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Discussion [Discussion] Release Notes version 1.17

DeletedUser1721

Guest
I'm really not sure why the mods on the non beta forum told me that I had to come here to tell the players that don't pay attention to the beta forum that there's a really sickening update coming, but since they told me to take it here.........:

Hey, players who don't read the beta forum! There's an update on the beta forum that you should look at because you'll probably not know about it until after it hits if you aren't told about it on the forum that you do read. If you bought diamonds to buy premium expansions and haven't spent them yet you should spend them now before the update hits because if you don't, they will be severely devalued. Like, extremely devalued.

Of course, this is the beta forum, and since it's a post meant to warn players who aren't on the beta forum of upcoming changes, it really doesn't belong here. But according to those mods, it does, so..... o_O:confused:

(this is me expressing my frustration with the fact that trying to alert players who normally have no interest in reading the beta forum to the fact that there's a change that's really going to flip their lives upside down, possibly encouraging them to come to the beta forum to complain, or if nothing else, letting them prepare for it, is off topic on the forums which are relevant to the purpose of alerting people who aren't aware of the change who will want to be aware before it hits. But it's apparently on topic here.... where people already know about it.... and don't need to be alerted to the fact that if they were saving diamonds to buy premium expansions later they're about to be made worthless...)

Again, I am reasonably sure that only a miniscule amount of people play Elvenar as their main game, which they are willing to spend hundreds of dollars a month on. Most people who play this game who are willing to pay are willing to spend a few dollars here, a few dollars there, but since it isn't their main game, I am assuming that they have other games or hobbies to spend their money on, and that furthermore, they have things they are saving their money for, because I'm pretty sure that everyone in this category has something that they need but don't have the money for at the moment.

I'd like to elaborate on something I mentioned earlier. Earlier I generalized saying that "people" don't like to spend tiny amounts on in game money each month followed by buying an item after they have enough, but rather spend all the money at once to buy the item they want to buy.

For specific examples, when my World of Warcraft friends want to buy tokens to exchange for gold, they don't just buy tokens every month and gradually save up for an item. They tend to buy tokens all at once, because there's a specific amount of in game gold they are trying to obtain to buy a specific in game item. Those who do buy tokens every month are doing it for reasons that aren't really applicable to Elvenar; their gear breaks down, they fail at farming gold to repair it, thus they're buying the gold to keep it repaired. Elvenar doesn't have equivalent maintenance fees that can be paid for.

$20 for a premium expansion, $30 for a snail palace, is about the maximum that I, personally, could see myself spending at once on this game, and I still haven't made up my mind about how I feel about the snail palaces.

Changing the cost of premium expansions to $50, $80 an expansion puts it beyond the amount of money that I am willing to spend on Elvenar, because it pushes that price high enough that suddenly, the money I'm being asked to spend on Elvenar is a significant portion of the cost of other things I am saving money for. Whether it's a vacation, a new doll, a new car, or other things that people might save for, $50-$80 is a much larger percentage of the cost than $20. It forces people to really look at it and think "..... I could buy this, but if I do, that's a quarter of the money I need to go to the Ren Faire this summer. I want to go to the Ren Faire."

From purely a business perspective, when you're in the business of selling tchotchkies to people, you don't want to make them stop and think about how much money they've been spending on the tchotchkies. This is also how the lottery works. As long as people aren't thinking about what else they could be spending that money on, they will continue handing over small amounts of cash on a regular basis. Increase the amount of cash they're required to spend on a regular basis, and suddenly it will be large enough that they'll see it as funds they could be spending on something else, rather than extra money. Yay for words that I learned phonetically from Polish family members but not how to spell but which fit perfectly.
 
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DeletedUser1548

Guest
Premium expansion cost increase goes to live servers today. So... It's done. ;)

And about manufactories... I decided my Beta city will be small as I don't want to struggle with space so I have:
  • 8 Workshops
  • 6 Marble (level 15 will be less if I manage to get to Wood Elves)
  • 4 Crystal
  • 3 Gems
I negotiate everything and still have plenty of goods. On average 30k of each now after I negotiated 3 provinces one after another.
At some point I didn't have enough gems but now it all stabilised and I could really have only 2 of them.
Will have lots of space for Fairies, finished Dwarves without being stuck, etc.
Don't have to rotate quests. Everything is fine.

Recently someone said it's not about space. It's about greed and I agree. ;) I myself struggle a bit on my main world because I have there 8 Workshops and 8/6/6 manufactories and no premium expansion (I'm rank 16 at the moment).
But guess what? I finished Orcs, optimised my city and now I'm flying through Wood Elves and rebuilding. I see I will not be able to have lots of grafting sites but I don't really mind getting stuck. I level up my wonders (six) during that time. If I feel I need to hurry up I will reduce the culture a bit.
It all can be done but you need to take some time to plan. Think about residences. Do you really need to have them all connected with roads? How much gold is really needed? Unconnecting some of them will give you at least one expansion and you still will be overflowing with gold.
 

DeletedUser1681

Guest
Recently someone said it's not about space.... It all can be done but you need to take some time to plan....
I think this is another excercise in trying to teach us to delete things. Ok, as ag123 says with planning it can be done.
But also it's about having that space which tempts you to to build more factories, which bring you more resources to negotiate with. And then you are getting those provinces and advancing on the map and in the research tree more quicly.... which, I believe we are now beginning to figure out is a bad bad thing. We need to learn to crawl, that's the message.

But what really ****** me off is that this is another example of "oops, we got that wrong - lets fix it with the hammer (a big one)". And I don't really like the idea that it's dropped on the head of a unsuspecting player in live servers (as they did here). Come on why do you think players have paid for dias anyway - I myself have 2 simple things: population (and some culture on the side) and expansions. Both have to do with space.

So I had a forewarning and used whatever dias I had in reserve for expansions to buy them (in my local server). Now I'm waiting to see if the update snatches them away. I'm nowhere near the max (which they lowered) but nothing in this game will surprise me anymore.

So , Place your bets. What will the next update bring - my guess is "oops, people are getting too much population with dias and from events - let's fix that. Now where did I drop that big hammer."
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
my guess, the 33 expansions didnt sell well. So they want to push the remaining diamond player to quickly buy all they can get, before it becomes too expensive even for them :) (and having 10 more expansions then any other player can ever get, that is a big incentive)

Feels like inno has given up on this game and just wants to milk it for some quick cash before they close the books
 

lika1961

Well-Known Member
Recently someone said it's not about space. It's about greed and I agree.
Really???

If wanting my city to grow and prosper makes me greedy, then yes, nominate me for the greedy awards. I tend to think it makes me someone who is playing a game and would like to do well while doing it. I earned each and every point I have, so please excuse me if I get irate when the devs keep taking things away from me. Things that I have EARNED!

This is not about anything but treating your customers badly and expecting them to put up with it.
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
@lika1961 , you are just proving my point. ;) With a city twice as big you would build another X manufactories and your current problem would reoccur. Limited space is the only real challenge here.
People build too much because they want to be higher in ranking and then they struggle forever. Most of the problems would be solved with deleting 1-2 tier 3 manufactory but of course hardly no one does it. Instead they dream of another expansions.

I noticed also most of the cities are not optimised in terms of roads, culture buildings positions, etc. Sometimes it's enough to delete finishing parts of roads and put there little culture buildings to be able to delete one of the bigger culture buildings.

There are many ways to handle all of this. I wrote about some of them but I don't really expect anyone with settled view change opinion.
This issue is above everything else and I would say it's unsolvable because of people's mentality. ;)
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
The reason its done overnight is they dont want us to see it how expensive its getting.

Old version is still in cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...n.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Expansions

Copied doesn't look very nice... The last value is old diamond cost.

Coins Diamonds
1 The Arrival 5.000 200
2 The Arrival 10.000 200
3 Evolving 20.000 250
4 Evolving 30.000 250
5 Evolving 40.000 300
6 Ascending Magic 50.000 300
7 Ascending Magic 65.000 400
8 Ascending Magic 90.000 400
9 Ascending Magic 115.000 500
10 Wisdom and Wonders 140.000 500
11 Wisdom and Wonders 170.000 550
12 Wisdom and Wonders 195.000 550
13 Wisdom and Wonders 270.000 650
14 Wisdom and Wonders 355.000 650
15 A Path to Heritage 435.000 700
16 A Path to Heritage 500.000 700
17 A Path to Heritage 600.000 750
18 A Path to Heritage 700.000 750
19 A Path to Heritage 800.000 900
20 A Path to Heritage 1.000.000 900
21 Dwarves 1.200.000 950
22 Dwarves 1.350.000 950
23 Dwarves 1.550.000 1000
24 Dwarves 1.750.000 1000
25 Dwarves 1.950.000 1100
26 Dwarves 2.350.000 1100
27 Fairies 2.750.000 1100
28 Fairies 3.150.000 1150
29 Fairies 3.600.000 1150
30 Fairies 4.000.000 1150
31 Fairies 4.500.000 1200
32 5.000.000 1200
33 6.000.000 1200
34 7.000.000 1250
35 8.000.000 1250


@mike2910 - thanks, I copied wrong table. ;)

Below the right premium expansions old version:


1 450
2 450
3 450
4 500
5 500
6 500
7 650
8 650
9 650
10 800
11 800
12 1000
13 1000
14 1300
15 1300
16 1600
17 1600
18 2000
19 2000
20 2000
21 2000
22 2000
23 2000
24 2000
25 2000
26 2000
27 2000
28 2000
29 2000
30 2000
31 2000
32 2000
33 2000
 
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DeletedUser1278

Guest
upload_2016-11-8_15-21-29.png


Were searching for this this is the expansion bought with diamonds
yours is gold
lol now its showing the diamond part thxx
 
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DeletedUser651

Guest
But what really ****** me off is that this is another example of "oops, we got that wrong - lets fix it with the hammer (a big one)".

When the 33 premium expansions were first added as something you could buy all at once, so many of us told them that that was too many and you would severely imbalance the game if they did that. We said that the payers would just crush the non payers and the people who were competing would get really tiny really fast and that isn't good for competition. If it is super easy to be on top, no one needs to eke out ways to stay on top. We said it would be bad for sales of culture things. Previously, people were trying to get an extra 3 points wherever they could and they were very engaged. But, the ignored us and dumped tons of these expansions on the game.

Well, I guess they finally realized we were right. This jarringness is giving us all whiplash however.


What they failed to see in this new attempt to balance things back out, is that none of us have enough room. I don't know who on earth is fine with 2 factories of each kind, but not when you are negotiating provinces that have huge costs. Not when they keep adding gigantic new buildings. They could have given us all more room to balance things a bit.

Ah well. At least this will for sure balance the game out quite a bit.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I can't imagine reducing to just two.
Here is what having 2 more T3s in dwarf chapter costs:

2_more.png

That is not quite enough population or supplies, but it's close. Add in a few roads to make it work and you are looking at 8 expansions for your 2 goods manufacturers.
8 expansions is about 70 provinces. Not sure if you fight your way through but if you negotiate, imagine having 70 provinces of negotiations in the bank instead =)
 

DeletedUser1549

Guest
what happends if some one already bought more than 23 premium expansion?
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Here is what having 2 more T3s in dwarf chapter costs:

2_more.png

That is not quite enough population or supplies, but it's close. Add in a few roads to make it work and you are looking at 8 expansions for your 2 goods manufacturers.
8 expansions is about 70 provinces. Not sure if you fight your way through but if you negotiate, imagine having 70 provinces of negotiations in the bank instead =)
And in deleting those two manufactories, my production of magic dust per three hours drops to 2k every three hours. That's critically low in a location on the world map where I can't always depend on regular elixir trades, and the elixir people my fellowship recruited aren't quite there yet. I'm trading them three star trades in dust to get them up. Negotiating in tournaments and on the map costs 4k+ an encounter, and Inno isn't stopping releasing quests that require this. I still need to complete some Ancient Wonders. I need to clear provinces on the world map to complete them, or spend even more goods than I'm already spending in tournaments. 4 tier 3 ancient wonders is necessary to clear enough provinces and tournaments for Ancient Wonders.

Regardless, my primary issue with this update is not the reduction in number of expansions available for purchase. It is the fact that I honestly don't think anyone would be willing to drop $80 on one lump purchase, on a video game that is not most peoples' main game that they play. It seems stupid from a business perspective. It doesn't "reflect their value" at all. Instead, it makes them so expensive that players who wouldn't mind handing over $20 every month for smaller priced items are forced to stop and think about the price when it's that much higher.
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
@Caanna
If you decline those quests to clear provinces you won't need the extra dust. This is what I'm saying, you are clearing provinces to make room for dust that you need for clearing provinces. It's a circle that you can completely cut out. 16,000 dust per day is loads, that's 3 techs in the fairy tree.
Jewess was completely stuck in the game and couldn't get anything done, then she blew up one T3 and suddenly had loads of supplies population and culture.

Regarding your points on the new prices for expansions, $80 just once would make this the most expensive game I've ever bought, and I've pretty much owned half of the consoles since atari. I think the new Civilization VI is cheaper.....
EDIT:
33df5ly.png

Yup, it's cheaper
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
No, I'm clearing provinces to unlock the Ancient Wonders that the devs claim I should have had unlocked by now. And I need the dust to do that. They claim that you should be able to have at least one wonder of each tier unlocked by the time you get to the next one. After unlocking dwarven ancient wonders, and moving into fairies, I now have:
One martial monastery at lvl 6 (TWO full rune ring of martial monastery runes)
One Golden Abyss at lvl 4
One Crystal Lighthouse at lvl 3 with 24 (TWENTY FOUR) runes saved up for when I get to lvl 5
That is all. I haven't even completed my Tome of Secrets, and that was unlocked at the same time as Golden Abyss, let alone the other higher tier wonders which they claim should be unlocked by this point. The tournament only runs once a week, and I'm only able to easily cater the first four levels of the first tournament most weeks. That's only two random runes a week which are most often crystal lighthouse runes.

I want those ancient wonders. The devs claim I need those ancient wonders, that they've scaled the combat system around having those ancient wonders. Not negotiating provinces to get shards is not an option when the devs have told us that the combat system, of which we are now being forced to participate in, is built around having them.
 
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DeletedUser1721

Guest
Considering the new updates to squad size, a slim increase in health translates to huge boosts when you actually get into battle.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
I have a level 15 martial monastery on my US city and if it is helping me, then things must be harder than I think because I am getting decimated!
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Considering the new updates to squad size, a slim increase in health translates to huge boosts when you actually get into battle.

I have a level 15 martial monastery on my US city and if it is helping me, then things must be harder than I think because I am getting decimated!

Waiting for a single squad size upgrade before fighting gives a 8% increase of size which effects both offence and defense compared to MM HP increase which only gives defense. The 1,000s of KP and resources spent upgrading it might be better spent pushing to get that upgrade. Unless you are tech locked or at the end of tech tree of course, then you have to do something with KP.
 

DeletedUser1681

Guest
*snip snip go the scissors...*
When the 33 premium expansions were first added as something you could buy all at once, so many of us told them that that was too many and you would severely imbalance the game if they did that. We said that the payers would just crush the non payers and the people who were competing would get really tiny really fast and that isn't good for competition. ...
...Well, I guess they finally realized we were right.
...Ah well. At least this will for sure balance the game out quite a bit.
Yes, well that's what premium options always do, they upset the balance.
There is this other game where after 3-4 days you would be trying to get your first village up and running and top players would have two villages. Or another game where you could meet a newbie in the arena with weapons so mighty and armour that shine so bright they blind you. Skill or Premium ?

Anyway, when I first came in touch with this game I fell in love with the idea of city building and resource management with a touch of fighting if I felt like it. I also knew straight away that when I start feeling like that after a while I would be tempted to buy something Premium - I often do - the idea of micropayments or early access doesn't bother me if I really like the game. At this point I must say that I myself wonder what on earth made me buy some more dias after the battle update thingy. I should have put that card away, I really should have done it. Well, the answer is ofc that I was still playing this as a city builder and I like a city that has something more than just bare necessities. I don't give a **** what my ranking is.

And as I hinted in my earlier post I really don't like what happened here, update and release notes dropped on us unexpectedly - didn't have a chance to use those dias to upset the expansion balance. I know that in these games there is somewhere a clause that says that developers can change the working of the game etc. but still... I got a forewarning from here for my local server (which by the way only mentions about lowering the max number of expansions, not the rising prices. And a quick look on some other servers/forums reaveals it's not the only one. ooops.)

I'm now contemplating if I should use all those dias to upset the population balance before that option is taken away.

Yours sincerely - a very disgruntled customer - Heffernan.
 
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