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Discussion [Discussion] InnoGames TV - October Episode

DeletedUser651

Guest
Thank you very much Marindor. I really appreciate the answer. (We haven't had any responses to any of our questions in that other thread so that's why I had to go off topic here). But, thank you again for the responses.

Regarding the Oct episode:

I can say I love the new looks of the new race. Much much better looking.
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
I really hope the bigger cultural buildings will also be producing Mana in this new race, cuz if not you will need extra space for these Mana buildings which will be difficult with the limited space we already have and the very limited new one we will recieve, if you look at the small amount of Expansions in the new part of the tech tree. I'm a bit worried.

Further I hope the production times have been reworked,
 

DeletedUser

Guest
How about the bug that no one can win a battle on the world map?


But we are past "shortly after the release on beta". It has been weeks and players were told they should use their troops up. They did, they are now out of troops and wondering what to do next. Do they go back to building up their troops? They have been told one thing that didn't happen. So now they are distrustful. Could you give us an update on the status? Will it be one more week? Two? Do you have no clue?

What should the players on the live servers do? Go back to making troops or not?

Don't listen to INNO. Play your game.


New race - such fun! Well, well... when the old stuff will be fixed.

Mana will become as part of negotiations like orcs. ;)

They are acting like we forgot about "not mandatory fighting stuff."


or ignoring things like this:
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/wonky-walters-power-of-provision-not-counted.6041/

doing it via support shouldn't be an exit! You lose valuable time!
 
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Lissona

Well-Known Member
I wonder about the tech tree shown in the video - the new manufacturing sites of the woodelfes are at the end. Why should I produce the new goods when I'm already finished with the tech tree (until now the goods from the guest races were needed only for the research)...
 

DeletedUser

Guest
...And yes, I like that the new cultural buildings need roads. Without roads our cities look like cat food compressed inside a can. (In my humble opinion, roads provide too little benefit and everyone builds as few as possible. This should be fixed.)

Requiring roads for culture is just another way to increase sales. By minimizing roads, I was able to compete successfully against players with 10-20 Snails...so of course they're nerfing that option.
 

DeletedUser1596

Guest
@bobbipiazza: Speaking about sales.. I'm not quite against it. The more money devs collect, the more resources for development. What bugs me is that there is a "buy" icon on every corner of Elvenar. Not enough RPs? Buy them. Production too slow? Buy. Missing resources? Buy them. Want better buildings? Buy them. Scout too slow? Unit died? Want to hurry up tournament? Buy it all! Soldier training, building queue (builders), city space? Buy now! Not enough shards in an event? Guess what. You may buy it. Oh, and you are missing 9 out of 9 runes for an ancient wonder? Spend half a year collecting them or .. buy them all instantly. Now imagine you could resurrect dead unit after battle. That would be.. oh wait, that's also implemented in the game.

You see, I spend money on diamonds myself, so I should not complain abut it, but this system enables anyone to directly buy a rank. And THAT kills the competition inside the game. And that takes away part of the fun.

But I guess this is something that will not, or maybe cannot change, so let's focus on something that we, players, can change :)
 

DeletedUser1526

Guest
@Urvalsandal
I myself have nothing about buy-buy-buy everything including rank. Don't care. But, I have a huge problem with a) Elvenar forcing me to play in one and only devs way and b) devs puting us all the time in smaller and smaller box of posibilities where the only way to play the game is to buy expansion... They killed almost all the fun just to force us into buying expansions... and they will contine to do this in future - only 3 expansions in new chapter proves it. I want to buy things out of fun and joy not bcs I was pushed. So, no money for Inno.
 

DeletedUser1596

Guest
@Bonaca

b) At the end of an orc era we should have about 1800 squares of not-bought-space. I belive, that I would be able to demolish a few buildings and shrink my city onto a 1000-square space and still be able to fight/buy provinces and from time to time visit the tournament. In fact, aditional space is nothing but a few more points into a ranking chart. If we got 50 free expansions, we would not progress any faster, our cities would not become any nicer (rather opposite) and it would just take far more time to set up production for 20 more mines (or whatever). No, no, I don't belive that number of expansions matter.

a) This is what we will definitely agree on.
 

DeletedUser1757

Guest
@Bonaca

b) At the end of an orc era we should have about 1800 squares of not-bought-space. I belive, that I would be able to demolish a few buildings and shrink my city onto a 1000-square space and still be able to fight/buy provinces and from time to time visit the tournament. In fact, aditional space is nothing but a few more points into a ranking chart. If we got 50 free expansions, we would not progress any faster, our cities would not become any nicer (rather opposite) and it would just take far more time to set up production for 20 more mines (or whatever). No, no, I don't belive that number of expansions matter.

a) This is what we will definitely agree on.
It does matter. I managed to finish Dwarvens without any loss of KPs. I managed to finish them with ~32 kps per day probably even more (some admin could check into logs). But I had to buy start pack which gave me 1 builder + 2 expansion. Then in the middle of dwarvens I bought 2 expansions. If scouting times weren't so ridiculous (max 12h). I wouldn't need to buy more than just a starter pack.
 
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DeletedUser283

Guest
If scouting times weren't so ridiculous (max 12h). I wouldn't need to buy more than just a starter pack.

this is why scouting times get that long, my friend, it is to push us towards spending money on the game;
this game is awesomely planned to incite players to loose patience and spend real life money on it;
unfotunately, some of these efforts happen to backfire, like when they try and prevent us from fighting on the map;
a disgruntled player never spends a penny
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
exactly, slow scouting times, I have no quarrel with that, if it was quick, they would have no sales, they had no sales we had no game.

But while you slow down a player, you never get them to a dead stop, a player who can't play a game, wont spend a penny.
1 expansions every month or so is perfect I still have progress, while my patience is tested to spend money, I am never stuck. (and guess what it worked for innogames)

Will it work in the future, wel if we are stuck? not a chance.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
I agree completely. I am ok with slow scouting times because I understand it gives them money. But they have gotten ridiculous and keep getting sillier. There should be a 2 day cap. 3 day scouting times? I now just faced 3 days 12 hours. That is practically slamming the door in someone's face and it does just lead to disgruntled players. Sure...make money...I am fine with that....but don't shut the game down trying to get a few pennies here and there...like they have with the new battle system.
 

DeletedUser1757

Guest
I agree completely. I am ok with slow scouting times because I understand it gives them money. But they have gotten ridiculous and keep getting sillier. There should be a 2 day cap. 3 day scouting times? I now just faced 3 days 12 hours. That is practically slamming the door in someone's face and it does just lead to disgruntled players. Sure...make money...I am fine with that....but don't shut the game down trying to get a few pennies here and there...like they have with the new battle system.
Is not just few pennies.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I agree completely. I am ok with slow scouting times because I understand it gives them money. But they have gotten ridiculous and keep getting sillier. There should be a 2 day cap. 3 day scouting times? I now just faced 3 days 12 hours. That is practically slamming the door in someone's face and it does just lead to disgruntled players. Sure...make money...I am fine with that....but don't shut the game down trying to get a few pennies here and there...like they have with the new battle system.

I dont mind even a 12 day scouting time, the more you are "ahead" the more you are slowed down, thats just how it works, whats more important is that you at least know there is still something to earn (even if it takes a long long time)
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
Hi guys! Just a bit more information on this subject, which might be nice for you to know: Scouting time depends on scouting costs. This means that the "Advanced Scouts" technology not only lowers the scouting costs, but also the scouting times. When you are as far on the World Map as (I know you hate the word) "expected" at your point in the game, scouting times should be about 1-1,5 days per province. So scouting times will decrease again when you're able to research the next "Advanced Scouts" technologies. This means that when you're far ahead on the World Map, scouting times can become more and more indeed, but they will be reduced once your tech tree progress catches up with your World Map progress. :)
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
@Marindor,
Can you explain a bit more what kind of expectations there are? You keep saying we are too far ahead of expectations, and yet, we aren't far at all in terms of the game.

For example, there are 15 expansions left on the grid for me to get right now because I have made it all the way to the orc chapter. And of course I need a lot of room for this chapter, but I don't have it because I am so far behind on getting the expansions opened. Before the dwarves, as long as I scouted fast enough, I could keep up with all the expansions...eventually. I mean, I was months behind those that bought expansions, but I could eventually get them all.

Then came dwarves and 10 new expansions. By that time my scouting times had really increased and I couldn't get all 10 expansions. Then came fairies and 10 more...then the orcs and still 10 more expansions.

So, here I am now, in the orc chapter, having played this game nearly every day since it started, and at the rate of the scouts I am facing, it will take me around 20 more MONTHS before I have all the current expansions. That is over a year and a half from now. And that isn't counting the new expansions that are about to be released with the new race and the new ones after that.

Since it takes around 9 provinces to get an expansion and I am 15 behind, that means I am around 135 provinces BEHIND currently. And yet, my scouting times are over 3 days which according to you means I am too far ahead.

So, I am confused. Look, I get they want to sell expansions, but if you block the non diamond buyers from having any chance at all in competing, they will quit and that is bad for the game. Being 6 months behind seems reasonable. That is enough for the non diamond buyers to keep trying hard, which creates competition for the diamond buyers who spend more money to stay ahead of them....win win. But being 2 years behind and then that will fall even further...well...that is impossible and pretty demoralizing. And still you say those players are too far ahead of where they are expected? 2 years behind is too far ahead?

I don't understand where they expect people to be? You want us to build orc cities on dwarf space? How could we? WHY would we? That isn't fun.

Frankly, I have always thought that scouting times should be capped. Otherwise, you are just slamming the door in certain player's faces. And we need every player we can get!! This place is a ghost town as it is!

I am one of those players with the long scouting times and the game is getting really boring for me. I can't fight ever again apparently because I am too far past "expectations". I get so little space I can almost never do any building. Are you telling a player like me to either pay or go away? Do you not want people like me here?
 
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Marindor

Well-Known Member
Yes, I get the confusion. Let me try to answer it for you as good as possible :)

It's logical that it would take you about 20 months now for all these expansions, since you'd need the "Advanced Scouts" technologies researched to reduce these scouting times and they come with the new tech tree extensions (which aren't there yet). "Advanced Scouts" are very important technologies. They reduce the Scouting costs, which in turn reduces Scouting Times and reduces the enemy troops you have to fight. So e.g. a distance 12 province while you're in chapter 6 will be much harder than in chapter 9, because in Chapter 9 you'd have researched 3 more "Advanced Scouts" techs, which reduces everything for that distance 12 province: scouting costs, scouting times and troops you'll face. So the more you are ahead on the WM compared to your tech tree, the harder everything will be. That's all about balancing.

The unfortunate thing here with the new battle system, is that you now face some kind of "limit" that wasn't there before, just like it was with the orcs requirements for negotiations a while ago. For new players this is no problem. When they get further, fighting becomes harder and they'll find it logical that at some point they can't win fights anymore because they have to become stronger (advance more in the tech tree). For already established players, it's different for they haven't had this "limit" before. When something is there from the start, it's perceived differently. Take e.g. the goods you need for negotiations at a certain point. At the start of the game, just supplies and coins are enough but very quickly, you need goods as well. Because it has always been that way, nobody cared. It's just an extra "boundary" but it was there from the start, so that's just how the game works and it's fine. Would goods never have been required and we would suddenly introduce that after a year of playing, everyone would be offended. That's how these things work and yes, it would have been better if battles were better balanced right from the start and we're sorry that wasn't the case and that's why it now feels as a sudden limit.

That being said, let's go back to the question about what is "expected". Without wanting to go too deep into the Battle System in this thread (for we have the other thread about that): When you fight against armies that are about the same size as yours, or even a bit bigger (say 2x as big), the fights should be "winnable" by you, with a bit of luck and skill. But when the armies get 4x-5x as big as yours, it isn't realistic to still win these fights.

For your city space: The space that deleting the Fairy buildings yields should be enough to build the initial buildings for the Orcs chapter. During the chapter you are expected to get more expansions (via both research and world map progress, since you are expected to fight about 30-40 provinces every chapter (also see the tech tree locks, which are a good indication). Those who currently have problems fighting because they have 250+ provinces already have the expansions we expect them to have for the Orcs chapter – even more than we expect, to be honest. If you have already placed and filled those, then you might have some space issues, yes. You may have to remove some non-guest race buildings in order to build/upgrade the guest race buildings then. This shouldn't be a problem though, since the game balance was based on this. In the Orcs chapter e.g. residences become quite a bit bigger, but you also need a lot less residences to support your city, so it's no problem to delete some of them. That's a big part of the fun in a city-builder game: Each chapter/guest race brings new challenges in how to make your city as efficient as possible. It's no fun to just add expansions all the time and keep building all the buildings without having to think about rearranging, sacrificing current buildings for new ones etcetera. That the current city grid offers more than enough space to place your expansions is true, but it isn't expected to be fully used yet all the time. Now that there are so many premium expansions available from the start, premium players can obtain a bigger part of that city grid, yes, but that's not what the game is balanced on (and in my personal opinion, it's less fun as well. You can just produce more of everything but the strategic city-shaping factor goes away by having plenty of space available).

Well, it became a rather long post but I hope I have been able to clarify it a bit for you and to have answered your questions :)
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Excellent post Marindor. I was wondering whether the game was balanced based on "filling" the grid which as BK has pointed out can't be done without RL$. Good to know that the max expansions isn't supposed to be achieved, and is just an option for paying players to have an easier game.

While I don't have a city in orcs yet(or even fairies) I'm finding the space available to me by being 5-10 provinces "ahead" of the chest requirements is enough. For example I'm starting dwarves on 2 accounts and I have a plan for everything to fit in a 7x7 grid now and a 7x8 at the end/begining of fairy
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
@Marindor , thank you. Well said, generally. But you know your post could be understood as "you - players who are here with us from the start - are here longer than expected"? ;)

While I was waiting for new guest races the only thing I could do was scouting provinces. It seems I should wait another few years to be in a place you want me to be. ;) Good it's all clear now.
Here on Beta, even though my scout is often idle I already fulfilled Fairies requirements and I am the beginning of Dwarves chapter but it is possible I got so far, so easily because of my previous game experience and balance is set right. I am not sure.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
@Marindor, I sincerely thank you for your post. I have no issue with most of what you said. I get that having a new "limit" in fighting would always be a shock to those of us who never had it before but that the devs think it is important. I can understand that. I understand, and agree, that so much of this game is the puzzle of figuring out how to fit things on the space you have. Mostly though, I am extremely grateful for the reply.

The one issue I still have is that I think the devs are being pretty stingy in how many expansions they are going to let players get from the game. It isn't a big deal until you have been here a long time. Going into the dwarves the space you get is great. Going into the fairies, it is still ok...ish...but getting tight. By the time a player gets to orcs, the expansions practically stop. Scouting times are more than 3 days and will be going up to 4 days. I hear what you are saying about advanced scouts making that number smaller, but there is no other advanced scouts for me to do right now. When I got the last advanced scouts from the orc chapter, it barely changed anything.

Now, we are going to get a brand new race and the tech tree only releases 3 expansions. Even if I go back down to "only" day scouting times with a new advanced scouts, that still means 5 to 6 weeks per expansion...and of course the times will climb again.

I guess basically what I am saying is the game is getting very imbalanced for advanced players and it keeps getting more imbalanced. Only releasing 3 expansions in the new race is essentially telling your advanced players that if they want to stay they are going to have to spend a whole lot of money (or really really struggle with a tiny grid). I think that is bad for the game. If the new fighting system gets implemented you are telling advanced players they can't fight ever again. BAM! Door slammed in their face. They will never "catch up" and be where Inno thinks they should be. They would have to stop scouting for a year or more to be in the proper place and not get ANY expansions in all that time? Who would stick around under those circumstances?

If all the advanced players walk out, that will severely hurt fellowships and cause a lot of other imbalances.

Finally....again, you said that we have more expansions than the devs thought we should have at this point, so we are lucky. I disagree. The game gets so BORING after you have been here a long time and now they are going to make it even more boring? I barely have anything to do as it is (with so many more expansions than I should have). Now the devs think I should have had less to do all this time? Jeepers. Who will stay under those conditions? I don't know. Maybe you can survive as a game slamming the door in the top 300 player's faces, but I think it could be too much of a drastic change too fast.

I also think the devs over estimate the fun of this game. The game just isn't that much fun as the game goes on. It is slow, slow, slow, slow. Making the game less fun with less to do....seems like a good way to lose more customers. If there are fewer players getting through the chapters, that is fewer to sell the advanced culture objects to. Fewer players means lower ranking scores overall and then the top payers don't have to spend so much to stay on top.

We seem to have a constant battle going on here....the game is slow and boring and the devs keep making it slower and more boring in order to make more money. I do not think that is the best way to make more money. I think they would make more money if the game was more fun and less boring.

Plus...let's not forget that you SELL faster scouts. You can pay diamonds to get the scouts to clear a province faster. But you are telling players that they will be punished if they make that purchase.

I understand what you are saying, but I think they are making an error. Thank you again for being candid whether I like the answer or not. I know we all really appreciate being acknowledged and getting replies!!
 
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