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[Discussion] Changes in declining quests

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DeletedUser246

Guest
Damn it ! I thought this 0.24 will release new guest races. Oh god... it takes forever to implement some new stuff.

Dear @Muf-Muf , we need new stuff quickly. We need more boosts on supplies production.
Tier 3 goods takes a LOT of Coins and Supplies to do production. The LVL 15 Workshop don't provide enought supplies to supply the production demand.

You, Elvenar Creators and Designers, have to vanish some of those 24 quests. And put some difficult quests with better rewards.
These who asks you to produce 3 times 1 day production:
b7D3UrL.png

Insted giving 200 silk and 20k coins, why not give us 200 crystal or 200 scrolls ?

And that:
AHJgCjy.png

Instead giving us coins and supplis, why not give us some Battle Units to explore more provinces ?
Making a lot of troops on Barracks, will vanish your supplies.

We need more production on Workshops. 2770 to 9 hour production it's not enought to produce Tier 3 goods at LVL 15 Factories.
Unless you have more than 20 Workshops in your city and 170% happyness in your city, BUT, if you already finished all the researchs, so your town is complete and full, making impossible to change something on the organization.

We need more new stuff. Please, quickly !
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
I have to agree with those who rather want to see the rewards of quests changed instead of changing the quests at all. I really dunno why you came up with something like this cuz alot of us older players who are done with the techtree have alot of repeatable quests we just need to decline. They either cannot be done anymore (upgrade while all your buildings are already level 15) or they make no sense (bad reward, not enough space, not enough ppl...etc).

Besides, I have a question to ask. Why are you going back to that old Innogames behavior of implementing things BEFORE you ask the players about it? You do that in every Innogames Game there is and it always backfires on you. I was always hoping Elvenar would be different, but that seems to be not the case. Very sad to see.
 

DeletedUser744

Guest
Best change ever.
The repeatable quests destroy the game.
Now whe have back a city builder instead of a stupid clicking game.
 

DeletedUser1009

Guest
Looks like Inno found the self destruct button on their keyboard faster this time then with FoE.


self-destruct.jpg


Well, this makes it easy.
I simply wont be doing quests anymore.

I know how to play this game. I dont need them for guidance. < Like anybody has not figured this game out yet after 2 days
The only reason I bother with quests at all is to get goods.
Why the hell should I put effort into something that gains me nothing of value to me?

What about the missions like "upgrade a building to at least level 6" ?
When my city if full of only the highest level buildings only already ?
You expect me to remove a building and then build a new one ?
Its impossible for me to do such quests, and I sometimes get 3 of them in a row to decline.
Now you are telling me I got to wait 3 days till I can get a quest that I can actually use benefit from?

This, if anything, only makes the already dramatically poor quest situation worse.
Sure things need a change, but this is not the way, nor the time to attempt something of this magnitude.

Whomever came up with this idea should feel ashamed.

Best change ever.
The repeatable quests destroy the game.
Now whe have back a city builder instead of a stupid clicking game.

You obviously don't have a city full of max level buildings yet.

Goodluck trying to do quests like "upgrade building to level 6" when all you got is level 15 buildings and not even enough free space to build an level 1 workshop.
Things only get worse now when you can't skip such stupidity.
 
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DeletedUser317

Guest
Khabita....when you start having level 15 factories, you will discover that they are incredibly expensive to operate. Just to get a 3 hour production going I need 52,000 coins and 5250 supplies...and that is on ONE factory. Without repeating quests that give you a bonus for making that production, a fraction of the factories can operate.

So you say...just build more workshops and houses......but what if you are out of room? You can't. You need population for the workshops and you need many houses to produce that population and you need space for all of it.

What are your options then? Not produce any goods. Or tear down factories. Tearing down factories won't happen because that is where all the points are. Players at the top are not likely to do that. Then that means, the top players will stay there forever because they have all the points. The new way they are expecting your city to look will not have many factories. That means all those cities will have a lot fewer points.

Then of course, there is the fact that the top players have scouted far out....I am not that even far and it takes 24 hours to scout one province. It takes 8 provinces to get one expansion. It costs 3500 tier 3 goods to negotiate one of the fights in that province. But now...well...how do I make all those goods if I hardly have any factories left? So...then what? Twiddle your thumbs? Oh...and lets not forget the cost of scouting those provinces....3300000. How long will I have to wait to collect all those coins...oh...but now I need my coins to make the goods...so I don't have the coins....

Are you starting to see some of the issues?

This affects everything.


This is the main problem.

If you implement this, personally i going to loss the "sense of progress" and if that happen in one activity which exist for the only purpose of entertain, for sure i will quit without looking back.
 

DeletedUser1025

Guest
I am affraid that a wrong problem has been addressed. The "decline" option would make sense if the same quest did not come again and again.
An example to add to those mentioned by Philplessis: I cannot fight anymore, my troops are too weak for the strength of the provinces. "Produce 500 sorceresses" seems like a nuisance even first time but when the same quest comes again (without using "decline"!!) after a week or so - what are you supposed to do??? I still have the previous 500! Much use they are in fights, try it! (I am now in provinces scouted for 1200k).
The same applies at lower stages. On the other two servers I am stuck with a repeated quest, done all of the quests at least once and the same quests arrive again and again. What else is there to do than repeatedly decline? I mostly ignore the repeated quest (and wonder why it is there).
The non-declinable quests still contain upgrades of non-boosted manufactories (and other nonsenses), which are so hard that for even starting the quest, you must have a week's preparation (space and population) and days to complete. Or ignore it. So, really, there are no quests worth bothering when you reach a certain stage in the game.
So, there IS A PROBLEM, but it is the one of a limited number of quests, which, in addition, do not reflect the progress in the game. That is why they are repeated in circles, from which there is no escape. The inventive players found out what use they could have of it. That is all.
And we are back to the same problem. There seems to be nowhere to go in this game after finishing the tree. That is why the quests cannot be more interesting. Everyone is rushing to complete the tree (naturally) but then what???????????????????
I would not introduce it on the other servers, it would discourage too many "small" players. Finding active players for the fellowships is already next to impossible. I am not going to tell "my fellowship" there either, it is the only chance for the later comers to quickly approach the early birds, which are massively giving up the game.

Completely unnecessary and irrelevant change instead of extension of the game. Your problem IS NOT the "decline" option.
 

Elderflower

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how this will affect me. I mostly ignore/decline any quest that involves fighting but all the rest I have no problem with - except perhaps any that tell me to build a non-boosted goods manufactory. I'm not in a rush to get through the game so having to wait one day to decline a quest is no big deal for me. It will be interesting to see if this will upset things as much as some people think.
 

DeletedUser778

Guest
I think it will really mess up the planning of a lot of people including me.
Within a 3h circle i need around 47k supplies for training troops and starting goods production, but with my workshops I produce around 13k supplies in 3h. Until now the gap was filled with collect 2k marble/silk/gems quests and 150k coins for 10k supplies.
With all the not usefull quest
  • upgrade boosted manufactory : can't do, everything is level 15 and do not need to produce more goods so far -> skip quest
  • upgrade workshop : all my workshops are level 15 (see above) and I do not need more supplies -> skip quest
  • upgrade residence : everything level 15, blah-blah-blah -> skip quest
  • build an altar of the forefathers : you guys serious ? :mad: this quest made sense after the altar was researched, to force us to build one (and this is guidance !) but the repeatable quest makes no sense at all : it returns less coins and supplies than the cost of the altar in the first place -> skip quest
  • produce armchair, fireworks, etc... : sorry, I do not produce goods on 24h cycles; do you want me to do so, and only spend 1 hour on the game daily ? (collect, launch collection again and help fellows and active neighbours ? I just stopped fighting after having conquered my 134th province so I would not need to be more active than this) -> skip quest
  • gain relics, solve encounters, complete a province : see above, I stopped fighting until new content is available to avoid throwing KPs down the drain -> skip quest
  • gain 100 culture : what for ? if I do not build nor upgrade anything, I do not need more culture ! -> skip quest
I don't agree with all and could add some
One can get lucky to have a usefull sidequest every 3-4 days.

So yeah my town concept is screwed... raising cultural bonus gets appealing again and I need more workshops, to conquer the change.
I guess I will have to sell up to 1/3 of my city and getting headache thinking how to make it working again without too much loss.
I like challenges, but how this is introduced and how bad it is thought through I really don't like and I think like many of the players posted before, for lots of players i will be too much and they quit.
 
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Craven12

Guest
Some quest have only one sollution even when you still buidling. No player will buidl a level 7 Silk factory for a quest when he didn´t have silk as a bonus. So please sort out these Quest and change the rewards. Than 3 days to get the space and then building 5 Armorys and the reward is gold and supplys and it is not enough for 10% of the cost because you need space, people and culture for it then the motivation to complete such quests a not really given.

So ok when you what to change that but then you must change the rewards and as i reed for endgame the whole ecconomy.
 
Wow, so much feedback already! Awesome, thanks everyone, keep it coming! Your feedback is and always will be invaluable!

We'd like to reply to each and every one of you individually, but that might be a bit too long a post. First we'd like to say that we are eager to improve the quest system in general. Constantly declining quests is certainly not intended (hence this change), but that doesn't mean that we will leave it at that. Our goal is to make all quests enjoyable, challenging and worth doing. If that is not the case already (and it clearly isn't or there would not be such massive numbers in declining quests), then we need to improve on that. Limiting the amount of quests that can be declined is a patch for the effect of an issue that is hidden a bit more deeply: apparently not all quests are worth doing. This is the issue we are looking to improve, but we cannot do that without your feedback. So, once again: please keep it coming and tell us where you are getting stuck. Tell us which quests you decline and also why you do that. Why is the quest you decline not a quest worth doing for you? This is the question we need (want) to get an answer for, as that answer is the problem that needs solving most of all.

Having said that, we would like to reply individually to as many of you as possible, so this will be quite a long list of quotes. If we missed anything, please let us know by posting in this thread, and we will try to come back to you! We want to have this discussion with you and we will take the time to do it properly.

Here goes.

First of all, I don't see how far the quests "are rather meant to provide guidance through the game", this is really not the case.
Some quests do make no sense after you have developped your city. Instead of slowing down the game, you should think of introducing relevant quests, depending on the level reached in the game.
We currently have three quest types, two of which can be declined. The story quests (cannot be declined) are the main guide through the game. We then have quests that can be declined, but are not repeated, which are also used for guidance, but are optional for every player to follow or not. Then there is the third type, that is being massively used for quick gains: the repeatable quests. These quests are meant to provide the player with a small "bonus" on their city's income. Quests are not meant to be the main source of income in the game: your city is. In the starting phase, quests do provide you with most of the resources you need, but also teach you and guide you to a sustainable economy of your own, seperate from quests.

I have been enjoying the game for many months Muf-Muf...but only when I discovered the repeating quests. Until I discovered them, I was a new player who was ready to quit. And that was back when I was very very early in the tech tree. The game was insanely long and boring back then.

Once I found the repeating quests the game was playable and enjoyable. Sure, things still took days and days to accomplish, but at least I had something to do.
We are working on new content, which will also give you something to do during the day. We hope to be able to tell you more about this in the coming weeks!

Do you all REMEMBER the problem with all the dead cities? You are aware that a TON of players quit this game very fast because it is BORING. Now you want to slow the game more?
Elvenar is not a game to play through in a matter of weeks: we strive to give you an enjoyable gaming experience for many months, up to multiple years. :)

I have never ever declined a quest before and will not change my behaviour. My city is nearly on top and I am eager to see, how many quests I have fulfilled already (and can click away without more to do for me) ;-)
My tech-tree is ready and my goal at game is to have built every possible at least one time - great graphics was reason no1 to play this beta - this has not changed ;-)
We're happy to hear you're enjoying Elvenar! We're sure that you'll enjoy our upcoming features as well. Stay tuned for more information! :)

I've started a town of humans on the first US-Server, and in the beginning it is hard to get enough coins/supplies to improve houses and workshops and build the expensive culture buildings (butcher, monster fountain).
The buildings that you name (Delicatessen Butcher and Monster Fountain) are not "beginner" level buildings anymore. These are part of the second and third segments in the research tree, making them somewhat more advanced buildings. Once you have reached those buildings, you are already past the "starting phase", so to speak. It is therefore quite logical that these prove challenging to construct in your city.

So it won't be possible to improve a workshop for example, because your builders do anything else, or you don't have enough resources on this day. And what now? Waiting for tomorrow and hoping to get a realizable quest? It will be frustrating for new players, the will have the feeling of standstill and they will leave the game.
If there is a "feeling of standstill", then that is an issue we should address. Please provide more details on the point at which you may feel you are in this position, so that we can improve it. :)

The limited number of builders slows down enough, there shouldn't be more restrictions. Why did you implement declineable quests, if the players should not decline them???
It is allowed to decline them, certainly. We just want to put a stop to the endless declining, as that is not what Elvenar is about. Elvenar is a city builder game, not a "quest skipper game". ;)

I can't research - I've finished techtree.
I can't fight - the knowledge points would be lost.
I can't improve my city - every building is on level 15 now.
And now I can't do declineable quests any longer - for what reason I should login at all?
We are working on more content for you to enjoy, which also includes new technologies. We are working on features that will take a while to completely play through, so stay tuned for that! We hope to be able to deliver more information on it in the coming weeks!

  • upgrade boosted manufactory : can't do, everything is level 15 and do not need to produce more goods so far -> skip quest
  • upgrade workshop : all my workshops are level 15 (see above) and I do not need more supplies -> skip quest
  • upgrade residence : everything level 15, blah-blah-blah -> skip quest
  • build an altar of the forefathers : you guys serious ? :mad: this quest made sense after the altar was researched, to force us to build one (and this is guidance !) but the repeatable quest makes no sense at all : it returns less coins and supplies than the cost of the altar in the first place -> skip quest
  • produce armchair, fireworks, etc... : sorry, I do not produce goods on 24h cycles; do you want me to do so, and only spend 1 hour on the game daily ? (collect, launch collection again and help fellows and active neighbours ? I just stopped fighting after having conquered my 134th province so I would not need to be more active than this) -> skip quest
  • gain relics, solve encounters, complete a province : see above, I stopped fighting until new content is available to avoid throwing KPs down the drain -> skip quest
  • gain 100 culture : what for ? if I do not build nor upgrade anything, I do not need more culture ! -> skip quest
to sum it up : give us quests that make sense, and we will not skip them; preventing us from skipping quests that do not apply to our city is simply showing us no respect.
bring on new content instead
Thanks, Philplessis! This is very valueable feedback and we'll be sure to forward it. You make a valid point that it does not make much sense if you get "upgrade building X" quests, when there are no buildings left to upgrade.

--->Bring on new content instead! Make this a game with quality!
We believe that we already have quite some quality to offer, but we're going to be delivering more, we promise you that!

Make the quests smarter
Yes, that is exactly what we're working on right now. :)

How about increasing the allotted space for our cities and maybe add great buildings, like we have in FOE, to do things like increase the power of our warriors.

Seriously developers, if you go down this path that you are planning, the quests need to be changed. Think about those quests that require upgrading a building and there are several of these in a row. Now consider that a good number of us have maxed out our building levels and the space that you have allotted for our cities. So, even if we wanted to, we wouldn't be able to do these quests. From what you say, we will be stuck in those quests for days; just waiting until we can press the button in 24 hours to move past just one of them. And then pops up the next one that we cannot do. See the problem?
We are working on new content, and the guest races (as mentioned in the latest episode of InnoGames TV) will be the first to arrive! You can be sure that these new guests will bring you some new challenges to overcome!

Dear @Muf-Muf , we need new stuff quickly.
We're on it! ;)

You, Elvenar Creators and Designers, have to vanish some of those 24 quests. And put some difficult quests with better rewards.
These who asks you to produce 3 times 1 day production:
b7D3UrL.png
Insted giving 200 silk and 20k coins, why not give us 200 crystal or 200 scrolls ?

And that:
AHJgCjy.png
Instead giving us coins and supplis, why not give us some Battle Units to explore more provinces ?
Making a lot of troops on Barracks, will vanish your supplies.
Those could certainly be interesting additions and/or changes to the quests. We'll be sure to forward the suggestions! :)
 

DeletedUser590

Guest
Dear Muf-Muf,

Quests are not meant to be the main source of income in the game: your city is.
Of course I understand your concern that the quest system must not become the main source of revenue.

Tell us which quests you decline and also why you do that. Why is the quest you decline not a quest worth doing for you? This is the question we need (want) to get an answer for, as that answer is the problem that needs solving most of all.

One very important thing developpers should think of is to adapt quests to the level of the city. For advanced players (and there are such players on the beta), what is the value of quests such as "build an altar" or upgrading buildings ? Several quests have no interests when you have level 15 buildings, many players underlined this in this topic. With the coming change, you just punish players who invested a lot in the game, this is certainly one of the main reasons of such reactions.

Last, as a side request : you should think of removing irrelevant quests, such as building non-boosted factories
 

Petrograd

Guest
Best change ever.
The repeatable quests destroy the game.
Now whe have back a city builder instead of a stupid clicking game.
I agree with this. I wanna utilize strategy, not just spam-click stuff.

This is a good change, and one decline a day is fair and reasonable.
 

Amarthano

Guest
Thank goodness that moronic repeatable-"quest" - (you could hardly call them quests) -clickathron is scrapped! One reason to play again.
 

DeletedUser590

Guest
Thank goodness that moronic repeatable-"quest" - (you could hardly call them quests) -clickathron is scrapped! One reason to play again.
- Either cancel the quests system (this is a radical option, and personnaly I don't like it),
- Or implement a correct quest system (this is another option, I would rather recommend this)
 

DeletedUser1025

Guest
Having reached the end (hopefully not for long:)), I cannot remember quests any specifically aimed to upgrading any higher than lvl 6 or, for that matter, building the already mentioned altar of forefathers. It seems to me that even quests are not quite yet matched to the parts 4 and 5 of the tree.
Except, maybe, those 500 sorceresses quest...:)
Pleased that we are getting from the "decline" button to the core of the problem!
Otherwise, graphics, as mentioned, is what keeps most of us here, I guess. Now we need more of the game!
 

DeletedUser778

Guest
Thanks, Philplessis! This is very valueable feedback and we'll be sure to forward it. You make a valid point that it does not make much sense if you get "upgrade building X" quests, when there are no buildings left to upgrade.
It doesn't even make sense sometimes, even if you could upgrade buildings. I for myself have level 10 and 11 manufactories, because they are more space efficient, then level 15 ones, so I don't want to upgrade them further, so plz don't remove the upgrade manufactory to level x or higher quest for people with only level 15 manufactories/armories and let me stick with this quest, even if I have no use of upgrading them and don't want to.

Like Katzenprinz said it would be have been nice to discuss such changes with the players in the first place and not hitting them with a wrecking ball.
Then you could have gathered some info how to make the change fluent...
Like I think the majority can agree that quest like:
Increasing Population: Gain 100 Population -> 95000 Gold & 500 Supplies
More Culture: Gain 100 Culture -> 15000 Gold & 8500 Supplies
Are the most exploitable quest, because you can do them over and over again, so they should be removed, or changed first.

Sufficient Goods: Gain 3000 Goods -> 60000 Gold & 4000 Supplies
Crafted-/Magical Goods/Basic Resources: Gain 2k of boosted tier 1/2/3 goods
Players can get together to exploit them hard too. So they are high in the "to change/delete" list too
A change would hit me, because I use them more intended (only collect my own production), but not so much then the recent change.
Unless it is changed from gain to collect, so only self produced goods count.

Advanced tactics: Train 1000 Units -> 70000 Gold & 3000 Supplies
I never did it, because i mostly train treants and sorceresses and training 1k treans would take over a week with level 15 barracks.
So it should be changed to units of a total weight of 1000, or even just 500, because training troops of a weight of 1k still takes ages to train.

More Relics: Gain 4 Relics -> 60000 Gold & 4000 Supplies
Showing Elven Strength: Fight and win 3 Encounters -> 70000 Gold & 3000 Supplies
Knowledge from all over the World: Solve 4 encounters -> 60000 Gold & 4000 Supplies
They are scattered in the repeatables. With the recent change and scouting times of 30-50 hours you can do one of these at maximum, when you want to fight through to distant land and even when they are next to each other I probably would hit them often when there are no encounters avaiable to conquer/negotiate.

So these are just my first thoughts... imagine what you could have gathered, if you discussed this with the players in the first place...
Now you just made many, many players angry and upset. :(
 
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Petrograd

Guest
Tell us which quests you decline and also why you do that. Why is the quest you decline not a quest worth doing for you? This is the question we need (want) to get an answer for, as that answer is the problem that needs solving most of all.
I play completely without units, so I still haven't completed the "build barracks" mission. I'm sure it's inefficient to skip it, but that's how I wanna play. This also means I have no real opinion of all fighting related quests.

As for the repetitive building quests, this is my view on them:
*Gain 40 Steel: I can complete this quest twice every three hours. It's also easy to complete with the help of the trader; the prize for completing the quest covers 75% of the cost of buying 40 steel for gold or tools.
*Gain 80 Planks: I can complete this quest once every three hours. I have less wood buildings, and it's not possible to buy it from the wholesaler, so it's harder to get than steel or marble.
*Gain 40 Marble: Same as Steel.
*Complete a Province: Hardest quest. Costs thousands of resources. Award is meager relatively speaking.
*Gain 2000 gold: Extremely easy. Basically a quest you decline other quests to get to.
*Complete 2 upgrades (to level 4 or above): This isn't too hard, but a limiting factor is that culture buildings, that can be quite costly, don't count. The main problem is that it takes time though; in average maybe 7-10 hours for me. That means I'll miss the opportunity to do the five easiest quest (steel, planks, marble, gold, tools) if I don't decline this quest.
*Gain 500 tools: Easy but is more restricting than gold. Still, one of those you mass decline other quests to get to.
*Complete 3 encounters. About half as hard as the 'complete a province'. Second hardest quest; costs lots to complete and the reward is marginal.
 

DeletedUser590

Guest
Tell us which quests you decline and also why you do that.

As an example : I am proposed to produce 3 pompous wall decorations. I will win 200 Gems, as my Gems production would be more than 10700 Gems with 1d production (BTW I usually plan 3 hours or 9 hours productions).
So for somebody beginning with Gems, 200 is a gift ! For me, the quest is just slowing down the game, I have no other choice than declining it (or should I build 3 new little gems productions ???)
That is what I meant when I wrote quests have to be adapted to the level of the city.
 

DeletedUser1037

Guest
If there is a "feeling of standstill", then that is an issue we should address. Please provide more details on the point at which you may feel you are in this position, so that we can improve it. :)
What more details do you need?
Being blocked in your progress for a whole day (build, upgrade, produce goods/troops), because you haven't enough supplies / coins / goods for only one building upgrade, is annoying.

And then you can wait 24 hours with the useless quest "Upgrade a residence" - which you cannot fulfill, because of not having enough coins / supplies / goods. Or you can't do it, because you have only level 15 houses.
I don't know, why I have to explain more details on this issue, every player knows it.
And everyone should understand, that standstill ist not "long-time-motivation", but boring and frustrating.

You need the extra resources of the "Collect-Quests" in every stage of the game (as @Bobbykitty tried to explain several times, in the end it's very expensive to keep only your manufactories working).

Games like Elvenar normally try to motivate players to spend lot of time in the game. And here Inno seems to try keeping the players away from their cities.

Log in in the morning -> silly quest, that i can't solve -> so I log out and have a new try tomorrow. What kind of concept should this be?

Overworking the quests, and fitting the quests to the development status of the cities is a good idea.

But this kind of reglementation is a very bad step in a completely wrong direction. And it's the third step, before doing the first.
It leaves the impression, that the developers are not playing their own game und are not interessted in finding a reasonable solution.
Implementing only a timer, is the easy way for Inno and the worst way for the players
 
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