Not a Bug Bonuses from abilities are multiplied wrongly

[Dony]

Game version: v1.18.3-(ed3dc9d) (2016-11-10 9:45)
Game world: Beta1
Browser + version: Firefox 49.0.2
Flash Player version: 23.0.0.207
Operating System: Windows 10
Screen resolution: 1920x1080
Account name: Dony
Humans or Elves: Elves

Reproducibility: 5/5 (1/5 = happened once; 2/5 = happens randomly; 3/5 = happens sometimes; 4/5 = happens often, but not always; 5/5 = happens always)

Quest title: none (if applicable)

Current situation:
From version 1.17 bonuses from abilities are multiplied rather then summed up, but the calculation of positive and negative bonuses are wrong, resulting in taking more damage then intended.
Treant II has 80% damage reduction against heavy ranged (Cannoneer II)
Enchantres II has debuff which makes taking 40% more damage
Cannoneer II hits Treant II with only 8% damage reduction and not 72%
For some reason game count this together as:
100% base damage + 80% damage reduction + 40% increased damage taken: 100 * 0,2 * 0,4 = 8 = - 8% reduction.

Expected situation:
Calculation should be correct. And thats if 100% base damage + 80% damage reduction + 40% increased damage taken should be: 100 * 0,2 * 1,4 = 28 = -72% reduction.


Reproduction Steps :
1. Find encounter with Enchantress II, Cannoneers II
2. Attack with treans II
3. Check damage from cannoneers II in first round, it will be -80% on treants II
4. Let Enchantress II hit Treant II and place a debuff on him
5. Cannoneer II will hit Treant with -8% damage reduction instead of -72%

This does apply to all other combinations of diferent units with buffs/debuffs.
If its 2 abilities with increased damage it works, if its 1 ability with reduced defence (increased damage taken) and 1 with reduced damage taken, its wrong

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

For the record, it's the same with Elder Treants on the EN server. Guess I don't need to make a bug report about it.

 

[Artios]

I agree!

 

[Heymrdiedier]

I had the same issue, enchantress with -50% damage base, debuff doing -50% again: result was -75% wich is correct.
Then a kannoneer did a +30% damage debuff and i ended up with -52% damage taken. I trued calculating how i got to that number, but never figuered it out. (still cant even if i read this bugreport)

0.5*0.5*1.3 = 0.325 so should have been -67% damage instead of -52%

 

[Dony]

another example:
Blossom mage has -70% damage reduction against heavy ranged
Enchantress place debuff on him +40% damage received
Blossom mage got -2% damage reduction against the same heavy ranged

0,7*1,4 = 0,98 = -2%
it should be
0,3*1,4 = 0,42 = -58%

 

[DeletedUser1771]

First of all I would love to explain what + or - percent represents in the battle system. I will use Donys' example with Trent II, Enchantres II and Cannoneer II.

Treant II has 80% damage reduction against heavy ranged (Cannoneer II)

Trents have basic damage reduction of 100%, and against heavy range units (Cannoneer) 80% more.

Calculation: 100*1.8=180

When a Trent II is hit by a Cannoneer II the game shows '- 80%'
This tells us that the Treant has 80% more defence against the Cannoneer.

Now let see what happens when the Enchantress does her magic.

Enchantres II has debuff which makes taking 40% more damage

When an Enchantres II hit a Trent II he will take 40% more damage in the next round.

Calculation:180-(180*0.4)=180-72=108
If a Cannoneer attacks the Trent his damage reduction is, as we calculated, 180. But the Enchantress reduced his ability to defend by 40% (180*0.4). His 180 is reduced by 72, to 108, but he is still defending with more than 100%. He is defending with 8% more, and game shows that as -8%.

Now lets check this calculation on Donys' second example with the Blossom mage and Enchantress

another example:
Blossom mage has -70% damage reduction against heavy ranged
Enchantress place debuff on him +40% damage received
Blossom mage got -2% damage reduction against the same heavy ranged

Blossom mage against heavy ranged has in total 100*1.7=170 damage reduction. The game shows that as -70% (which means defends with 70% more). Then the Enchantress hit the Blossom mage and the Blossom mage is cursed and will receive 40% more damage in the next round. 170-(170*0.4)=170-68=102. The Blossom mage will be still defending with more that 100%, by 2% exactly. So the game shows that as -2%.

The game is showing correct %. This is not a bug. The calculation might look a bit complicated to us, but % calculation is complicated. We should carefully consider all factors before calculation. There is a huge difference between curses done by some units, some reduce damage given, some damage taken.
If your unit attacks +% means that your unit is giving more damage, -% means that your unit is giving less damage.
If your unit is attacked +% means that your unit got more damage, -% means that your unit got less damage.

 

[Dony]

180-72=102

 

[DeletedUser1771]

Thank you Dony, my mistake

 

[Dony]

damage reduction of 100%

for whole world but inno 100% damage reduction means 0 (zero) damage taken
no wonder it looks complicated by your explanation, its because its completely wrong equation

The bonuses from abilities are no longer summed up, but rather multiplied - this resolves problems where the attributes can add up to 100% or more

so by inno 170% damage reduction is not more 100% and it actually solved problems, if nothing this is completely wrong statement in patch notes, which leads to all this being a bug, also because its not multiplicative but additive (180-72=108) (i know part is a multiplicative but it would be better to have it all multiplicative)

it would be even much more clear/better to use my example of math in your game then your broken example
i am evaluating this all again and may post later something more.

 

[Dony]

how it feels:

i take units with 80% damage reduction against something supposed to beat
then enchantress show up and mix things up
from 80% to 8%
difference is 72% meaning nulifying my defence bonus, which doesnt feel right

lets imagine going with only units with base damage reduction 100% (no other bonuses)
enchantress show up
with math you are using its 100 - (100*0,4) = 60 = 40% damage increased (since its less then 100)? this feels fair if you are using this math also difference is only 40%

main problem with this bug is you are taking 100% base damage reduction which isnt reduction in any case, its normal damage, and you are taking from this number another 40%

if nothing more fair would be 180-(80*0,4)=148

another bug here involved is if debuff increasing damage taken and debuff reducing defence are 2 different equations, then having same icons for both of them is completely misleading and wrong, should be changed asap

if this stays this way it will be for most people unbearable fraud, reducing 80% damage reduction by 40% to 8%, how are non fighters suppose to choose their units, if even they choose right they still are wrong, or irrelevant

if only excuse for this is to make fight last 0 turn faster then i dont buy it, i already had example if 1 treant squad against 1 hellhound squad takes 15 turns
and also then should other bugs be fixed to make fight be fair in that regard

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Say a cannoneer does 100 damage to a unit. if that cannoneer shoots a treat with 80% defense against him, the damage the treant takes is 20 right?

Now that enchantress debuffs the treant with +40% damage taken= you would expect that that 20 damage taken would become 28 damage taken? I was good at math, but i think germany teaches other kind of math.
That it becomes 92 damage taken does not make sense at all. that in my book is a +460% buff
Before the change it went from 20 to 60, this didnt make sense either but at least it was understandeble to make it simplistic.



In this case the damage taken goes up 72% from a +40% debuff

say my unit has -20% defense against your unit: SO 120 defense. a enchantress debuffs him with +40% damage taken. this means 48 less defense, so now the enemy unit +28% damage

In this case the damage taken goes up 48% from same 40% debuff.

if you have 0% extra defense, it makes sense that the damage taken goed up 40%

So the bigger defense an enemy has the more you destroy it by debuffing it with +Damage debuff. that would make humans have a huge advantage of elves, since they have a ranged unit(s) that do that +Damage debuff, so they can destory all the extra defenses without a problem. So in other words you changed a 3 golem + 2 sorceress setup in a new 3 paladins + 2 priests setup. this doesnt fix anything at all

 

[CrazyWizard]

@Tajanstvena

A agree with dony's and heymrdiedier assesments,

This way af calculating stuff is both broken and not
Dony and heym have already explained well enough why, so please fix this and get rid of the "not a bug" prefix.

if the bug aint in game, than the bug is in it's design, one way or another a bug it is for sure.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Now that enchantress debuffs the treant with +40% damage taken= you would expect that that 20 damage taken would become 28 damage taken?

sorry i am wrong, the enchantress does not do +40% damage, it does -40% defense. thats a big difference. with -40% defense thats a huge buff compared to +40% damage taken, as i pointed out. -40% defense can mean +460% damage.

I didnt notice the + damage taken has dissapeared and was all replaced by - %defense -% attack.

So maybe this is indeed not a bug, but then the bug should be that the enchantress is too strong.

Still think this change favors a 3 paladins + 2 priests setup in all fights, wich is the reason we had this combat overhaul in the first place. (altho with elf version)

 

[Dony]

Debuff says increased damage by 40% and not reduced defense, misleading for sure

problem with this is if we face 7 heavy ranged we choose heavy melee to deal with heavy ranged, enchantress reduce our damage taken (our defense) from -80% to -8% thus making it increase by 400% more damage by the target (heavy ranged) they are supposed to deal with

if you take instead of heavy ranged against heavy ranged and have no bonus at all, enchatress reduce our damage taken (our defense) from 0% to 40% increased damage taken thus making it increase by 40% by the target (heavy ranged) they have no bonus against it

if this is all not confusing and wrong then i have no other words

 

[Heymrdiedier]

So i tought id take this 'not a bug' issue to my advantage.

I wanted to try to kill a priests with golems while using the blossom mage as debuffer (-30% defense)
so i debuffed the priest and i would assume the damage would be 170 - (170*0,3) = 119 defense, so i would assume my golem would now get a -19% damage display. I was wrong the damage display was something in the -40% (i assume -49% but was gone too soon). What made it even worse, my golem debuff (-10% defense) overruled my blossom mage debuff, so the next golem did -63% damage, wich is also wrong according to your calculation. it should have been 170 - (170 * 0.1)= 153 = - 53% damage.

do you guys still think there isnt a problem here?

 

[Dony]

there is no reason to not use simple damage formulas which everybody else using and which actually works over complicated formula which is not fair to player (its only fair to enemy) and which doesnt work well
1 - basic coeficient
>1 increased damage (1.2, 1.4 etc)
<1 reduced damage (0.4, 0.8 etc)
there are other ways how to make fights faster then this

 

[Heymrdiedier]

just noticed something else thats weird:
i have only golems to attack a priest: first attack of priest does - 70%
next attack on priest does -53%
third attack on priest does -76 %
4the attack does -53% again
5th attack does -76%.

Doesnt make sense since they all have the same debuff, being -10 defense to enemy.
The fact that -53% is among it (wich is what i expected in my last post but didnt get there) seems like the numbers are right sometimes, but it seems very random now.

this can easily be checked by a mod/dev right? easy to reproduce?

 

[Dony]

maybe you had debuff from feral wild archer which reduce attack by 30%

 

[Heymrdiedier]

maybe you had debuff from feral wild archer which reduce attack by 30%

aha, this is possible

 

[DeletedUser1771]

Dear Elves and Humans, please leave your thoughts, complaints and suggestions in the appropriate threads and don't abuse bug report topics for that, thank you .

P.S. When I had first fight after update of the battle system I lost all my troops . Now I build troops all day and loose them in 2 or 3 fights. This is how new battle system works. Is it fair or not, that is also issue which might be discussed somewhere else. I will gladly join you in those discussions to "defend" % calculation and explain whatever is needed. Sorry, but I'm maths lover .