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Armory breeding ground has very bad math applied

edeba

Well-Known Member
This needs to be looked at because it looks like bad math unless it was intentional that orc production per square be drastically downgraded.

So at the end of Alumi you get level 31 and you can produce 740 orcs in 12 hours in a 3x7 armory, so orc/square production is 740/21 = 35.24.

At the end of constructs you get level 33 and you can produce 870 orcs in 12 hours in a 4 x7 armory, so orc/square production is 870/28 = 31.07, for an approximately 12% decline in orc production.

Population required per square for level 31 is 2430 for 21 squares or 2430/21 = 115.7 population/square.

Population required per square for level 33 is 3973/141.9, or an increase of population per square of 22.6%.

For orc production to keep up with the increased population requirement take 740 x 1.226 (for the increased population) x 1.3333 (for the increased size) = 1209.6, or 1210 orcs/12 hours.

Combining the increased use of population and increased number of squares we have an effective 39% (1210/870 -1)*100 decline in orc production.

If this is not an error, it is very frustrating that we need to apply math to appreciate doing what one would expect to do in the game, upgrade buildings, is a very bad idea.

I've just upgraded everything on live, but if this is intentional, I will be rebuilding them one at a time and leaving them at level 31 because it is simply a bad game play to fully upgrade armories with this kind of drastic downgrade in production/population.
 
Last edited:

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
As this is not a bug, but intended by design, I moved this thread to the General Discussions forum now. However, we have passed this on as feedback for our Game Design team :)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
If i see how many of these armories the ranking players are building, im thinking its all intentionally to give decent ranking compared to factories...
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Seriously, the intention was to make the upgraded armory be that grossly less effective?

I was waiting for clarification before I start rebuilding and leaving them at level 31, but I am really annoyed that I wasted huge resource building an extra one to level 33 and that I upgraded my existing armories to level 33 and I have a huge rearrangement problem to destroy and rebuild to level 31. And this whole insane logic has made the orc squeeze that much worse in that this is a lot of time to get them converted back. I ended up with about an expansion of land that is just being used for building armories through rebuilding 7 more armories.

I would like you to ensure that this is looked at because looks like someone missed the boat in including compensation for the 33% increase in the size of the armory.

So 4 level 31 armories take 84 squares, as does 3 level 33 armories. (level 31 - (21x3)*4=84 and level 33 - (28x4)*3=84)

So this is what 4 level 31 get and cost and 3 level 33 get and cost:

Level 31 Orc production for 12 hours: 740x4 = 2960
Level 33 Orc production for 12 hours: 870x3 = 2610, so on a per square basis 12% decline for upgrading.

Level 31 training levels: 280x4= 1120
Level 33 training levels: 400x3= 1200 so a 7% increase in training levels for upgrading.

Level 31 population requirement: 4x2430= 9,720
Level 33 population requirement: 3x3973= 11,919 for a 22.6% increase in population requirement.

The extra population requirements take up an extra 8.5 squares, so the upgraded armories are really even an additional 10% worse than to just directly compare orc productions and training levels, so really, the orc production is down 20% and the training levels are down 5% if you count the extra population requirement.

It really looks like they forgot to include compensation for the 33% size upgrade.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I really wish people actually doing the chapter had picked up on how important this point was that you brought up. I was in fairies on beta when constructs came out so I had nothing to compare to how serious this was, especially in light of the increase in demand for orcs in catering costs is an order of magnitude high than possible increases in orc production.

People have really missed the boat on this one.

@Marindor can you please ask for clarification again because the numbers don't lie, upgrading armories is as the upgrades are laid out is an extremely dumb idea, and seriously, game design that makes it so moving forward and increasing levels hurts your game is even dumber.

I am really choked here because I've really kept my eye on orcs to ensure I've been keeping up, but not excessively so and I don't have enough orcs to carry me through switching this around as the rate of decline to my inventory of them is pretty high.

I had already opened this thread: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/orcs-quantity-from-armories-at-32-33-levels.12407/
and I wonder why nobody of the team answered me before... am I affected by plague?
 

Anec

Active Member
Level 32: 1100 Orcs / 12 hours
Level 33: 1200 Orcs / 12 hours
Other time slots would scale up accordingly.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
Ok, made some math myself:
Data:

Lv 31 armory:
-21 fields
-2430 pop
-5871 culture
+8301 points

Lv 33 armory:
-28 fields
-3973 pop
- 9556 culture
+13529 points

With this, I have calculated 2 variants:
a) Upgrade my 4 armories from 31 to 33
b) Leave my 4 armories at 31 and build 5th.

a) 4 armories 33
-15892 pop
-38224 culture
+54116 points
+1600 training size (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
+5120 orcs/day (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
-112 spaces by armories themself, -173 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

b) 5 armories 31
-19865 pop
-47780 culture
+67645 points
+2000 training size (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
+6400 orcs/day (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
-105 spaces by armories themself, -181 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

So unless I have a mistake in my numbers it seems, that choosing b and sacrificing only 8 additional spaces (5% more than a) I gain 25% more training size, 25% more orcs and 25% more points.
And this simply means, that instead of upgrading my 4 armories to 33, I'll build additional one and leave them at 31 level (they are pritier anyway).
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
also take into account SSS AW that is scaled with number of armories levels and you'll get much more profit in training size, even if you leave 5th armory at lower level.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Exactly, with the adulteration of basic math principals being applied to the game, not leveling the armories is the best game play. I am very annoyed that you can't trust a logical game play to be a good one because I did not realize I was wrecking my game by upgrading them.

I hope who ever is doing the math for this game had to spend all of their summers in summer school for math, or rather, maybe the game wouldn't have this kind of perverted math if that had actually happened...

Ok, made some math myself:
Data:

Lv 31 armory:
-21 fields
-2430 pop
-5871 culture
+8301 points

Lv 33 armory:
-28 fields
-3973 pop
- 9556 culture
+13529 points

With this, I have calculated 2 variants:
a) Upgrade my 4 armories from 31 to 33
b) Leave my 4 armories at 31 and build 5th.

a) 4 armories 33
-15892 pop
-38224 culture
+54116 points
+1600 training size (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
+5120 orcs/day (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
-112 spaces by armories themself, -173 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

b) 5 armories 31
-19865 pop
-47780 culture
+67645 points
+2000 training size (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
+6400 orcs/day (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
-105 spaces by armories themself, -181 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

So unless I have a mistake in my numbers it seems, that choosing b and sacrificing only 8 additional spaces (5% more than a) I gain 25% more training size, 25% more orcs and 25% more points.
And this simply means, that instead of upgrading my 4 armories to 33, I'll build additional one and leave them at 31 level (they are pritier anyway).
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
The major problem with very low orc production is that there are 2 types of troops that can't be trained, the orc strategist and the orc warrior. While we can get the first from the grounds and craft as many as we want in the magic academy, the warrior is a completely useless troop as we can not train it in significant numbers. And to compound the problem, in constructs we need 500 orcs/enigma avenue. So there should be a way to get orcs in numbers that justify the existence of orc troops
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
you still get more rankingpoints per tile if you upgrade to max, so for some upgrading to max is still what they will do.
 

Ritsel

Guest
Ok, made some math myself:
Data:

Lv 31 armory:
-21 fields
-2430 pop
-5871 culture
+8301 points

Lv 33 armory:
-28 fields
-3973 pop
- 9556 culture
+13529 points

With this, I have calculated 2 variants:
a) Upgrade my 4 armories from 31 to 33
b) Leave my 4 armories at 31 and build 5th.

a) 4 armories 33
-15892 pop
-38224 culture
+54116 points
+1600 training size (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
+5120 orcs/day (wiki data * 4 armories 33)
-112 spaces by armories themself, -173 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

b) 5 armories 31
-19865 pop
-47780 culture
+67645 points
+2000 training size (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
+6400 orcs/day (wiki data * 5 armories 31)
-105 spaces by armories themself, -181 spaces armories + residences (not counting culture, since I have 60k free and don't care)

So unless I have a mistake in my numbers it seems, that choosing b and sacrificing only 8 additional spaces (5% more than a) I gain 25% more training size, 25% more orcs and 25% more points.
And this simply means, that instead of upgrading my 4 armories to 33, I'll build additional one and leave them at 31 level (they are pritier anyway).
Don't follow your math

According to the Wiki
1 Amory lvl 31 gives 280 training size and 1090 Orc production

In your example you mention 2000 training for 5 armories, but with 5 you get 5*280= 1400
And you mention 6400 Orcs/day, but with 5 you get 5x 1090=5450


So, upgrading my armories to max (on live) gives me more training Size, and especially because this is very benefical in combination with Simia Sapiens, I'll take that (I hardly train orcs anyway)
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Yeah, @Lovec Krys took wrong row for calculation.
But if you are aiming training size - 5x31 would be better then 4x33 if you have SSS leveled a bit.
For orcs production 5x31 is still better too.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Don't follow your math

So, upgrading my armories to max (on live) gives me more training Size, and especially because this is very benefical in combination with Simia Sapiens, I'll take that (I hardly train orcs anyway)
now i dont follow you. How would Simia Sapiens make any impact on armories? or Armories on your Sapiens?
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
So, upgrading my armories to max (on live) gives me more training Size, and especially because this is very benefical in combination with Simia Sapiens, I'll take that (I hardly train orcs anyway)
But you need a huge load of orcs (and t6 mercs) to upgrade the simia: 21k orcs to get it from 5 to 6, and going up for sure on the next 5x levels. If you want to level the simia you will need a lot of orcs
 

Ritsel

Guest
now i dont follow you. How would Simia Sapiens make any impact on armories? or Armories on your Sapiens?
The bigger you training size is per training squire, the more units per squire you get from the Simia.
My Simia on live is now lvl 3 with 5 armories max and SSS and Bulwark, and I'm getting 502 extra units now. With less amories and/or on a lower level I would get less out of my Simia.

Simia.jpg
(sorry picture example is in Dutch)
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
If your training size is enough to sustain your training queue - it doesn't matter how many bonus troops you took from single trained squad pickup, total bonus troops would depend only on production speed...
 

Ritsel

Guest
But you need a huge load of orcs (and t6 mercs) to upgrade the simia: 21k orcs to get it from 5 to 6, and going up for sure on the next 5x levels. If you want to level the simia you will need a lot of orcs
I've been stockpiling Orcs ever since the Orc chapter, so I'm good for a long time to come. And my Forge also gives me Orcs.
And it's not that you can't produce Orcs anymore if you lvl your armories, so I'm not worried about it ;)