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Discussion [Discussion] Release Notes version 1.17

DeletedUser1657

Guest
Are the wholesaler offers the same (ignoring boost variances) for all players? Do they vary in quantity (and thus price) bye era?
 

lika1961

Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of feedback on the issues with the wholesaler and it seems that most people agree that it is ridiculous. And yet, we are getting no more feedback from Inno. Quick enough to make a stupid change to the game, but then stubbornly sticking to their guns when it turns out that players are not happy. How many more people need to tell you that you are messing things up?

It is time for you to admit that you have made quite a few bad decisions in a row now and do something about it. Announcing new units in a battle system that does not work well is an attempt at distraction. We see through it and get more irate with each of these feeble attempts to pacify us with rubbish changes that usually cause a whole new range of problems.

If you mean what you say about wanting people to be excited about your product, it is time to stop spinning fairy tales and get on with the business of fixing some things. THE WHOLESALER NEEDS TO BE THE FIRST OF THESE.

We are not happy with the way things are now. Don't know how much clearer we can be. Wir sind nicht glücklich.

Stop messing around and fix this!
 

DeletedUser1513

Guest
Someone said that we didn't had to judge this feature last time when it was announced but not implemented.
Because we first should look to the improvement of the wholesaler.

He was right! It's even way worse than expected!

Not only the trader gets useless, but also the trader becomes useless (as expected)
Normally in this game you should add buildings, with the recent changes i removed more than I added;
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Ok this was the first "difficult" tournament since the start of the new combat on the live server and I really really really fear this update now.

Who am I? well if you combine all the tournaments from all servers into 1 ranking i'll be probebly on the first page, I do tournements a lot since the start of them and when there was a bug that showed a combined tournament ranking f all tournaments on that server I could not find a server that could come close to me at that time.

Why do I fear this update? well it's the damage reduction change, the only and only way I can win anything on the round 6 tournaments are the fact that I quickly kill the biggest threads and then can trick the AI in attacking a unit that I made "immortal" and then slowly sucking the life out of the remaining attacks. the biggest threads usually damage the "immortal" unit quite a lot so by the time I am ready to trick the AI I need it to be immortal just to let it live.

It's taken me ages but I am slowly winning some fights, right now I just finished province 3 this way!!!
If the new damage reduction rules are taken into place I wont be able to actually even win province 3!

lesson nr 1 in game development: dont build to combat the extremes, build for the masses instead. I feel the DR reduction thing was created to prevent people to win a supposed impossible fight by using the DR tricks, but is this change really worth the combat to prevent people to win a random fight or 2 in the provincies and killing the regulars players fun in the process?

Extremes always find a way to do the impossible, but in the meantime you make fighting impossible for the average player, so please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please ignore the extreme combat players and start balancing this stuff for the masses.

If you have ever played DnD, if there is 1 powerplayer in the group and 5 regular players and you start balancing your game towards that 1 player, the other 5 are essentially useless since they can only rely on that 1 player and are useless themselves.
There are some tricks for DM's to balance this issue, but it requires human intelligence and cannot be recreated by a simple script.

When I had to build boss encounters for a DnD multiplayer we never balanced the game for powerplayers, but for a group of 5 regular players instead. this way the powerplayer might have been able to solo it, but the regular players could have there bunch of fun as well.
Before I joined the development team of that server de developers tried to combat my power, and as a result all the other players were unable to complete it without me, while I was still doing the impossible solo by some crazy build once again.

Thats why I learned stop scouring the data and combat the powerplayers, but build for everyone else instead and accept that some players do extremes just because they can and let them.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
It's a problem because when your coins and supplies are at max, you need to offload them immediately, not wait for the next day in case the offers are more to your liking. With the new system, you have two choices: take whatever offer is there, whether you want it or not, or come away empty-handed. What's the problem with the latter? Well... setting aside issues of new cities or cities with few trading partners... NH, for one thing. If my coins and supplies are maxed out, then NH does not benefit me at all, and I have no reason whatsoever to take the time to help any other cities. I would say that that is a problem.

Agreed. I was trying to visit all my neighbors this morning and my coins maxed out. I went to the wholesaler and my only option right now is to spend 270k coins for 300 tier 1 goods! The prices now are a waste of coin... the old wholesaler had 500 tier 1 goods for 200K which for me is the best deal when offloading coin. That's been my go-to since I've been playing. Granted that was a 5:1 exchange rate... but the rate right now is even worse. Hating it. Needs to revert back NOW! I guess today I won't be visiting anyone else. That's a shame because neighborly help used to be a win-win for everyone.
 

DeletedUser867

Guest
Are the wholesaler offers the same (ignoring boost variances) for all players?
Only unboosted goods were ever offered previously, and that probably hasn't changed.

Everybody gets the same offers, modified only by the level of one of the Ancient Wonders if you own it.
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Agreed. I was trying to visit all my neighbors this morning and my coins maxed out. I went to the wholesaler and my only option right now is to spend 270k coins for 300 tier 1 goods! The prices now are a waste of coin... the old wholesaler had 500 tier 1 goods for 200K which for me is the best deal when offloading coin. That's been my go-to since I've been playing. Granted that was a 5:1 exchange rate... but the rate right now is even worse. Hating it. Needs to revert back NOW! I guess today I won't be visiting anyone else. That's a shame because neighborly help used to be a win-win for everyone.
This. I would be okay with an increase to the price to buy from the old wholesaler. I would be okay with a price that gradually increases each time you purchase, and resets each day. I am not okay with the fact that this update strips a player's ability to not rely on their fellowship members in a pinch from them. Because sometimes your fellowship members and neighbors can't trade you a resource, and you need to use the wholesaler to buy that specific resource.

Edit: someone by my main city JUST posted a bunch of fifteen random t3 good for 300 random t1 good trades. That makes me laugh. So I am going to trade half of one planks manufactory's production for what amounts to almost none of your production. Hah. Hahahaha. No thanks.

Only unboosted goods were ever offered previously, and that probably hasn't changed.

Everybody gets the same offers, modified only by the level of one of the Ancient Wonders if you own it.

Which completely negates Muf-Muf's argument that you can trade the unwanted whatever it is for someone else's whatever you want.
 
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Buttrflwr

Well-Known Member
Wow, just wow. WHY are you changing the wholesaler? And why do you ask for our feedback, if you DON'T INTEND TO HEED IT? If you take this wholesaler half baked idea to live servers, then that is the final indication you are only giving us lip service when asking for input, and actually don't intend to heed any of it. From what I have been able to see before I got here, you totally ignored the feedback on the battle update, but I "kind of" get it, you are trying to make up for your poor game implementation and lack of proper testing before game release. I get that, it actually happens all the time when devs get excited about something and send it out before it's ready. But WHY are messing with the wholesaler?!?! LEAVE IT ALONE! The response in this thread is overwhelmingly negative, that should tell you something. Sheesh.
 

DeletedUser867

Guest
Which completely negates Muf-Muf's argument that you can trade the unwanted whatever it is for someone else's whatever you want.
Huh?? If you're boosted in Steel, and I'm boosted in Planks, then we have a natural market.
  • You produce and sell boosted Steel
  • I produce and sell boosted Planks
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Huh?? If you're boosted in Steel, and I'm boosted in Planks, then we have a natural market.
  • You produce and sell boosted Steel
  • I produce and sell boosted Planks
No, what Muf-Muf said was that if your neighbors and fellowship members are all short on, say, marble, and the wholesaler is offering you elixirs (which does nothing if you need marble desperately) you can buy the wholesaler's elixirs and trade them to someone else for their wholesaler's marble. You just said that everyone will have elixirs on the same day, so you won't be able to rely on someone else getting the wholesaler option to buy the good you need when everyone is short on it.
Wow, just wow. WHY are you changing the wholesaler? And why do you ask for our feedback, if you DON'T INTEND TO HEED IT? If you take this wholesaler half baked idea to live servers, then that is the final indication you are only giving us lip service when asking for input, and actually don't intend to heed any of it. From what I have been able to see before I got here, you totally ignored the feedback on the battle update, but I "kind of" get it, you are trying to make up for your poor game implementation and lack of proper testing before game release. I get that, it actually happens all the time when devs get excited about something and send it out before it's ready. But WHY are messing with the wholesaler?!?! LEAVE IT ALONE! The response in this thread is overwhelmingly negative, that should tell you something. Sheesh.
I think I actually agree with Katwijk on something. That should tell the devs how outrageous this is.
 
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DeletedUser1562

Guest
Several years ago someone pointed out these wonderful games to me and I started playing Farmville. Three years later, after Zynga's game developers made such a mess of Farmville, I not only quit Farmville but all Zynga Games. And I patted myself on the back for having NOT invested any money into those games (because of the constant glitches). So, then I was without meaningful game for two years.

Then a little over a year ago I came across Innogames and started playing. I didn't care for any of the games until I discovered ELVENAR. And after playing for a few months I fell in LOVE with this game! After 3 months on the Beta Server I started a new game on the US Server and continued to play both games. Three months later I decided (even with minor glitches and bugs) these games would be WORTH investing some hard currency into. So, I bought $20 worth of Diamonds for each game. And the next month I invested more money and the month after that too.

I have held off seriously commenting on this Upgrade to the Wholesaler because I am throughly ANGRY! At being CHEATED out of a game that I've thought so highly of that I actually invested money to improve my game and have more fun. Investing money in any game is a extreme luxury for me because I'm disabled and have a low base of income that I don't have money to just throw around, on entertainment, like I used to when I was working. But, this last couple of months I've had a bit of a windfall of funds and decided to invest and extra $40 in each game.

So, a few days ago when I logged on to play I came across what you did with the Wholesaler. I thought it was a glitch! I came strait to the forum to find out what had happened only to find the developers had done this deliberately. Luckily I found this out BEFORE spending my money.

You've called this an upgrade and Dynamic. It is anything but that. What it is, is SABOTAGE! And I think that everyone will agree with me.

I visit the Trader everyday. I pick up Trades from several players everyday. I especially like to help beginners and help get them going so they continue to play and have fun. I do not trade between Tiers because I think those prices a a rip-off. I enjoy visiting my Fellowship and other players on the World Map, about 3 to 4 days of the week. I consider myself an active player. I'm on the game everyday. And now because of what you have done with the Wholesaler I have nowhere to spend my excess coin, I have no where to buy the non-boosted goods that I need have been FORCED to pay the EXORBITANT prices that the Wholesaler is now charging for goods that I have no use for in order to reduce my coin supply just so that I can continue to visit my Fellowship and at least the players on my World Map who visit me. But I can't do that even as often as I used to because of the SABOTAGE of the Wholesaler. You've said, you did this to improve player interaction but it's had the opposite effect!

I said that, a few days ago I had planned on investing more money into my game. In fact I know several players who have invested hundreds of dollars/euro's/etc. into their games. And for you to SABOTAGE the wholesaler and our ability to play this game is nothing short of FRAUD!

I'm BOYCOTTING my purchase of DIAMONDS until the Wholesaler is reinstated to the was it was! YOU DON'T FIX SOMETHING BY DESTROYING IT!
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
Edit: someone by my main city JUST posted a bunch of fifteen random t3 good for 300 random t1 good trades. That makes me laugh. So I am going to trade half of one planks manufactory's production for what amounts to almost none of your production. Hah. Hahahaha. No thanks.

I almost spit my soda out reading this. I too saw a bunch of those trades. Like hell I am going to use up all my tier one goods to help anyone now. I used to sometimes pick up some of these trades, but no freaking way now!! If I do I will run out of them faster than you can say Elvenar is dying!

Only unboosted goods were ever offered previously, and that probably hasn't changed.

I was being offered goods I am boosted in a day or two ago.

Oh but please, don't listen to any of us. What do us grumpy players know? Take the weekend off, relax, don't worry about half your player base being up in arms. And implement this on the live servers ASAP so they can have more dynamic fun too!

PS. The game is having lots of trouble loading too. Getting stuck at 8/24.
 

DeletedUser1257

Guest
I think the developers would prefer not to have any players. That way they can keep making bad decisions and no one will complain. Well they do not have to worry about me any more. The wholesaler change is the last straw. Time to delete all my buildings and leave an empty city.
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
Only unboosted goods were ever offered previously, and that probably hasn't changed.

Everybody gets the same offers, modified only by the level of one of the Ancient Wonders if you own it.

Qty of goods on offer was specifically where the questions were aimed. I saw Bobbykitty post a screenshot with march larger good qty's on offer then I have ever seen in mt wholesaler. If it is varying qty (and thus price) by era it at least scales to help out the newer players.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
Well this sucks. I now have pages and pages of someone offering 5000 elixir for 80,000 steel. Thanks a lot Inno.

Trading goods nerfed to add to the list of recent stuff destroyed by the devs.

Thats why I learned stop scouring the data and combat the powerplayers, but build for everyone else instead and accept that some players do extremes just because they can and let them.

This might be the best post in the whole thread. The entire post is brilliant, not just that one quote. I am somewhere in the middle of fighting capability. I was in the top 10 of every tournament we had before. I won many of them. I got to province 3 in level 3 last night and gave up. There are many people who fight less well than I. Designing this system so that the rest of us have nothing is crazy. CrazyWizard is the only one around here who is sane! ;)
 

lika1961

Well-Known Member
So many players telling you how unhappy they are with the changes to the wholesaler and still no response. It doesn't seem like this one is going away, Inno. Maybe its just me, but if players are now threatening to boycott buying diamonds they must be seriously ticked off. I would imagine that is not the result you were hoping for, right?

Perhaps now would be time to admit that you made a mistake and fix it. Quickly.

And just to confirm what should be patently clear by now :

We are not happy with the way things are now. Wir sind nicht glücklich.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
We see the response this change has generated in the Beta community and we are looking into ways to make the Wholesaler more appealing, without simply reverting it back to the way it was. We know that is what everyone is currently asking for, yes, but we made the changes to adjust the system, as it was not working as intended, and it was actually hurting other features. For example: we receive a lot of feedback that the multiplayer features we have are not being used as much as players would like. One of our absolute most important multiplayer features is trading. The old Wholesaler took away a lot of the potential of trading with other players, and we want players to trade more with each other and interact that way. The current Wholesaler makes trades between players a lot more appealing, because you are not able to get every single offer for just Coins and Supplies anymore, and with this change we hope that players will trade more again.

I've been reading this over and over. The reason that people weren't using the trader is because they don't have enough available trades. The trader cannot work without neighbors to trade with. The world map has been broken since day one. Player movement has made hasn't made much of a dent. Plus, the way you dumped the fighting system on everyone has caused even more dead cities, especially large ones in the center of the map that will never get moved. Now, on top of that we aren't allowed to scout very much any more so we will reach fewer neighbors and see even fewer trades.


In short, the disastrous world map system and all the recent changes have made it less likely a person will see any trades because they have even fewer trading partners and yet you made it more important than ever that people trade? Can you see how this can't work?
 
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