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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Since the original Beta release, several changes have been made (including bringing back flavor by making chances for certain units higher according to the type of tournament, splitting the training queues of units, changes to the battle difficulty at several times, reduction of premium expansion impact in the difficulty calculation etc).
You keep giving this list as what you did after our feedback, but below is a post of yours from Aug 4, which is before the tournament came in the international server :
And as always, these are the moments when you actually get some new things to share. Over the next couple of weeks, we will focus on these things:

  • Decreasing the chance for mana and orcs to appear in negotiation, plus slightly decreasing the chance of coins and supplies to appear here.
  • Reducing the impact expansions (both premium and regular) have on difficulty for both Tournaments and Spire. Because they also affect the Spire difficulty, these changes will probably be merged to Live sooner than the new tournaments (since we still need testing time for those).
  • Seperating the unit production queues so multiple unit training buildings can work simultaneously. This will probably take a bit more time than the rest.
We have no exact dates yet for the implementations, and these ideas are still subject to change pending investigations, but at least you know what our next topics are, aside from the whole general balancing issue which keeps being investigated. As always, please keep sharing your feedback, because as you can see that does help us make changes in certain directions.
Outside of the difficulty changes, all changes you did were either made before or listed in this post. And the difficulty changes are insignificant compared to how new tournaments changed the difficulty of fights. Hence the 103 pages of feedback made after this post (here and on international forum) were compeletely ignored. What was the point of testing and asking for feedback on EN and everything is ignored ?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
103 pages of feedback made after this post (here and on international forum) were compeletely ignored.

But how many posts were actually talking about the changes and how to do them better or differently? Your comment is #1822 and probably 1500-1600 of those previous comments were nothing more than complaining and ranting and nothing constructive. Quantity means nothing if there is no quality.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
But how many posts were actually talking about the changes and how to do them better or differently? Your comment is #1822 and probably 1500-1600 of those previous comments were nothing more than complaining and ranting and nothing constructive. Quantity means nothing if there is no quality.

at some point you have said all that can be said and only ranting is left :)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
But how many posts were actually talking about the changes and how to do them better or differently? Your comment is #1822 and probably 1500-1600 of those previous comments were nothing more than complaining and ranting and nothing constructive. Quantity means nothing if there is no quality.
Difficulty increase being too steep and the drastic difference in troop size because of how well developed a city is has been given and there have been a number of constructive suggestions for how to reasonably improve this.

They did make a change on the expansions, but made another problem worse in the process, so I did see a 6% reduction in starting troop size, but a teammate in chapter 15 didn't see any difference. There is an over 400% difference that you can see in starting troop size. If they just count 1 AW from each chapter/tech, and make it the higher of the two, is a suggestion that would fix that the penalty from AW levels is too high. Not counting AW up to the level of the chapter you are in is another suggestion. Making 10 AW levels per chapter not count is another, but this suggestion is inadequate.

Setting the tournament up so that in my case 70% is more difficult than what existed before is unreasonable. For some players it is 80-90% that is more difficult. How much that is more difficult is a function of how many provinces you have open.

If they did something like set a province at the higher range that people play to 200%, like say province 60 (instead of the about 300%), and work backwards from that, instead of 200% at province 33, it would still be a huge hit in difficulty, but a manageable difference. By manageable I don't mean that I would expect to get out to province 60, but maybe 45, which is still a slaughter of over 30%, but puts the game back in the range of expectation before perhaps they gave too much away with the birds and bears.

They've taken the tournament to a lesser position than when the 4 click tournament first came out and before all of the work making the city better. I went out 27 provinces on the very first old tournament and that was without much in game improvement.

This is as intended and Inno has the nerve call themselves a fair company with integrity? Players have invested time and energy and this is a drastic material change in what I've spent my money on and it isn't fair or reasonable, and it is totally lacking any kind of fair play or respect for players.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
What was expected ?
Recovery rate
They were tracking if cities can replenish their resources between tournaments (goods and army), after initial testing they were satisfied with results here on beta and then went to EN servers where more variety of cities are, i dont think they cared 1 bit about any feedback posted there, they went purely for data and data there showed again same results, they made some changes which directly reflect to this data, reduced coins/supplies/mana and orcs for negotiation, 3 queues for army production and some difficulty changes i guess for mobile users.
I dont think they worry about formula much as long as players are able to replenish their resources between tournaments its working as intended.
But i guess we have yet to see the biggest cities out there with max expansions and all wonders built how their recovery rate will looks like, thats why implying that some changes still can be made (which will reflect only recovery rate for those cities).
I can speak only for myself, but last 9 weeks i didnt used brown bears once (that also mean no time booster or supplies instant spent) and on some easy tournaments i had only lost 100 squads while made 400+ per week (with 3 queues), from that perspective data looks perfect. But i must admit that I am using those extra units which are useless for tournament for autofighting in spire now (i was negotiating everything there) and thus saving all resources there which will come handy soon enough.

I was hoping to the last moment that they will atleast announce that they will make AWs teleportable even if it will take a year to implement and let players decide what is enough for them and what is not.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I was hoping to the last moment that they will atleast announce that they will make AWs teleportable even if it will take a year to implement and let players decide what is enough for them and what is not.
This would at least be something, even if it came with a cooldown timer.
What to do with that Level XX BTG that is significantly hurting your tournament/spire and giving you zero benefit while you wait months for the next chapter release?
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
I was hoping to the last moment that they will atleast announce that they will make AWs teleportable even if it will take a year to implement and let players decide what is enough for them and what is not.
This would at least be something, even if it came with a cooldown timer.
I guess the discussion may be pointless now, but I'd been thinking about this issue. Obviously if someone could teleport an AW then it would take away a good piece of the anger about having spent so much time and KP only to see it burn down. The counter (not that Inno seems to comment) is that people would abuse it and teleport AWs out just before tournaments started.

So, as you say, they could think about a cooldown timer, but my thought was - What if AWs couldn't be teleported with a teleport spell. What if you had to spend a blueprint to teleport one into your inventory?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
I can speak only for myself, but last 9 weeks i didnt used brown bears once (that also mean no time booster or supplies instant spent) and on some easy tournaments i had only lost 100 squads while made 400+ per week (with 3 queues), from that perspective data looks perfect.
Doubt anyone on live servers have 2.4 fire phoenixes like you...
I have only 2 here, and too lazy to manual fight until 30+ province, but doubt I can sustain troops without using bears/instants despite of going a bit less far than you. From other side I have more than enough of instants from spire/MA to be in a good surplus in troops. But not sure that it would be enough if I decide to go to the end of tech tree, not talking about placing more expansions. With only one phoenix it would be even harder.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
I guess the discussion may be pointless now, but I'd been thinking about this issue. Obviously if someone could teleport an AW then it would take away a good piece of the anger about having spent so much time and KP only to see it burn down. The counter (not that Inno seems to comment) is that people would abuse it and teleport AWs out just before tournaments started.

But does one AW really makes that much difference for most people? To make a real dent in starting squad size, someone would have to get rid of several mid to high-level AWs. I don't know how the numbers are for other people, but in my end-game Live city, adding one AW level increases my starting Spire squad by about 7.5 troops. So getting rid of a level 10 AW only reduces my squad by about 75, which makes almost no difference at all for me. And since the first Spire fight is about equal to the 1st star of province 5 in the new tournament format, I know about what that would do for me in the new format as well. Not much at all. I really do not know how many AW levels I would have to remove just to make a real difference in my Live city.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
This would at least be something, even if it came with a cooldown timer.
What to do with that Level XX BTG that is significantly hurting your tournament/spire and giving you zero benefit while you wait months for the next chapter release?
Watch it, I like my bee. I buy goods with excess coin and supplies and the higher the bee, the more you get. That is hardly a zero benefit.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
But does one AW really makes that much difference for most people?
Well every little helps. Perhaps, if you could, you'd decide to teleport away 5 of those AWs. Then you could decide for yourself if losing their benefit was a mistake without it being final... or maybe you would bring it back at a later date when your situation changed. It would be so much more palatable than blowing up a building that you've sunk 10,000KP into. With my blueprint idea you'd still have to think long and hard about whether you want to do it and no one would be able to play the game of pulling AWs in and out of their city at will. Also, I expect that it would be easier to code a change that made the blueprint capable of that than it would be to devise a long-term cool-down timer that would have to run in the background on objects in your inventory.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Watch it, I like my bee. I buy goods with excess coin and supplies and the higher the bee, the more you get. That is hardly a zero benefit.
Not to derail the topic, but
1. I'm pretty sure that using coins for KP is more efficient than using coins to buy goods and then converting those goods through the tournament into KP.
Maybe I'm wrong though: What is the best offer in your wholesaler for coins, and how much does your next KP cost for coins?

2. An efficient city should only very rarely have excess supplies, it should make as many as it uses. If having excess supplies is a regular thingit's probably more efficient to reduce workshops and increase goods production directly rather than going through the wholesaler.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Excess supplies production helps a lot with burning time instants from spire into troops using brown bears.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Not to derail the topic, but
1. I'm pretty sure that using coins for KP is more efficient than using coins to buy goods and then converting those goods through the tournament into KP.
Maybe I'm wrong though: What is the best offer in your wholesaler for coins, and how much does your next KP cost for coins?

2. An efficient city should only very rarely have excess supplies, it should make as many as it uses. If having excess supplies is a regular thingit's probably more efficient to reduce workshops and increase goods production directly rather than going through the wholesaler.
T1 I get 13k of goods for 1350k and I am in chapter 10. Currently my marble manufacturer makes 2668/3hrs. Right now 1 kp costs 1420k.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
2. An efficient city should only very rarely have excess supplies, it should make as many as it uses. If having excess supplies is a regular thingit's probably more efficient to reduce workshops and increase goods production directly rather than going through the wholesaler.
That's not necessarily such a simple thing to manage when you're a Spire negotiator. My Live city runs at a nice stable level to give me enough supplies to run all my buildings, the three training queues and my Spire negotiations... As soon as we reach Thursday/Friday/Saturday though, my supplies are instantly bouncing off the roof.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Excess supplies production helps a lot with burning time instants from spire into troops using brown bears.
That's not excess supplies, that's supplies being used.
T1 I get 13k of goods for 1350k and I am in chapter 10. Currently my marble manufacturer makes 2668/3hrs. Right now 1 kp costs 1420k.
And how much would it cost to cater enough extra encounters to get KP?
1350 and 1420 are pretty close, so
13K goods x5 = 65K goods.
Is 65K T1 enough for you to cater province #(whatever is next) 2 times so you can get 5kp?

If it's a tie, or even close, then I'm wrong since tournament gives KP + some stuff whereas buying KP just gives..KP. :p
That's not necessarily such a simple thing to manage when you're a Spire negotiator. My Live city runs at a nice stable level to give me enough supplies to run all my buildings, the three training queues and my Spire negotiations... As soon as we reach Thursday/Friday/Saturday though, my supplies are instantly bouncing off the roof.
Fair enough, I hadn't actually considered negotiating the spire.
Personally, I prefer to underproduce supplies and use instants or PoP to make up the very rare slack.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
And how much would it cost to cater enough extra encounters to get KP?
1350 and 1420 are pretty close, so
13K goods x5 = 65K goods.
Is 65K T1 enough for you to cater province #(whatever is next) 2 times so you can get 5kp?

If it's a tie, or even close, then I'm wrong since tournament gives KP + some stuff whereas buying KP just gives..KP. :p
AfEXdNQ--rsdaUUkqcKSMHnFXG_1gztn1DP3EBfQjz4YOn7qwU20zqfk6VzqTuo2V0dWMktIUVtUuLxV9CjkoFLzrgpd15NUSixjDN9fATRHVGot_I4yMtoChJV3gNYK7ZH6eXSU

This was province 32 level 1. I went out too far this last tournament, but I had optimism that maybe they'd rethought about the degree of tournament nerf.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
That's not excess supplies, that's supplies being used.
They are not used outside the timespan when bears are fed +-1 day for recovering after/preparing before => half of the time they are excess supplies. But that won't convince me to build BTG anyway. =)
Personally, I prefer to underproduce supplies and use instants or PoP to make up the very rare slack.
I don't even think about using workshops without PoP when planning supplies income.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
@edeba
Interesting.
So, you need 68,000 goods to cater 1 star, and let's say 68,000 for the second star. *
That's ten trips to the wholesaler, and you win 5KP, a PoP, and some relics.
or
Instead, you could just buy 10 KP directly.

*Considering that the second star is almost certainly more than the first, and that the T2&T3 goods don't trade at 1:1 with T1, the cost of converting coins into KP through the wholesaler looks to be even wors:efrown:
 
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