[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

[Marindor]

@Mink : I have already apologized for that here :

Just to be clear: Noone is "blaming" anyone for that, for all you did was play the game and try to get as far ahead as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. The only thing is: We see now how this goes in practice and if we don't do something about that, it will bring even bigger balance issues in the future. If anyone is to blame for this situation, it's us. We should have seen that coming from the start and the battle balance should have been better all along. The truth is, this wasn't the case so we had to make some adjustments now. This limits the top players now and we're sincerely sorry for that but we do feel that it's necessary to restore the balance and keep the game fun and challening in the long run, which is our aim.

And I have expressed our thanks on multiple occasions as well.

On a completely different subject: Thank you once again @shadowblack for your feedback here. Because of it, our development team is now working on explanations of the Battle System ingame. We hope to implement this within a few weeks from now

 

[DeletedUser1095]

@Mink : I have already apologized for that here
And I have expressed our thanks on multiple occasions as well.

I hadn't seen that (and I suspect I'm not the only one), so thanks for pointing it out - but in fact I was talking about the design/development team making an apology and some kind of gesture that would indicate that they value the beta testers and other players. Can you ask them if they've ever considered that? An in-game announcement would certainly reach a lot more people than a post on the forum, and a gesture that actually helps us with the game would be more than appropriate.

Also, I asked this before and didn't see an answer: Is the omission of a woodelf armory upgrade going to be corrected? There can't be many players who want to keep the horrid-looking orc armories around any longer.

 

[Marindor]

We as a support team, and me as a Community Manager being ultimately responsible for this market, are representing our entire team here on the forum. Therefore, when I apologise for something here, you may see that as an apology from our entire team. In the end of course I was not the Game Designer or the Developer, and it that same perspective a Game Designer is not a customer supporter, but we're all 1 team, working on the same project.

For your question about the armory upgrades: There's no upgrade planned for the Woodelves, but new upgrades will come in future chapter so for now you'll have to stick with the orc-like building, sorry. I know it's not what you hoped to hear, but I can't make it any "prettier" than that

 

[DeletedUser736]

A few tournaments went on since the new battle system, and I've been testing this out a lot, since I cannot win on the map. At first, I honestly liked the new battle system better (except for the fact that I cannot win on the main map). I tought it was more interesting, requiring a more various use of my troops. But now, I am not so sure, and I have been wondering of other peoples experienced the same as me. As tournaments went on, I found that, actually, to win was simply a matter of fielding 5 times a unit that is strong against the majority of attackers. for example, if there is 5 archer 1 knight, bring 5 cerberus. You bring down the knight first, then finish off the rabble. This tourney is mostly heavy and long range. So I bring priest wich are strong against both. I take a few hits from the archer to begin with, but one 2nd round, they are already all gone, and I can slautgher the rest in peace.

So basically, in the last 3 tournament, I always fielded 5 times the same troop type, and it worked well, even in some case, very well with auto combat. So I am wondering... Is that really more fun than the previous system? And did anyone experience the same?

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

Well, my main city on EN is Elf and both this tournament and the previous one I have been doing the exact same thing: Send 5 squads of Bud Sorceress. I take some damage from Archers (Light Ranged), then I kill them and focus on the rest. Depending on terrain I usually take some damage from Heavy Ranged units that are too far for my Sorceresses to debuff on the first round and occasionally from Knights that manage to get too close.

I think I used 5 Granite Golems once, when most of the enemies were Light Ranged, but for the most part Sorceresses are enough. The only difference from the old system is that now I actually take some damage from Archers due to their new bonuses and that I am even more hesitant than before to use Auto combat, but overall not much has changed in the early tournament rounds.

 

[DeletedUser736]

In the current tournament I am only taking negligible loss with auto combat using 5 priest. Of course, it's only rank 1 right now, so I'll see how it goes when the week advance.

 

[DeletedUser651]

Yes we are aware of these kind of "player actions". It won't make much of a difference though, because if these changes weren't necessary, we wouldn't have made them in the first place.

Players aren't interested in paying more for less of a game than they used to have. 20% of the fellowship has left. Those people won't ever be buying diamonds again, so with them, that isn't so much of a boycott as a permanent ban. I have another 3 threatening to leave and 2 more trying other games. When the product doesn't offer enough, then people won't buy it.

Here is what I don't understand. Why were these actions necessary? Players already were facing 3 and 4 day scouting times that will only lengthen. I have been playing all this time with no diamonds and I have never caught up to all the expansions available. Inno has plenty of expansions to sell to players. Lots and lots of them. So, why was this so necessary? What is so wrong with players having fights they can win? So what if they win them? The scouting times hold us all back so much it is a joke. They can't figure out anything to sell other than expansions?

For the newer people all you are doing is making an already slow and plodding game more slow. UGH. Yuck.

Players have less of a game to play now. It was already bad. Many players gave up on fighting long ago or you would have had a bigger walkout. I don't know why you all keep thinking you have to make things worse to make money. Anyway, people are tired of it. I am tired of it. I don't like this. I don't like losing friends. I don't like everyone being unhappy all the time. I don't like cringing when a new update is coming waiting to see what will fall on my head next.

We begged you not to release this monstrosity live. We begged you. You could have waited until the whole fighting thing was ready. Doing it this way was a really lousy thing to do to us. I appreciate all your feedback Marindor. I hope you will appreciate mine. I could have just left without saying a word, like so many of my best friends. But you have been kind, so I took the time.

Being here feels like being in an abusive relationship. Been there, done that. Always making excuses for the abuser. Cringing when something new is coming. Dreading tomorrow. Blaming myself for any abuse I receive. And being told all the time that any abuse is my own fault. Cowering more and more just hoping for some crumb to be thrown my way. Losing respect each time I stay when I swore if it got any worse I would go, but I have a few good moments left to hang on to, so I keep hoping it will get better tomorrow. Everyone telling me that nothing is going to change and this is just the way "he" is, so I better learn to accept it or leave. It feels lousy to feel this way.

 

[DeletedUser736]

I understand your point Bobbykitty, but i'll be the devil's advocate in this case. I think they are not at all relying on old players to make $$$. I think they actually rely on an influx of new players. I used to play FOE. I was not there in the beginning, but close to. I think when I started playing, they had just released the colonial tech tree. I spent a lot of money in FOE. And at some point, I started to dislike the game. Mostly because I tought the battle system was boring to tears past the colonial tech tree. I stopped playing before the first futuristic tech tree was released. I was not even at the end of the tech tree when I gave up. Anyway. Tonight, I was watching the baseball world series, on a FRENCH channel, and I saw a FRENCH add for FOE. If they can afford to pay for adds during a major sport event, clearly the game is still strong.

Why would the game make money? My guess is that peoples, just like me, try it, like it, spend some time on it, spend some money, and then eventually move to something else for a reason or another. We all eventually give up on this kind of game.

Just take a look at the ranking for elvenar. How many players there is, and how many of them are regular players, far into the game. In the end, we, hardcore player, are a minority. So they are not aiming for our pockets. I think they actually aim for the new players pocket. Everyone will eventually give up on the game. I don't think I'll still be playing this 20 years from now.

So in some ways, I understand them making changes that they think will make the game more balanced and enjoyable for new players. Because THEY are their target, not the few veterans players.

That being said, that does'nt change the fact I am pissed too that I cannot fight on the world map anymore

 

[DeletedUser651]

Because THEY are their target, not the few veterans players.

I totally agree. But players talk and players can read. When you screw one group the others can see that and why would they want to support a game that screws those that give it money? I mean, the people who spent the most are the ones most far ahead and the ones that Inno is punishing the most. When they start the player shaming, everyone can see that. They were "too far ahead"? They needed to be "stopped"? From what? From playing this game? One person even went so far as to say that all the top players are "destroying" the game. lol. Ok. Well....if you don't want players here, good luck with having a game. I think it is a childish belief that you should focus only on new players. One day they will grow up and realize that it might have been a good idea not to orc dung all over their players. Or not.

 

[DeletedUser736]

Only future will tell. Myself, I really hate the fact that I cannot battle the map anymore, but since they did'nt introduce a new roadblock to negotiation with wood elves like they did with the orcs, I will continue to play it.

As a side note, I spent alot of money on FOE, but I never bought diamonds for this one. The reason is simple. It's a beta server, and the game is incredibly expensive. You get much much less for your money in this game than you did in FOE. In my point of view at least.

 

[DeletedUser1345]

It is just too funny. The release of the merc units was delayed because of issues involving their ability to fly over terrain. So while fixing this, they will fix everything. The wheel is going to be reinvented. Then we see that reinventing really means replacing it with a pentagram.
Provinces past a certain point, that many of us have reached, cannot be fought. Negotiation only. Fine, whatever.
Units will die faster in the tournaments, but units build a lot faster, so fast, that the barracks sits idle, but it seems like a wash.
Until the next upgrade human armies will have mortar I units, that can't be used, but I am guessing that elves can only build cerberus I in the new building, so it is almost a balance.
You can build merc units in the place of regular units, if you want. They seem to be weaker in attack and defense. Those are the things that matter most. But we can sell it, at least for now. Put that one down as a less on learned.
The merc units cannot even fly over terrain. That is the thing that started this whole business in the first place.
No unit upgrades in the next chapter. Just another unimpressive merc unit.
If you were not so hard up on the pentagram thing, you could introduce units that have different bonuses. Something that fits outside of the chart, if you did not make the chart so so rigid, and follow it to the extreme that it is at.
Players should report any unbalancing issues, so some small changes can be made to the new fighting system.
I don't think the battle system can be made as fun as it was with small changes. I think players will be using the barracks only to produce new units, and small changes will not change that.
The jokes keep piling up.

 

[Dony]

People should really wait for part 3 of the battle update before evaluating whole system, we will get 3 new units + upgrades we will have 2 types per slot to choose from with different bonuses.
Sorry but flying units werent what actually made whole system to overhaul, i was asking for it long time, it was incredible bugged and no way to fix it, it was inevitable to change it, now it looks promising if they manage to fine tune it.
Only problem is that they decided to split it to 3 parts which was a big mistake in my opinion, they should had much less angry people if they would release all 3 parts together, some things will make sense once is all released

 

[DeletedUser651]

It won't make much of a difference though, because if these changes weren't necessary, we wouldn't have made them in the first place.

and to quote from elsewhere "a lot of players were able to progress much further than expected." and

"The only thing is: We see now how this goes in practice and if we don't do something about that, it will bring even bigger balance issues in the future. If anyone is to blame for this situation, it's us. We should have seen that coming from the start and the battle balance should have been better all along. The truth is, this wasn't the case so we had to make some adjustments now. This limits the top players now and we're sincerely sorry for that but we do feel that it's necessary to restore the balance and keep the game fun and challenging in the long run, which is our aim."

Everyone with over 200 provinces cleared will now simply go back to negotiating these provinces since that is what we were doing already (most of us on the outer reaches haven't fought a battle out there in a long time).

@Marindor Since we are still progressing "further than expected" because we all keep negotiating provinces, will you stop our ability to negotiate those provinces? When?

 

[DeletedUser1681]

... problem is that they decided to split it to 3 parts which was a big mistake in my opinion, they should had much less angry people if they would release all 3 parts together, some things will make sense once is all released

After listening to some very upset people in my local server I really agree. The trouble with players who play for entertainment is that they don't necessarily stop and patiently wait for a whole package or a fix. And even here every fix feels delayed and before it gets to live servers some smaller servers might have taken a bad hit.

 

[Dony]

Since we are still progressing "further than expected" because we all keep negotiating provinces, will you stop our ability to negotiate those provinces? When?

Why they would do that? You are just wasting your resources and making balance in that regard (since you are not hoarding it and keep it for later), while others who have stopped expanding their territory will get it easier later. Game is young, we just starting, and some people already wants to be on the end.

 

[DeletedUser651]

Are you asking why people will keep negotiating provinces?

Because that is how you get expansions. Players want to build things in this city building game. No room, no game.

Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Dony]

Are you asking why people will keep negotiating provinces?

Because that is how you get expansions. Players want to build things in this city building game. No room, no game.

Or did I misunderstand you?

I was refering to why they should stop you from doing it, they are happy if you dont

 

[DeletedUser651]

Sorry Dony. I misunderstood.

Well, they said that they had to change our ability to win fights on the world map because players progressed "too far", so if they think that we have progressed "too far" then they will have to stop us from negotiating too, right? Otherwise, they haven't stopped us from progressing on the world map, all they have done is stop us from progressing by fighting. That's why I am asking the question. Are they going to stop us from negotiating too? If so, when?

The way the game is balanced, you should get about 3-4 expansions from the tech tree per chapter and about 3-4 expansions from the World Map per chapter. For the top players, the expansions they already have from the World Map, is a bit more than that. Just to be clear: Noone is "blaming" anyone for that, for all you did was play the game and try to get as far ahead as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. The only thing is: We see now how this goes in practice and if we don't do something about that, it will bring even bigger balance issues in the future. If anyone is to blame for this situation, it's us. We should have seen that coming from the start and the battle balance should have been better all along. The truth is, this wasn't the case so we had to make some adjustments now. This limits the top players now and we're sincerely sorry for that but we do feel that it's necessary to restore the balance and keep the game fun and challening in the long run, which is our aim. In terms of extra World Map expansions, you're totally right because you will be limited here now until you are a bit further in your tech tree again (and the number of scouted provinces matches this progression). Of course every new chapter will still keep bringing you the tech tree city expansions, so you will get a few extra expansions but less than you're used to now.

The game is also balanced based on this lower number of expansions. Yes, you are right when you say that these 33 premium expansions have been introduced a while ago and that premium players can get a bigger city but the game is not based on premium expansions (and as I said before, though it's my personal opinion: Having too much city space available makes the game less challenging. Of course it makes you able to build more buildings, produce more and get more ranking points, but in terms of game challenge, for me it takes away the aspect of having to arrange your city strategically, which is a big part of the fun of a city builder).

 

[Marindor]

@Marindor Since we are still progressing "further than expected" because we all keep negotiating provinces, will you stop our ability to negotiate those provinces? When?

Nothing specific is known for that yet but since there are still many next chapters to come and balancing is an ongoing process, I should say that new requirements could come up anytime in the future. I just hope we will be able to put these requirements up before certain players reach that stage, for that's what went wrong here. Because we were too late with this, it meant a sudden restriction for these advanced players and of course that doesn't feel good, for noone.

 

[DeletedUser651]

and of course that doesn't feel good, for noone.

I appreciate the kind words and someone at least saying they understand. Many players haven't felt heard in a long time. You are an excellent CM. It is so important for players to feel heard. Please don't think I am arguing with you. I genuinely am still a bit confused.

But I still don't understand this part:

I just hope we will be able to put these requirements up before certain players reach that stage, for that's what went wrong here

According to all I have read we are WAYYYY past that stage and that's why the fighting restrictions were put in place. So if that is true, then how could new negotiating requirements get put in before we reach a stage we are long past?


And one other thing...even newbies can't win fights so they are walking out the door. They have zero invested in this game and find the game no fun at all. Frankly, don't you think all fights should be winnable and rather fun? There are plenty of other ways to restrict progress without taking one of the gaming aspects out of the game. If we can't play, then why play? From a player's perspective, why would you stick around?

Think of all the things you could sell that players would want! You could sell collections of things...everyone wants the full collection. We could have a market where we sell each other our rare buildings. There are so many ideas. Focus on the building/artistic aspect of the game. Let us give each other things...people like to buy gifts for others.