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[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
nor can you fight because you are toooooooo far ahead.

this is one of the most lame excuses I have seen ever in a game, if the game was broken I would agree.
anyway like bobbykitty I will watch the carnage.

In my guild to where we actually do buy diamonds now and then we already decided to not buy any anymore, and several of us are already contempleating to quit if this goes live.

to use someone elses wordt, if the only way to play is pay I wont complain I just quit (and this is a paying customer that just regulary buys some diamonds for fun)

If I cant compensate this disaster with goods I will just look at it for a few weeks to see if they reconsider and then quit as well if nothing hapens (not the bigges spender but I am still a paying customer)

How many paying customers will the loose on this one?
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
Reading that I really wonder what kind of ppl you are expecting to be playing here? You remember that video you gave me? I doubt those ladies would really stand a chance in fighting with this battle mode, its way too complicated and way too hard to understand. They would quit even before you can even ask them for feedback.

Besides, telling us our progress on the map is way too far after almost TWO YEARS sure is slow on your side and not our problem. Same goes for the "overpowered" troops. I know that Sorc 3 are pretty much imba, but then again they were hard to make and cost alot. So what's the problem? Besides, even before you introduced that new battle system it was pretty tough to fight on the map. I haven't fought a single battle there in ages as enemy troops were almost three times the size of mine.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Scouting times and "expected" progression should have matched up from the start.
When you are guessing how far your players will advance you should assume that scouts are sent out about as much as possible.

EDIT: The way to hard cap this was simple- make scouting cost more than you can hold in your MH.
If you don't want people scouting ring 11 before dwarf chapter all you have to do is make scouting cost 4.5M (pre dwarf MH holds 4.4M)
A little balance and tweak of max MH capacity and scouting costs and poof instant cap to what you want
 
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DeletedUser1657

Guest
@Muf-Muf Thank you for the explanations. There are some useful insights there I can use to help my fellowship members leading up to this going to the live server. The % on the tournaments is also appreciated as I was starting to calculate this and you saved me a bunch of time.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
I know that Sorc 3 are pretty much imba, but then again they were hard to make and cost alot. So what's the problem? Besides, even before you introduced that new battle system it was pretty tough to fight on the map.

Agreed! For the longest time all battles were impossible until we got these "overpowered" troops that allowed us to win battles.

Are the devs gambling on our battles or something? Why would you make winning a fight impossible? This is the second dumbest thing ever done on here. Nerfing the quests was the other.

Again, as I think about this....we now need more armories, so we can make more troops, so we can fight to get the provinces to get room needed for the armories AND the extra culture (thanks ag123), BUT, we can't win any of those fights if we have scouted in order to get those provinces.

Can you say catch-22?

Not one word from Goryn. He is too ashamed of Inno and I know it has broken his heart that fighting has now been stopped for everyone. I stand by him with my hat in hand, head bowed, and play taps on a bugle while we mourn a dead fighting system.

So....to be serious now. Since there are a large number of us who have scouted "further than expected", do you want all of us to quit?

Has anyone run it by the marketing department that the devs have just told all the the avid, obsessive gamers to quit and only the casual, once a week, player is allowed?
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
still could anyone tell what an orc chapter province will cost to negotiate?
A long time ago, we might not have been able to fight our way trough provinvices but we could buy them off, what about now?

I am only chapter 4 or so on beta so those numbers wornt work for me.
 
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DeletedUser651

Guest
Seriously folks....this needs to be a big lesson for everyone who has ever given Inno a dime, or thought about giving Inno a dime: They can nerf the game any time they want. They can make any gigantic change at any time. You have no recourse. So decide ahead of time if you ever want to give a company a penny that would do this.


roflmao!!! Oh, and they just made the magic academy even more worthless than it ever was since you can't get relics to make it run!
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
We always try to keep the scouting times and costs reasonable (that is why we have the Advanced Scouts technologies), and if you are within the range of amount of provinces that we would expect you to be at, e.g. the scouting times should always be less than a day for the chapters that we have currently available in our research tree.

The first statement and the second statement do not correlate. Those figures are wildly, embarrassingly, incorrect. IF we have our scouts out there continuously, THEN our scouting times are much longer than a day.


It should never have been possible to get as far as some of you may have gotten, but due to the overpowered units we talked about above, it had become a possibility.

It is impossible for a player to scout faster than the scouting times allow. Moreover, I haven't actually won a fight in forever on the stupid world map, so there goes that theory. Neither have most players I know. What next? Nerf the ability to negotiate for all players because that will be your next excuse? I can see the writing on this wall! No one bothers fighting (as most people don't bother now), and then you will see we are still "too far ahead" and so all negotiating will stop.

(btw, you have a REPEATING quest that has people fight 3 encounters and another that has people gain 4 relics. A REPEATING quest. You, the game designers, REPEATEDLY tell people to clear provinces. You even have a contest right this second that wants people to gain 17 flipping relics!!! Followed by solve 11 encounters?!!!!! Yet, you don't want them clearing provinces? The devs better tell the devs what the devs want people to do around here.)


That would make many of our balancing problems disappear all in one go. But, what would be your response if we would do that now? My personal guess: you would hate us for it and scream bloody murder. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

We won't hate you. We just won't play this game. Most players don't care about you at all. Most don't know you exist.


So we are to continuously make progress, but not actually do it continuously because that would get you too far, but keep playing, but please stop playing, and build your city, But give us back the space you already scouted you filthy disgusting players who already have done more than you were allowed, and build more armories and build more culture and build more wonders, but you better figure out how to do that on a tiny grid because you shameful brats who have not behaved as expected, you already took more space than you deserve! Oh, but if you want some lovely expansions, GIVE US MONEY. GIMME GIMME GIMME!!!! But if you buy scouting with diamonds you will be punished!!!!! Give us money, but buy the right things!!!

And what comes next? Next you will stop ALL of us from negotiating provinces since apparently we aren't allowed to be that far out. You stopped all the people below us with the orc requirement. Now, you want the rest of us to go away?


The only good thing is that 99% of all players already thought fighting was stupid and impossible in this game and didn't bother with it. So this won't affect them.
 
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DeletedUser1657

Guest
The orc requirement for negotiating has minimal impact on negotiating for a newer player and still no upper limit once in orc tech era. Reading between the lines on the changes to combat and the above post from Muf-Muf I would not be surprised in the slightest if we see additional "orc" requirements to slow down negotiators before and after orc tech era to prevent scouting beyond expectations.

It wont be liked just saying don't be surprised if something comes in the future.
 

DeletedUser1596

Guest
From another perspective:
Most people here complain about difficulty, but I'm worried about time management. You see, I spend over 11 hours a day at work and on a wonderful trip there and back. I cannot and I would not play at work. No way. But when I get back, I play hardcore, or at least I try to. You know: neighbourly-help, fight for the provinces, fight in tournaments, do the event(s), send the scout ASAP... but still, every day I lose a lot on 9hour/1day production times, I lose a few RPs, without help I just can't finish a single tournament; and from now on I will not be able to queue-up my barracks for 12 hours without flooding my city with armories. I thought that as the game would progress I would get more options, but it seems I'm getting more and more penalised. I dont't want to critisize your work, but seriously guys, who is this game intended for? I'm well over 30 years old and I'm the "young-one" in my fellowship. Most of us go to work and that's where our money for diamonds are made. Please don't penalise us for that. I will spend diamonds, yes, on reasonable and permanent things like a builder, a missing rune for AW, city expansion.. I just won't spend it on buying troops or speeding up tournament countdown. Please think about that when planning next redesign.
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
exactly;
devs have "decided" that a player should progress "that much" any given time;
some of us have gone further, and now we get the punishment for having been too clever ? what kind of policy is this ?
if we could get to ring 11 before the end of the fairies chapter, it is because game design as it was allowed it, and we are not responsible for game design;
imho, devs should drop this rule of "a player shall not progress more than ..." because it is illogical, and it can be overriden so easily;
or they should have designed ways to slow us down efficiently, instead of bringing us to a screeching halt !

what I see now is :
-I cannot win a fight in a ring 12 province; not my fault, you let me get there in the first place.
-I cannot win a fight in a tournament province higher that 5 and level 3; not my fault, it is your design, not mine.
-a squad of sword acrobats has a bonus against a squad of mages, but cannot dispatch it in 2 blows; what kind of bonus is that ?
-a squad of sorcs has a bonus against a squad of steinlings, but dies almost instantly because all other units focus it;
at the end of the day, you tell us that the old days of "win it all with granite golems and bud sorcs" are over, however this is still the only winning strategy because granite golems are still strong and can make it;
most of the tournament fights for which I suffered high losses or failures were those where I did not enter at least 3 squads of golems.

what I see now is that fights in map provinces are totally out of balance, and it is obvious that you guys do not want us to win them anymore; fine, we will negociate and get the expansions in the end; we always get the expansions in the end.
I have more than 90 000 orcs in stock, try and stop me now.

what I see now is that tournament fights are angled the same way, with insane amounts of enemy troops and enemy squads; fine, I have enough relics in stock, all my boosted goods bonuses are maxed out, I can live without the tournaments.

my city will slowly realign itself towards goods production, I will spend more time on the market and less on the battlefield, and I will go through the motions as usual.

in the last episode of innogames TV, it has been said that "fighting was only an option";
this was a damn lie
fighting is not anymore an option.
 
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DeletedUser651

Guest
Sorry, but the days of "sending only Granite Golems and Sorceresses and win everything without any losses ever" are over.

You say this with glee. Why? You act like we are your opponents and we have been "winning" too much and must be thwarted. Have you lost the whole plot? You are supposedly designing a game....to be played....often....by people. What do you want to "win" out of all of this? You want no players? Are you guys trying to get unemployment or something and you can't collect unless the company goes under?

I agree with Phil. I will just continue to never fight in the world map.

edit: I found more contradictory insanity:

If you fight a lot, we would also recommend to build one (or more) of the battle-related Ancient Wonders and upgrade those. Ancient Wonders are always an investment: at their lower levels they don't give super-high bonuses, but those can rise quickly once the buildings are upgraded to the highest levels.

So they have now nerfed the ability of people to get anywhere in the tournaments and at the same time, tell you that you need to get wonders (which you now can't get runes for), to a very high level (while you can't get kp from tournaments any more).

Does anyone there PLAY this game?
 
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Preator

Well-Known Member
In general, we would expect you to be just a few provinces above the number of provinces needed to unlock the next chapter in the research tree

This explanation is definitely "bulldung". To find out why, let the numbers talk a little bit.

I am currently at the orc chapter.

The maximum number of expansions i can open is 100.

Base expansions: 6
Research expansions: I have 34, maximum is 35
Province expansions: I have 47 (331 provinces cleared)
Premium expansions: 2

Total expansions I have: 89 out of possible 100. I will have 90, once I research City Expansion 35.

Let's have a look at what the game designers want me to have:

Base expansions: 6
Research expansions: Maximum 35 for orc chapter
Province expansions: 27 ~ 34 (160 provinces needed to unlock the orc chapter, which corresponds to 27 expansions. In order to unlock the next chapter, which we do not have yet, I assume we will need 190 or 200 provinces. A "few" above 200 would lead to 33 or 34 provinces at max)
Premium expansions: Maximum 33

Total expansions I can have without premium expansions: 75 out of maximum possible 100

So;
If I (as a player near to the end of the research tree) would have cleared a number of provinces the devs expect me to, then without any premium expansions I can only have 3/4 of all available expansions. If I want to have all, I need to purchase 25 out of the 33 available premium expansions, which is more than 75%.

Until now, I have been able to play without spending any money in this game. Thanks to the bug reports, I have been able to purchase two premium expansions. But with this change, you won't let me play without spending money.

I am ok with premium content to give some advantage. But this is not advantage, this is "you can't live without premium content".

This means to me: UNBALANCED AND POOR DESIGN

In this case, the excuse is worse than the crime.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
unfortunatly, since you dont pay for the bills, they dont mind if they loose a player like yourself.

But they will also loose players who actually do pay, the problem is is we pay 100 euro, they think it aint enough and they want a lot more.
exactly 42600 diamond minimum.
Thats at least 240 euro, anyone unwilling to pay at least 240 euro should just leave the game, you're not worth it to spend any recources and there valuable time at.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Scouting times and "expected" progression should have matched up from the start.
When you are guessing how far your players will advance you should assume that scouts are sent out about as much as possible.

EDIT: The way to hard cap this was simple- make scouting cost more than you can hold in your MH.
If you don't want people scouting ring 11 before dwarf chapter all you have to do is make scouting cost 4.5M (pre dwarf MH holds 4.4M)
A little balance and tweak of max MH capacity and scouting costs and poof instant cap to what you want
You are crazy. ;)
It would make more sense to include in negotiation
Ring X dwarven stuff.
Ring Y fairy stuff.
Ring Z orc's stuff.

Bu with this fighting change and adding guest race goods would make it FoE clone. Which is their plan.

Code:
All you need to know they are making FoE clone.



@Muf-Muf Is pointless to play your games if you can't do anything. What do you think?
 

Deleted User - 60107

Guest
I registered on Beta to try the new battle system and have slowly been making my way through the game. So far I have noticed two major issues:
1) I am facing units that have bonuses against me while I have no bonuses against them. Examples:
- Steinling has bonus against Light Melee and Light Ranged. The ONLY units I have are Light Melee and Light Ranged, since I am still in Chapter I.
- Cannoneer - just like the Steinling they have bonuses against Light Melee and Light Ranged, and I have only Light Melee and Light Ranged
2) Enemy Squad Sizes are MUCH bigger than they are supposed to be, and considerably bigger than mine. I even made a bug report about it: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/enemy-squad-size-bugged.6010/ As you can see from the screenshot the enemy squad size is supposed to be 9, yet I am facing a group of 37 units. And this is province #7. I need to complete 10 provinces to open Chapter II. If the enemies in province 7 have this much of an advantage I can only imagine how much worse things will get in the future.

Could some advanced player check and report if this discrepancy between the supposed Enemy Squad Size and the actual Enemy Squad Size is present for them as well, or if this is only in the begining?
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
lately one of us underlined the demographics on the live servers : many retired people;
these people are generally well to do; not rich, mind you, but they have that extra cash that they can spend on "small pleasures", such as a nice online game :)
it is time to admit it, Innogames !
Elvenar is nothing but a cash cow
at the time when mature games like FoE are happily giving out diamonds in all sectors of the game (quests, guild expeditions, wishing wells, and even that province on the campaign map), other games like Elvenar are designed so that players with little tactics are tempted to lean towards the dark side and spend money on some more building space, or on that awesome-looking culture building that will be outdated when the next guest race cometh;
I have nothing against that, you know, Innogames is perfectly entitled to make a game that is engineered to maximise their income, I'm fine with that;

but please, pretty please with sugar on top, do not make it THAT obvious ....
 
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