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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

galrond

Well-Known Member
Ugly tournaments, gentlemen, you have issued! You only gave the advantage to the pushers. Not for beginners! Those pushers who have pumped their wonders before your change can no longer be afraid that honest players will catch up in the rating. Pushers who are just starting out will easily bypass honest players. If your game is tailored specifically for players who violate the rules of the game, then change these rules of yours and legalize pushing. I have been playing for a long time, and it is because of pushing that I do not give you a dime from the head of the dwarfs. And I won't.
Your new tournament is rubbish. There are provinces, there is an army (more than 2000), but not to go through as before. Slow down what? Building miracles, passing technologies? No! We created another pushing problem. An ingenious move.
Besides from you being unhappy with new tournement, what do you intend to say?
I also get, that you don´t like pushing (no honest players do).
It might be due to moderators editing it, but the "pushers who have pumped their wonders" part, kind of sounds like you want more punishment on AW-levels o_O
I´m pretty sure, that´s NOT what you want.
Pushing has always been a problem. It will always be a problem, and I fail to see how the change in tournement makes any difference:rolleyes:
PS. "give a dime from the head of the dwarfes". I guess that´s a local saying. Where from? and any lore behind it?

Although we were able to get all 19 chests in the live server, the joy is more for having achieved them all than for the rewards received. With over 50% of the enemies being Heavy Melee, the marble one should be one of the easiest tournaments in the new cycle, so players can afford to go deeper even if the rewards are not worth it.
The problem is going to be when the hard tournaments arrive, especially the one based around the Mistwalker, where the rewards you can win in the chests will in no way exceed the amount of losses you will face. In those weeks there will be no motivation to risk so much just for 10 AW KP and 1 RS for each additional chest.
I just hope that in the same way that you did with the Spire, you will improve the quality of rewards that can be obtained in the 11-19 chests. This way many players, especially veterans, will stop feeling the shared frustration they have now in having to work harder to earn less than before.
I agree, that the rewards in chest 11-19 isn´t that impressive. If you aren´t from northern Jutland (Denmark), you would say: they totally, utterly, and in every possibly matter SUCKS!!!
It has nothing to do with the province type.
INNO changed the opponents back from totally random, to mimicing previous tournement.
Plz don´t blame them for listning (even if you don´t agree).
They should improve the rewards, and I hope they do.
Everyone hates a nerf. So in some twisted kind of way, it makes sense to start low, and then improve......
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
Although we were able to get all 19 chests in the live server, the joy is more for having achieved them all than for the rewards received. With over 50% of the enemies being Heavy Melee, the marble one should be one of the easiest tournaments in the new cycle, so players can afford to go deeper even if the rewards are not worth it.
The problem is going to be when the hard tournaments arrive, especially the one based around the Mistwalker, where the rewards you can win in the chests will in no way exceed the amount of losses you will face. In those weeks there will be no motivation to risk so much just for 10 AW KP and 1 RS for each additional chest.
I just hope that in the same way that you did with the Spire, you will improve the quality of rewards that can be obtained in the 11-19 chests. This way many players, especially veterans, will stop feeling the shared frustration they have now in having to work harder to earn less than before.
Maybe you are right, but before the rewards were even worse: nothing ;-)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Although we were able to get all 19 chests in the live server, the joy is more for having achieved them all than for the rewards received. With over 50% of the enemies being Heavy Melee, the marble one should be one of the easiest tournaments in the new cycle, so players can afford to go deeper even if the rewards are not worth it.
The problem is going to be when the hard tournaments arrive, especially the one based around the Mistwalker, where the rewards you can win in the chests will in no way exceed the amount of losses you will face. In those weeks there will be no motivation to risk so much just for 10 AW KP and 1 RS for each additional chest.
I just hope that in the same way that you did with the Spire, you will improve the quality of rewards that can be obtained in the 11-19 chests. This way many players, especially veterans, will stop feeling the shared frustration they have now in having to work harder to earn less than before.
The rate of increase in difficulty is too high and the penalty for upgrading AW and expansions in combination with the tech tree is too high. I noticed one long time, big spender, without a fellowship and he's decided that he is not participating in this new tournament. I thought someone in my FS said it very well,

"they kinda screwed the ones that spent most money which seems stupid. Why would you screw over your longest and best players for people who just started and might not play for long?"

So, I reconstructed numbers from my tournament. I made other suggestions for fixing the difficulty, but not based on the structure they are intent on using, so I have made another proposal based on the structure they are using.

I mildly reduced the starting increases. Keep in mind here that level six of a province has the same difficulty as 5 provinces later. So, province 10 starts with 110.4% difficulty, but by level 6 has a difficulty of 133.1%. With my proposal those would be 108.5% for level 1 and and 128.5% for level 6. So they have us hitting so everything is more difficult than the old tournament after province 22, and my proposal puts it at province 25, and instead of the difficulty increase being around 3.6% per province/level, my proposal suggests 3%. I would actually even go to 2% increase from province 38, which in my proposal is at around 200% difficulty. And I didn't gather data far enough, so 1% after 200%, so I'm changing this. So, I changed the color where I didn't gather the data, but was told the increase was 1% from there. I actually think 2% from 180% and 1% from 190% would be better. I don't think we should be hitting the 200% difficulty until province 50.

Prov/level1DifficultyDifficulty increaseProposed difficultyProposed difficulty increase
112.76%12.50%
225.35%12.59%25%12.50%
337.83%12.48%37.50%12.50%
450.45%12.62%50.00%12.50%
563.06%12.61%63%12.50%
675.66%12.60%75.00%12.50%
788.26%12.60%87.50%12.50%
897.06%8.80%96.00%8.50%
9105.82%8.76%104.50%8.50%
10110.35%4.53%108.50%4%
11114.90%4.55%112.50%4%
12119.44%4.54%116.50%4%
13124.00%4.56%120.50%4%
14128.52%4.52%124.50%4%
15133.06%4.54%128.50%4%
16137.61%4.55%132.50%4%
17141.20%3.59%135.50%3%
18144.78%3.58%138.50%3%
19148.38%3.60%141.50%3%
20151.98%3.60%144.50%3%
21155.59%3.60%147.50%3%
22159.19%3.61%150.50%3%
23162.80%3.61%153.50%3%
24166.39%3.59%156.50%3%
25170.00%3.61%159.50%3%
26173.57%3.57%162.50%3%
27177.17%3.60%165.50%3%
28180.78%3.60%168.50%3%
29184.38%3.60%171.50%3%
30187.98%3.60%174.50%3%
31191.59%3.61%177.50%3%
32195.19%3.60%180.50%3%
33198.79%3.61%183.50%3%
34202.40%1%186.50%3%
35203.40%1%189.50%2%
36204.40%1%191.50%2%
37205.40%1%193.50%2%
38206.40%1%195.50%2%
39207.40%1%197.50%2%
40208.40%1%199.50%1%
41209.40%1%200.50%1%
42210.40%1%201.50%1%
43211.40%1%202.50%1%
44212.40%1%203.50%1%
45213.40%1%204.50%1%

The penalty for the AW levels is too high, making the spread between the number of starting troops too big of a range. The coefficient needs to be reduced, or a strategy like only counting the higher of the two AW from a chapter, or not counting 1 level for each chapter you've done.

Paid expansions shouldn't be counted at all.

Maybe you are right, but before the rewards were even worse: nothing ;-)
Not true. Before I was able to get about 200 more kp and not slaughter my troops and goods for it. There were no extra chests before, but you could far more than what is in the chests.
 
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Deleted User - 89361

Guest
Maybe you are right, but before the rewards were even worse: nothing ;-)
Before you could win a lot of KP, relics, runes ands spells without losing a kidney. I am 'grateful' that at least they put up some chests to compensate for this, but the rewards they offer are not enough in tournaments with difficult enemy compositions. Improving the rewards of the new chests would compensate for the fact that you can no longer get the above-mentioned things in large quantities, because it would give you the feeling that the rewards are still there, only now they are being achieved in a different way. A way more based on the collective than on the individual as before.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Before you could win a lot of KP, relics, runes ands spells without losing a kidney.
What would be the equivalent name for medical malpractice for what they've done to the game? Nice analogy... What they've done is the equivalent of taking an organ.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
I mildly reduced the starting increases. Keep in mind here that level six of a province has the same difficulty as 5 provinces later. So, province 10 starts with 110.4% difficulty, but by level 6 has a difficulty of 133.1%. With my proposal those would be 108.5% for level 1 and and 128.5% for level 6. So they have us hitting so everything is more difficult than the old tournament after province 22, and my proposal puts it at province 25, and instead of the difficulty increase being around 3.6% per province/level, my proposal suggests 3%. I would actually even go to 2% increase from province 38, which in my proposal is at around 200% difficulty.
Earlier posts from @Dony said it was already 1% from province 34...
 
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Deleted User - 89361

Guest
What would be the equivalent name for medical malpractice for what they've done to the game? Nice analogy... What they've done is the equivalent of taking an organ.
I am not sure from a medical perspective, but from an economic point of view, the tournament suffered a devaluation for many players. Now you have to work harder to get the same or even less than before. For example, if before with 1000 squads you could make 15k points, now you can only make about 11k-12k. In return you get fancy chests with 10 AW KP and 1 RS. Also the "time reduction" from 4 encounters to 1 is a bit misleading. For those of us who played from our mobile phones it is no longer possible to do the tournament in depth in automatic as before. So yes, now you only have to do 1 encounter per province, but you also have to sit in front of a PC to fight manually from province number 20 onwards if you don't want to leave huge amounts of squads at the mercy of the randomness of the terrain. I consumed much more time this week than the previous ones, even making less score.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I am not sure from a medical perspective, but from an economic point of view, the tournament suffered a devaluation for many players. Now you have to work harder to get the same or even less than before. For example, if before with 1000 squads you could make 15k points, now you can only make about 11k-12k. In return you get fancy chests with 10 AW KP and 1 RS. Also the "time reduction" from 4 encounters to 1 is a bit misleading. For those of us who played from our mobile phones it is no longer possible to do the tournament in depth in automatic as before. So yes, now you only have to do 1 encounter per province, but you also have to sit in front of a PC to fight manually from province number 20 onwards if you don't want to leave huge amounts of squads at the mercy of the randomness of the terrain. I consumed much more time this week than the previous ones, even making less score.
I didn't do manual battle, but I used a grossly unsustainable amount of resources, and yes, for a much smaller score...
 

DeletedUser1953

Guest
Finally, i dislike the change, but to play, the most problem for me is that the capacity of HV is not linked to the cost of spire/tournament, on live, i have a city with full premium extension and the cost of gold/supply/orcs is insane, i think we need to apply the formula spire/tournament to the capacity of the HV, for orcs, i will add a lot of orc nest but for HV i can not do nothing !
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
I have already proposed the following in ideas and suggestions:
in chests 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, they could add a new building, which gives a 125% bonus to the attack of all troops for 5 days.
With this building, everyone would be satisfied, since most of the brotherhoods that fight are already arriving between chests 11-13, with which a week they would obtain 1 or 2 of these buildings = 50% more attack for the next week, which will lead them to score more points and possibly get to 15 or 17 chests, and with it get more of these buildings.
On the other hand, two of these buildings have the effect of a phoenix, increasing the attack of all troops by 50%.
Suddenly, you would end the punishment of expansions and levels of wonders, since you would be making it easier for the great warriors to continue fighting in tournaments for many points! And you'd put the new wonder to good use that gives you points for earned chests ...
I think it is one of the best solutions !!
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
That's a good bonus, and it would definitely increase everyone's tournament score, but it has nothing to do with ending the punishment of endgame players, even opposite - it give more opportunities for midgame players to overperform endgame ones.
Precisely for that reason, they have made these changes in the tournament, right? To make it easier for small mediums, to go up and earn more, with less difficulty, right? Well, if with this solution they at least help us the great ones ... it will be something positive, don't you think?

Let me explain ... if right now the players above have been severely punished, this would alleviate the punishment, and allow them to fight more ... the small or medium, it would help them as long as their brotherhood complies with those chests, and remember that have limited provinces ... while a player in chapter 16, has over 500 provinces minimum ... so no matter how much help these buildings give him 2x2 (attack bonus to all units 125% for 5 days) , they won't be able to go further than someone who has more provinces ... right?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
That won't help with disgusting situation that going through ch16 and 17 make your performance a lot worse than just sitting in ch15 and scouting more and more provinces... they even haven't made scouting faster, not a single positive change is waiting for you in last 2 chapters.
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
That won't help with disgusting situation that going through ch16 and 17 make your performance a lot worse than just sitting in ch15 and scouting more and more provinces... they even haven't made scouting faster, not a single positive change is waiting for you in last 2 chapters.
forgive me for correcting you, but having an expiring building that adds 125% to the attack of your troops, IF IT HELPS ... and if you have two, or three, or four ... you can already be in chapter 20 if you want, that WILL CONTINUE TO HELP YOU!
I understand your complaints, and I understand the change they have made that is not very balanced, but either we propose something logical and acceptable, or we will continue to eat this rubbish...
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
forgive me for correcting you, but having an expiring building that adds 125% to the attack of your troops, IF IT HELPS ... and if you have two, or three, or four ... you can already be in chapter 20 if you want, that WILL CONTINUE TO HELP YOU!
I understand your complaints, and I understand the change they have made that is not very balanced, but either we propose something logical and acceptable, or we will continue to eat this shit ...

You have to take into account you are fighting 1 vs 2 pretty fast (actually even a bit more then 2)
So maybe 10 vs 20 you can easily win with that booster, but if its 10.000 vs 20.000 your chances of winning are getting much smaller. Even with the boost building. especially since you are forced to fight against setups that counter every choice of units you choose.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
and if you have two, or three, or four ... you can already be in chapter 20 if you want, that WILL CONTINUE TO HELP YOU!
Doesn't matter how many of them you have, your opponents will have the same. Even if you have enough of them to oneshot any enemy, you anyway get hit by mistwalkers, and often by some other enemies (at least with autofight), and ch17 player is hurt by that hits way harder than ch15, especially if he has a lot of expansions and AW levels.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
forgive me for correcting you, but having an expiring building that adds 125% to the attack of your troops, IF IT HELPS ... and if you have two, or three, or four ... you can already be in chapter 20 if you want, that WILL CONTINUE TO HELP YOU!
I understand your complaints, and I understand the change they have made that is not very balanced, but either we propose something logical and acceptable, or we will continue to eat this rubbish...
Doesn't matter how many of them you have, your opponents will have the same. Even if you have enough of them to oneshot any enemy, you anyway get hit by mistwalkers, and often by some other enemies (at least with autofight), and ch17 player is hurt by that hits way harder than ch15, especially if he has a lot of expansions and AW levels.

To clarify:

Player vs enemy is always the same difficulty. no matter in whicht chapter you are the difference is the troops / goods you need to achieve that goal.

Lets say in chapter 15 you need to put 100 squads in a single fight and you loose 15%, this means you will loose 15 squads.
This makes sens I hope:

Now you advance your city to chapter 17, in the same time your chapter 15 accout trains 15 squads you now train 19 squads
But as a result you need to add not 100 squads in that same fight but 165 squads

165 sq * 15% = 25 squads

This means that my losses in the tournament outgrow my gains by advancing in this game
As my training capacity had grown from 15 to 19, my losses had grown from 15 to 25, so there is a net descrepancy.

This is the issue we are talking about. the things you gain by advancing in the game are negated by losses that are bigger than what you will gain.
This problem exist on many levels but becomes really prevalent after chapter 15. as from this chapter onwards the inly gain is in training speed, there are no longer ingame gains in the form of improved attack, HP or straight out unit improvements as all these factors stay the same between these chapters from when you unlock the frog prince untill the end of the latest addition with chapter 17. the only factor that changes is training speed.

*note that these numbers are fictional to show the concept behind the problem, the actual growth of both gain an losses can be different in absolute numbers, but the concept has been mathematically proven to be correct.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
To clarify:

Player vs enemy is always the same difficulty. no matter in whicht chapter you are the difference is the troops / goods you need to achieve that goal.

Lets say in chapter 15 you need to put 100 squads in a single fight and you loose 15%, this means you will loose 15 squads.
This makes sens I hope:

Now you advance your city to chapter 17, in the same time your chapter 15 accout trains 15 squads you now train 19 squads
But as a result you need to add not 100 squads in that same fight but 165 squads

165 sq * 15% = 25 squads

This means that my losses in the tournament outgrow my gains by advancing in this game
As my training capacity had grown from 15 to 19, my losses had grown from 15 to 25, so there is a net descrepancy.

This is the issue we are talking about. the things you gain by advancing in the game are negated by losses that are bigger than what you will gain.
This problem exist on many levels but becomes really prevalent after chapter 15. as from this chapter onwards the inly gain is in training speed, there are no longer ingame gains in the form of improved attack, HP or straight out unit improvements as all these factors stay the same between these chapters from when you unlock the frog prince untill the end of the latest addition with chapter 17. the only factor that changes is training speed.

*note that these numbers are fictional to show the concept behind the problem, the actual growth of both gain an losses can be different in absolute numbers, but the concept has been mathematically proven to be correct.
@CrazyWizard How realistic are the numbers that you are using. Did you use any game values for AW, expansions, etc.?
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
@CrazyWizard How realistic are the numbers that you are using. Did you use any game values for AW, expansions, etc.?

No, there are simply to many variables to take into consideration, they are concept based and not based on a direct comparison.
I took 15% as a show that a "low loss" can still lead to a significant difference..
But the difference between a lean, mean optimal ideal city with 150x+ less SS/costs then a decked out town who places every expansion and levels everything is a huge range.

For example: just playing the chapter, but NOT placing any of the 5 expansions and not placing / leveling the wonders makes a big influence difference.
Also how much each research adds depends on expansions / wonderlevels as they are multiplied with the research value.
if you multiply a factor by 5, 10 or 20 makes a huge difference.

btw I played battles with ~150 squads placed in it last week, soo 100 squads is not fiction, but I did not like the losses so I did not went further dan 150 squads in a single battle.
 
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