Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[Aeva]

Going forward makes you worse. Terrible design.

I agree. And live I stopped somewhere in chapter 15 without a wish to continue the techtree because I love tournaments and I want to score.
So it is not that I do not understand the frustration or share your vision.

My point is that it is logical that we are in a negative spiral and that it is not helping the mood of everybody if we all get depressed and quit or threaten to quit or are only negative. I do not believe that the devs will change their minds because it is not 'everybody' that does quit, it is a small group of topplayers. Which in itself is a pity.

If you want to have fun in this game the choices are:
1. stop at a certain point with the techtree and score very well in tournaments
2. be content with lower scores and keep developing in more chapters
3. do not read this thread 'cause you will get depressed

 

[Pauly7]

I and quite a few others disagree. The changes are so flawed that many are hanging on just for the hope that it will change, and if it doesn't they will not "make the best of it" they will quit.
I don't care that the KP rewards are lower. I don't care that the enemy troop mixes are harder.
I care that there is no path for me to take that makes my city better. That must be fixed.

With every major change some players will complain and threaten to quit, but this time I've actually lost 7 players from my 2 Live fellowships due to the tournament changes. Some top 100 scores too, all spenders.

Let me rephrase that:
14% of the players in my fellowships have quit the game due to the lack of progress incentives. Going forward makes you worse. Terrible design.

I'm "lucky" in that I haven't bought or placed many expansions & wonders compared to some, and I just finished chapter 15, but what now?

• Why should I go any further into chapter 16 than the advanced scouts?
• Why should I place my expansions?
• Why should I fight on the world map to earn expansions that I shouldn't place?
• Why should I upgrade my wonders?
• Why should I.... play?

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I agree that measures to make the tournaments harder or easier or whatever they wanted to do was all fine. (If I'm honest I think maybe they've made it too easy at the bottom end as the first 7 or 8 provinces are now really hard to lose in, but meh). None of it matters because it's the same for everyone and this we can make the best of. Some people (a lot of people) now earn less KP, but that's all fine. We adjust and carry on.

However, creating a system which is so flawed is beyond belief. It happened though. What is impossible to reconcile in my mind is how the devs can just ignore hundreds of pages of analysis from players explaining exactly why it is so flawed. They have now turned the game into something that makes absolutely no sense. All advancement is now punished. The game is broken. Is it just that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong, so they've just gone with the old fingers-in-the-ears-whilst-singing-lalalala defence?

So many loyal players are now disillusioned with this game and they have been steadily leaving since its implementation. Someone might have said this already today, but in many cases the only thing keeping people here is the hope that they will see the error of their ways and it will change. It doesn't change so more leave. That's only going to snowball as others start to leave because their friends and competitors are no longer here.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

I don't have 4, but yeah I got a province expansions as well that I am not willing to place.

I have 7, and counting

 

[SoggyShorts]

If you want to have fun in this game the choices are:
1. stop at a certain point with the techtree and score very well in tournaments
2. be content with lower scores and keep developing in more chapters
3. do not read this thread 'cause you will get depressed

4. Keep this discussion going in the hopes that 101 pages of analysis and begging will get the devs attention even if 100 pages did not.

It's insane. Months ago it was stated that every advancement would increase costs and therefore reduce your progress but the benefit of those advancements would always outweigh the cost increase.
After this was proven to be inaccurate the logical move was to not launch this on live until it was addressed.

Even now they would be better off rolling it back and simply removing expansions, AW levels, and relics from the equation leaving only mandatory techs researched as a factor.

I fear that @Pauly7 may be correct and that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong.
It took almost 5 years for them to even acknowledge that a 16:1 recommended trading ratio based on supplies input was deeply flawed, and we gave them loads of evidence and analysis for that too.

 

[Pauly7]

It took almost 5 years for them to even acknowledge that a 16:1 recommended trading ratio based on supplies input was deeply flawed, and we gave them loads of evidence and analysis for that too.

Hey, we got there in the end. Is that hope?

 

[Aeva]

4. Keep this discussion going in the hopes that 101 pages of analysis and begging will get the devs attention even if 100 pages did not.

It's insane. Months ago it was stated that every advancement would increase costs and therefore reduce your progress but the benefit of those advancements would always outweigh the cost increase.
After this was proven to be inaccurate the logical move was to not launch this on live until it was addressed.

Even now they would be better off rolling it back and simply removing expansions, AW levels, and relics from the equation leaving only mandatory techs researched as a factor.

I fear that @Pauly7 may be correct and that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong.
It took almost 5 years for them to even acknowledge that a 16:1 recommended trading ratio based on supplies input was deeply flawed, and we gave them loads of evidence and analysis for that too.

I know that. Been around for a while. And I agree that it is gross that nobody listens.
But I do also think that the negativity costs a lot of fun and therefor it now is a factor in players leaving, which it should not be.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Eh, the tournament is better from my viewpoint in my chapter 17 Live city. I have done 5k+ points every week since the update, and that 5k has been easier for me to get too. And my current Live fellowship is getting 11-13 chests every week since the update, so all of us are happy with it.

 

[Aeva]

Eh, the tournament is better from my viewpoint in my chapter 17 Live city. I have done 5k+ points every week since the update, and that 5k has been easier for me to get too. And my current Live fellowship is getting 11-13 chests every week since the update, so all of us are happy with it.

In my live city I stopped at chapter 15 with the tech, but my tournamentscore is also still the same: 9K+. I had to adapt though.
I think it is a problem that some of the big guns feel they have been cheated out of their game, but I also think most players are happy with the new tournaments.

 

[Pauly7]

None of this is about how easy or hard the point scoring is.. or at least it shouldn't be. Yes, I can imagine that 5k is easier to come by. Our fellowship scores more points than it used to. Personally I find a 10k score only a little bit more difficult than it used to be. 10k is possibly about as tough as the old 12k.

I find it counter-productive when people talk about difficulty. Whether you find it easier or harder right now, whether your team scores more points, whether you find it more fun... none of that should matter. Everyone should realise that progression will make everything harder, and understand the severity of that problem because this game is now a ticking time bomb.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Eh, the tournament is better from my viewpoint in my chapter 17 Live city. I have done 5k+ points every week since the update, and that 5k has been easier for me to get too. And my current Live fellowship is getting 11-13 chests every week since the update, so all of us are happy with it.

You're missing the big picture:

What now?
What is the point of you doing anything with your city? Add KP to your wonders and earn more expansions so that those 5k points get just a little bit harder to achieve every single week? Why?

I absolutely love the new tournament because of the 4 in 1 making it so fast. I would have gladly lost 50% of my ability in the tournament for that if I had to.---but that's not the point.

The point is I won't do better. This is it. It only goes downhill from here. Sure I can make some minor improvements maxing out my Monastery, needles and a few others, but that ends and then every other move I make makes my city worse. Lame.

 

[Lovec Krys]

I fear that @Pauly7 may be correct and that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong.

My bet is that it is not pride, but someone's job is dependant of not admiting it's wrong. (this is often happening with managers or other leading persons: when they make a bad decision, they keep pretending that it was a good one, because they could loose their job for their bad decision(s))
So we have to wait at least until (probably longer, but that's the minimum) that responsible person is no longer in danger of losing his job or someone else become responsible.
It can also be like in other games - chain of bad decisions lowering their player base and income over time, but not enough for them to change that direction.

 

[PaNonymeB]

Perhaps the devs actually believe what they say. After all, they are not able to properly count event quests and days.

 

[Pauly7]

The depressing thing is I think they do believe what they say. There are many app-based games out there that appear to be fundamentally flawed and they're set up that way on purpose. I know a particular tennis game that is wildly popular. It has tens of millions of downloads, but if you read the reviews every one is the same. People complain that, whilst it is a fun game, there is no point continuing to play it once you realise that the only way to stay competitive is to spend money to make a small advancement and then to continue spending money. Spending once does no good. It only gives you an edge for just a few games then it gets more difficult again. The only people that get ahead are those that never stop spending.

This is quite a common formula for app games: i.e. attract big numbers of people to the game and rely on them spending, spending, spending, until they realise the futility and move on, making way for the next wave of people. If you can maintain a high enough turnover of players then there is a lot of money to be made and no one really worries about the sharp end - the end game - because no one has stuck around for that long.

So, sadly for us, it is likely that they don't care about how many people are realising the flaws in the game in terms of not being able to advance. They are happy for all the end-game players to quit, so long as that number is surpassed by the numbers of new players logging in to the game and spending money.

 

[edeba]

I and quite a few others disagree. The changes are so flawed that many are hanging on just for the hope that it will change, and if it doesn't they will not "make the best of it" they will quit.
I don't care that the KP rewards are lower. I don't care that the enemy troop mixes are harder.
I care that there is no path for me to take that makes my city better. That must be fixed.

With every major change some players will complain and threaten to quit, but this time I've actually lost 7 players from my 2 Live fellowships due to the tournament changes. Some top 100 scores too, all spenders.

Let me rephrase that:
14% of the players in my fellowships have quit the game due to the lack of progress incentives. Going forward makes you worse. Terrible design.

I'm "lucky" in that I haven't bought or placed many expansions & wonders compared to some, and I just finished chapter 15, but what now?

• Why should I go any further into chapter 16 than the advanced scouts?
• Why should I place my expansions?
• Why should I fight on the world map to earn expansions that I shouldn't place?
• Why should I upgrade my wonders?
• Why should I.... play?

I almost deleted my beta city yesterday...

 

[edeba]

However, creating a system which is so flawed is beyond belief. It happened though. What is impossible to reconcile in my mind is how the devs can just ignore hundreds of pages of analysis from players explaining exactly why it is so flawed. They have now turned the game into something that makes absolutely no sense. All advancement is now punished. The game is broken. Is it just that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong, so they've just gone with the old fingers-in-the-ears-whilst-singing-lalalala defence?

Go read the company information page. They describe themselves as a company with "integrity." It seems an exercise in redefining the dictionary because it is actually highly deceitful to take what people went to jobs, worked their butts off to earn money, and spent it on this game that with rewriting lines of code grossly negated the value and benefit of those purchases. It is highly deceitful and inno is on par with tobacco companies in the deceit and deception department.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Eh, the tournament is better from my viewpoint in my chapter 17 Live city. I have done 5k+ points every week since the update, and that 5k has been easier for me to get too. And my current Live fellowship is getting 11-13 chests every week since the update, so all of us are happy with it.

The point is now how easy or how difficult it is, but that there is a great incentive not to develop your city.
Every other complaint is irrelevant but when progression is detrimental the game is broken.

 

[edeba]

4. Keep this discussion going in the hopes that 101 pages of analysis and begging will get the devs attention even if 100 pages did not.

I fear that @Pauly7 may be correct and that they are too proud to admit that they have got it wrong.
It took almost 5 years for them to even acknowledge that a 16:1 recommended trading ratio based on supplies input was deeply flawed, and we gave them loads of evidence and analysis for that too.

OMG... that really was a simple thing, but wow, did it take a long, long time to respond.

What now?
What is the point of you doing anything with your city? Add KP to your wonders and earn more expansions so that those 5k points get just a little bit harder to achieve every single week? Why?

I absolutely love the new tournament because of the 4 in 1 making it so fast. I would have gladly lost 50% of my ability in the tournament for that if I had to.---but that's not the point.

The point is I won't do better. This is it. It only goes downhill from here. Sure I can make some minor improvements maxing out my Monastery, needles and a few others, but that ends and then every other move I make makes my city worse. Lame.

Grossly lame.

The increase in difficulty is way too steep and the penalties for adding expansions and AW levels is way too high. They've double counted. Basically to place a new AW you remove choices over about the 1 expansion the AW takes, and if you then also place an expansion for space for it, you are being penalized for and expansion plus an AW level.

Before the highly deceptive and reprehensible action of stealing the game value you invested with the money you spent: the terms in which the expansion were purchased was that they didn't make anything more difficult. In that environment I didn't think an AW should ever be placed unless you immediately worked on getting it to level 6.

They need to removed the penalty for premium expansions from the formula and do something like only AW levels above the chapter you are in count. The starting troops increase way too fast with how they've done the formula.

What Inno has done with game purchases is not any different than the sociopaths that thought it was ok to break my car windows and help themselves to what was in my car, or the sociopaths that thought it was ok to break down my door to my home and take items that I had paid for. This isn't any different at all; it totally acting without thinking about how others will be affected, and it goes beyond that, with hundreds of pages of people saying how it affected them and all ignored. The tournament changes are a gross violation of the conditions that extremely expensive expansions were purchased. I don't feel any less violated than how I felt with those people committing crimes against me.

 

[Jammin]

... it is what it is. Nothing is going to change.

Something will change.
Please be patient and try not to make too big mistakes until then.

There are ways to continue the tournament successfully.
Unfortunately the research after Chapter 15 is now a step backwards. This issue will take some time to fix, first the insight must mature.
In the meantime try taking countermeasures, optimizing, figuring out what makes you better and being patient.

Somewhere in this chaos INNO sees money, I don't see it, I think this is a self-destructive concept and it will take time for those responsible to feel it themselves.

 

[GrayEyes]

I haven’t played a tournament for a month now because it’s already impossible with my city in live server.
I open my 8x6 and go to play another game.

 

[galrond]

I haven’t played a tournament for a month now because it’s already impossible with my city in live server.
I open my 8x6 and go to play another game.

It may be a lot less, then you´re used to, but 8X6 is also playing the tournament
Most of the criticism against the tournament is focused on, what it have done to the big players.
There´s nothing wrong or unexpected in that. After all it´s fair to assume, that ppl. writing on beta forum are the most dedicated players.
The complaints against both SS-equation and difficuly increase are wellplaced.
You GET punished in tournament (and spire) for progressing your city.
But does anyone aside from the top 10-15% ever notice?
Most of the 100 pages in this tread so far, revolve around how bad/broken the tournament is towards topplayers.
But I think the average player is quite pleased with the new tournament:
-1 encounter instead of 4 (much faster to do tournament)(no "waste" because you couldn´t solve all encounters in a province)
- Much easier to do 6 rounds in low provinces = easier to make more points = easier to get 10 chests in FS
That doesn´t make SS-formular fair, but I don´t think the average player focus on that.
So selling the message about the flaws in new tournament, as "whole playerbase is raging, and treathen to quit" is way of target.