a point its cater only so no benefit . on to tourney whatever squad size upgrades we get so does the AI again pointless , now on to the negative bigger squad size means more unit losses in fights and such taking longer to rebuild no barracks upgrade to compensate for more unit loss time to rebuild
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
ok here is my view all looks interesting and should be a challenge looking forward to making it work......not so happy with 4 squad size upgrades these have ZERO benefit they are in fact a negative benefit... don't tell me they help on world map as most of us are at a point its cater only so no benefit . on to tourney whatever squad size upgrades we get so does the AI again pointless , now on to the negative bigger squad size means more unit losses in fights and such taking longer to rebuild no barracks upgrade to compensate for more unit loss time to rebuild
While I can understand that for your strategy the technology is not helpful not everyone has the same approach. Every new chapter since dwarves has had 4 squad size techs of which one is optional. Between this obvious pattern and the knowledge on scouting available for over 12 months there is nothing unexpected or surprising here. The pattern of alternating armoury and barracks upgrades has also been known for a long time and was disclosed the first time it occurred that this would be the approach going forward.

For towns that have chosen a different approach they will appreciate these techs to continue to make provincial fights simplistic. Thankfully in keeping the pattern consistent there is no need to adapt our chosen strategies to this aspect of the game as it continues to be predictable. This may not always be the case for future chapters as they like to make us reassess out strategies from time to time.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
not so happy with 4 squad size upgrades these have ZERO benefit they are in fact a negative benefit.
I also will not benefit from these, but TBH I think skipping SS techs is an overpowered strategy.
Hopefully someday INNO will finally listen to us and change the system to something like basing tournament sizes off last SS tech researched, and not total SS.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
@SoggyShorts or even better, allow SS techs to actually provide some benefit in tournaments rather than only being a penalty. I can dream, huh?

Anyway, going back to the seeds, I suppose I may be above the average in terms of AW levels. I've got all 20 built, and I've been here from the start which means I've had a pretty decent headstart in regards to having extra KP to spend on AWs (side note: I can't believe this game's been around for 3 years already). Perhaps my experience regarding seeds isn't very relevant. :(
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
I just made some calculations and decided I will keep all my marble factories and probably will destroy 2 of the 4 steel factories i built, it will be years before I have enough seeds to feed 4 t4 factories considering the next race will probably bring t5 goods and the next t6 probably I will end up with one each, assuming t5 and t6 will demand even more seeds. And I collect at least 5 times a day for the bonus seeds but at
11850 seeds per factory per day it is going to be difficult to feed even 2 t4 factories :(