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Discussion Chapter 15: The Elvenar

palmira

Well-Known Member
I finished the race both live and on beta, with one day diference, with only 2 T6 factories but with the help of a lot of time instants to speed T6 productions. Seeds were a problem because one needs a lot to upgrade the factories and live I was hindered by orcs, this chapter asks for loads of orcs and I had only around 300k at start. Now I am building a fifth armory because I am out of orcs again and there are a lot of upgrades to do.

On beta it was quite complicated because getting the needed bismuth was not a simple task, I ended up loathing basically all the bismuth traders on beta, specially the ones that offered their bismuth at the limit of unfair trades, 1:4 (and I produce shrooms, the poor guys producing soap must have a real hard time ); live the trades were quite smooth most within my FS so I was never hindered for lack of trades or for having to do 3* trades with my shrooms, something that happened all the time on beta.
 

maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
I'm having some trouble to exchange soap against bismuth or shrooms indeed. So 1 T6 is plenty, because well, what's the point in having more soap noone wants?
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
So 1 T6 is plenty,
Well, some research items require 400K+ of T6. This would be really hard to do with a single T6 unless your decay is extremely low, and even then it will take a long, long time. Unless you use a lot of time boosts - then indeed you can do it with a single one and be really efficient in terms of MM enchantments and avoiding decay altogether. But that's A LOT of time boosts...
 

maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
Well, some research items require 400K+ of T6. This would be really hard to do with a single T6 unless your decay is extremely low, and even then it will take a long, long time. Unless you use a lot of time boosts - then indeed you can do it with a single one and be really efficient in terms of MM enchantments and avoiding decay altogether. But that's A LOT of time boosts...
I do use a lot of time boosters, not for the event obviously lol
still with a good manufacture, mm a good trade center and more often than not 3h productions, its not THAT long.

a bit of maths : I get 8347 soap this way every 3h. let's say 5/day (more 3/ d + 1*9h, but it's more or less the same result) so about 41k/ day
add to that 1/3 x 70% of my daily orcs (1296+880x5+1900x3+1200)

all in all, I'm making 44674 a day. my simia reduces the loss to 7.4% per night. So after 15 days, I'll have my 400k if I really need that much.
so, yes it's long, but not out of reach

and as you say, if I'm in a hurry, I'll use up a few time boosters
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I assume you're referring to your primary city on NL1? Certainly you don't put your city as a comparison to an average player? You have 650+ AW levels, including L30 Timewarp and Simia. That's pretty impressive, and would have some impact ;) I don't do 10K in tournaments weekly (only about 3.6K), so my all-in KP intake is 59 KP/day over the whole chapter, and I entered the chapter with slightly more than 100 AW levels and the exact minimum scouted provinces (so 400). That's probably about as much as any F2P player would get doing all chapters since #1 back to back with no in-between periods (that's what I did). So I'd argue that my city is a lot more average than yours ;)

With that, 5xL24 T6 (so not maxed up because of pop requirements) + some 5 MMs/day were slightly overproducing T6 for the second half of the chapter. Could it be done with 4x? Probably, but then I'd had to watch production much more closely. More importantly, it really depends on which server you are on, and what your T6 boost is. My boost was the most abundant one (bismuth in this case), so in order to get timely fills for shrooms I had to trade at 1.1:1, and for soap at 1.2-1.25:1. So here is your extra manu right there. For me, zero techlock was the goal so I had to move goods quickly.

Bottom line is, average users generally don't do speedruns ;)



Are you sure about that? This sounds way higher than I calculated. I believe even if you produce zero guest race goods and just dump PPs, it would cost slightly less than 1700% for all the research (depends on the order of research due to portal cap). With some auxiliary production (mostly to rebalance guest race goods to minimize portal overflow and wasting PPs) I am on target to complete with about 1200% PP total.

The point was that you don't need 5 t6 factories to avoid being techlocked, if with my city I can't get techlocked with 4 of them than how is an average user getting techlocked with 3-4 factories? (ok you could not use manufactoring spells that would work)

And the case about the person who sais 2600% pp needed, and 2 weeks for the chapter, thats pure BS.
Even is someone sends 5.8m of T6 as a gift to you, there is no way without diamonds or spending insane amound of goods that you can compensate for 3000KP you are still short when doing 6k points in the tournament, with a lvl 30 book of secrets and 7 dats 24KP from the KP bar.
I dont believe that anyone at that stage of the game can afford that much KP anyway, thats like what 40-50m goods? (ok I could afford that if I wanted but I dont lol)
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
The key is that we've been ready for a few months at the end (seed, mana, merchandise) and most importantly, I don't play stupid points on the leaderboard. So my city is highly efficient. Moreover, after fixing the tournament bug, there is no problem having from around 250-500 VB to research weekly = 1250-2500 in 5 weeks of race (only by fighting). The rest will be covered by the wells of wishes and the normal production of the city.

Race took me from 17.10. to 27.11. When I added VB to the last research and only waited for the bismuth to be unlocked. Now I'm just waiting for the event because the sale of the portal generates resources so perhaps one of those annoying tasks will be fulfilled.

The seeds, however, are a bit of a problem, at the beginning I had over 1 million of them and I gradually got to zero. Right now, because I support others with living goods, there is a lack of seeds to improve manufactories or wonders.

There was almost no need for an accelerator, at the beginning a little dia with which I substituted the orcs (only to produce those 6x 10 000 when a few orcs were missing). Of my own stupidity but, if I did not spend it would not be necessary but dia are useless and crowded my tower, so I did not mind them to use it a bit.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
The point was that you don't need 5 t6 factories to avoid being techlocked, if with my city I can't get techlocked with 4 of them than how is an average user getting techlocked with 3-4 factories? (ok you could not use manufactoring spells that would work)
Even without the full model that I run, here is a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation. First of all, L24 manufactories are more efficient pop-wise than the maxed ones. 4xL27 T6 produce pretty much exactly the same as 5xL24 T6, while requiring 8.6K more pop. I could afford extra 5x5 for extra manu, but I can't get 8.6K pop extra in the same space (L27 would be slightly more efficient with respect to MMs). With 748% boost, 6x3h collections per day and 24/7 MMs, 5xL24 will net about 170K of T6 a day. That's a pretty aggressive profile, so let's say 150K T6/day to account for slippage.

So on the KP side of the equation, I run 3.6K points tournaments every week, plus a few buildings that produce KPs (no KP farming by any means - I don't even have any Carting Libraries placed at the moment). No KP buying at the moment. This nets long-term average of 60 KP per day (and this number had been very consistent since about Dwarves to the tune of 57-63 KP/day in each chapter). So nothing super extraordinary here. This doesn't even include negotiating any of the map provinces in this chapter so far. Most T6-gated research items in chapter 15 are 100-150 KPs, so average is pretty close to 120 KP, meaning by and large 2 days worth of KP production on average for T6 production to keep up.

Now, 150K/day is about 300K per 2 days, and that's even before one day of decay. There are several techs that need more T6 than that. You can adjust for that by stockpiling during techs that need less than that, but they're all pretty expensive (200K+), and stockpiling makes decay more of an issue.

But wait, there is more ;) Not all T6 are created equal. Just because I produce 300K of bismuth in 2 days doesn't mean I can get 300K of soap in 2 days. As I said, in my particular case moving bismuth->soap trades in a reasonable timeframe required 1.2-1.25:1 ratios. Add on top of that that KP inflows are not uniformly 60KP/day (quite a bit higher during tournament even if I try to manage inflows; and lower in the off days), and even with 5x T6 it can be somewhat sketchy if the goal is zero-techlock.

The above is not just theory, it panned out exactly like that in my live playthrough. Like I mentioned, I may have been able to get away with 4x T6, but I would be just as likely to fail my objective, if for nothing else than for inability to trade for non-boosts at a premium. Again, you bring up your example as a comparison. I'd argue my setup is much closer to the "average" user, especially on a going forward basis when players won't have forced downtime in-between Constructs and Elvenar chapters (I had only 8 days in between chapters, so no stockpiling for me). You KP inflow is indeed much higher than that "average" user, but you also have a lot more resources than average user, many of which directly impact this argument (e.g. available space/pop, L30 Simia and Timewarp, massive AW levels -> excess seed production so that sentient production can be juiced at will with timeboosts, which you also have in abundance given time in-between chapters). Plus you may have been able to trade 1:1 for non-boosts - this makes a big difference.

And the case about the person who sais 2600% pp needed, and 2 weeks for the chapter, thats pure BS.
Even is someone sends 5.8m of T6 as a gift to you, there is no way without diamonds or spending insane amound of goods that you can compensate for 3000KP you are still short when doing 6k points in the tournament, with a lvl 30 book of secrets and 7 dats 24KP from the KP bar.
I dont believe that anyone at that stage of the game can afford that much KP anyway, thats like what 40-50m goods? (ok I could afford that if I wanted but I dont lol)
You might be surprised at what is possible for some people ;) I was observing one of the top players on my server (live), and could track his chapter progress pretty easily by seeing what upgrades are up. So up to about day 16 (when I upgraded portal to L4) I was running even slightly ahead. This felt good ;) (this is deep-blue city, I am F2P). Then in the next week he pulled slightly ahead, but just marginally. Then around day 21 when I unlocked Residences and Barracks tech, I could see him starting Armories upgrades. So still pretty close. But imagine my surprise when 1-2 days later I checked this city, and saw no settlement except for the portal. Well, here comes PP-only mode I thought. And then I saw Thermal Spring of Youth and Vortex of Storage, both at L5. Wait, what?! o_O

So that's about 3 weeks in mark. But even more impressive is not just that - is that it looked like 2/3rds of the chapter were done in literally 1 day. Can't imagine how much would that cost...
 

maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
You might be surprised at what is possible for some people ;) I was observing one of the top players on my server (live), and could track his chapter progress pretty easily by seeing what upgrades are up. So up to about day 16 (when I upgraded portal to L4) I was running even slightly ahead. This felt good ;) (this is deep-blue city, I am F2P). Then in the next week he pulled slightly ahead, but just marginally. Then around day 21 when I unlocked Residences and Barracks tech, I could see him starting Armories upgrades. So still pretty close. But imagine my surprise when 1-2 days later I checked this city, and saw no settlement except for the portal. Well, here comes PP-only mode I thought. And then I saw Thermal Spring of Youth and Vortex of Storage, both at L5. Wait, what?! o_O

So that's about 3 weeks in mark. But even more impressive is not just that - is that it looked like 2/3rds of the chapter were done in literally 1 day. Can't imagine how much would that cost...
looking at upgrades to see the standing point is totally irrelevant
I (not sprinting ahead, F2P) don't upgrade barracks until I have room for it, meaning I can get rid of the settlement, for instance. same for armories, or workshops or manufactures
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
looking at upgrades to see the standing point is totally irrelevant
I (not sprinting ahead, F2P) don't upgrade barracks until I have room for it, meaning I can get rid of the settlement, for instance. same for armories, or workshops or manufactures
It's not totally irrelevant. You know if you see an upgrade in place it means that it is unlocked (obviously), the opposite is indeed not necessarily true. I also haven't had any upgrades in (except for residences). This player clearly upgraded as he went though. But some upgrades would be rushed in regardless. I am pretty sure everyone who unlocked L3/L4 Council Hall would immediately start L3 upgrade. If you don't see it, this means player haven't reached that research point. Residences is also pretty easy upgrade as there is no change in dimensions, and costs are insignificant for an advanced city.
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure everyone who unlocked L3/L4 Council Hall would immediately start L3 upgrade. If you don't see it, this means player haven't reached that research point. Residences is also pretty easy upgrade as there is no change in dimensions, and costs are insignificant for an advanced city.
Not really, you need a lot of t5 to upgrade the Council Hall and if you have only one t5 factory you have to wait a while until you have enough (it is over 100k if I remember correctly, at least for the second upgrade). I only upgraded the Hall a few days after I unlocked it. And for me live the same with the barracks and mercenary camp but for those for lack of ogres. ANd for factories you need a lot of seeds, this race is very hard on everything
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@MinMax Gamer Yeah, exacly like palmira writes, I have unlocked the first Main Hall upgrade technology, but I haven't started to upgrade it yet - I do not have enough T5 for that upgrade.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
I am talking about Council Hall (portal), not the Main Hall.

Council Hall only needs moonstone, platinum and bismuth for construction and upgrades, so no T5 is needed at all. And amounts are not high - 60K of T4 and 22K for T6 for L3 CH. Way less than for anything in the research tree, and this upgrade immediately boosts production of all guest race buildings, hence improving input efficiency of each. Sounds like a must to me.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
It is necessary to use the profit portal. That is, the researcher of the portal 3-4 has to improve as soon as it can and then continue research.
 

Jixel

Well-Known Member
Again, you bring up your example as a comparison. I'd argue my setup is much closer to the "average" user, especially on a going forward basis when players won't have forced downtime in-between Constructs and Elvenar chapters (I had only 8 days in between chapters, so no stockpiling for me).

... I just have to say, it's very likely that neither of you is anywhere near representative of the "average" user in any way. "Average" players are not regularly getting 3600 tournament points week after week, or 60kp a day averaged out, or running 4 or 5 T6 manus.

Anyone who is playing on that level is an extreme outlier, and here's where I see a problem - it seems that Inno is starting to balance the game for players like you, not players like the actual average player, thus making it hard-to-impossible for the true average/casual player to get through.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
... I just have to say, it's very likely that neither of you is anywhere near representative of the "average" user in any way. "Average" players are not regularly getting 3600 tournament points week after week, or 60kp a day averaged out, or running 4 or 5 T6 manus.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you here ;) but just to clarify, I don't normally run 5x T6. Up until that point in time I was running with just 1x of each sentient manu, and that (with some MM) was sufficient for zero techlock in all chapters before Elvenar. For this chapter I had to run 2+2+5 sentients, and as soon as I am done I will tear them up, as there is not much need for the sentients in-between chapters.

I agree on the chapter balancing part, even though I think it is more of a potential disconnect with future events. I've got the impression that Elvenar chapter is designed with people who acquired a crapton of powerful stuff from previous events in mind - timeboosts, PP, high performance seed / mana / pop etc. And while definitely not everyone stocked up to spec from the last events, at least it was possible to do so. But if event outcomes from the current event is an indication of how future events will look like (i.e. can't get nearly as much powerful stuff from the event), then players who will get to this chapter in some not-so-distant future will be majorly shafted, as I don't think that chapter requirements are going to change, but good stuff from the events won't be there, at least not in the amounts it used to be.

Not an issue for current chapter 15 players, but I'd be pretty disappointed if I had to play it 6 months later, with the events like the current one in between. That's my biggest problem with reducing output of dailies from the events. I don't think it is balanced against new chapter requirements.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Tournament winning really does have a strong component about willingness to put in the time. The growth in time and lack of response to making the time demand reasonable to compete for top spots to me really means that it is now drive for who has the strongest will to keep going through drudgery.

To me it seems the natural evolution of games, developers consistently add drudgery or fail to respond to how much repetitive tasks increase and they drive players away, or set an environment that players inclined to spend money get tired of the lack of response to ensure it remains a game and doesn't become overwhelming drudgery.
 

DeletedUser1953

Guest
l finish Elvenar on FR-Fely, and in point of view of optimization, i need to teleport T4, T5, T6 in my inventory and place T3, T2, T1 to produce more. Sure there is the spire but the cost in somewhat insane (10% max gold by slot/nego) and i do not like the spire. I think Inno need some incencitives for end player to keep T4-T6 factories !
 
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