Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[DeletedUser1953]

Exponential, lol, the T2 upgrade, 27 -> 28 reduce the production by 25%/case if you take into account the cost of pop/culture.
The armory problem exists already from 2 chapters, you see only the production but you need to taken into account the cost of pop/culture, you need to calculate the prod/case. The game accumulates problems from some time (the problem of catering cost in tournament began at the sorcerer for example before this correction, the number of armories becomes absurd, ... !).

 

[ErestorX]

I didn't do any calculations with population, culture and supplies, but if you just look at orcs per square then it looks exponential with one chapter having been "forgotten".

Yes, the Orc production has been adjusted and is no problem anymore. But I get more than enough Orcs from my 43 armories, I have more than 9 Million to spare. I built the armories for longer production queues because of the shrooms. For that purpose 31 is still the sweet spot.

 

[galrond]

R = 0.3994 × (1+B) × (1.0045)^T × (1+0.003A) × (E - 0.34P - 4.5)

The wonderlevels (A) (and especially expansions (E)) carry great weight to the SS (R) of a "hardcore" endgame tournament highscorer, due to their wast amount. But the impact of a single wonderlevel or expansion deminishes with city size.
I´ll use my own live cities as an example:

City A: 116 expansions and 116 wonderlevels (coincidence)(I can´t remember how many of expansions are premium, so set to 0)
+1 wonderlevel:
(1+0,003*117)/(1+0,003*116)=1,0022255
+1 expansion:
(117-4,5)/(116-4,5)=1,0089686

City B: 70 expansions and 32 wonderlevels
+1 wonderlevel:
(1+0,003*33)/(1+0,003*32)=1,0027372
+1 expansion:
(71-4,5)/(70-4,5)=1,0152671

So getting the space and building the Mountain Hall (or any other AW) will have a WAY bigger % impact on my small city (I will have to build relatively more troops to do the same tournament encounters).
Mandatory research (T) have the same impact on all cities (0,45%).
Max. production boost from relics (B), have a big % impact on small cities, but soon becomes a constant.
I must admit, that I don´t understand, how the formular should favor small/mid cities in any way
Not using your space in the best way, building the wrong AWs and so on, is a block around the leg of a "hardcore" tournament player. But it´s an even heavier block around the leg of a smaller player
The formular DOES favor those, who have their AW-levels gathered on a few highlevel AWs, rather than divided on many lowlevel AWs. But that fall under "not using your space in the best way".
Plz don´t get me wrong: I´m glad, that the formular don´t favor small cities Just don´t claim that it does
PS. I´m fully aware, that many ppl would have made other choises regarding their city, if they had known the formular back then.
PPS. I´m NOT saying, that I agree with the scaleing of the formular (nor the scaleing in difficulty between provinces, for that matter). I´m only saying, that it don´t favor small/mid players over big players.

 

[PaNonymeB]

R = 0.3994 × (1+B) × (1.0045)^T × (1+0.003A) × (E - 0.34P - 4.5)

The wonderlevels (A) (and especially expansions (E)) carry great weight to the SS (R) of a "hardcore" endgame tournament highscorer, due to their wast amount. But the impact of a single wonderlevel or expansion deminishes with city size.
I´ll use my own live cities as an example:

City A: 116 expansions and 116 wonderlevels (coincidence)(I can´t remember how many of expansions are premium, so set to 0)
+1 wonderlevel:
(1+0,003*117)/(1+0,003*116)=1,0022255
+1 expansion:
(117-4,5)/(116-4,5)=1,0089686

City B: 70 expansions and 32 wonderlevels
+1 wonderlevel:
(1+0,003*33)/(1+0,003*32)=1,0027372
+1 expansion:
(71-4,5)/(70-4,5)=1,0152671

So getting the space and building the Mountain Hall (or any other AW) will have a WAY bigger % impact on my small city (I will have to build relatively more troops to do the same tournament encounters).
Mandatory research (T) have the same impact on all cities (0,45%).
Max. production boost from relics (B), have a big % impact on small cities, but soon becomes a constant.
I must admit, that I don´t understand, how the formular should favor small/mid cities in any way
Not using your space in the best way, building the wrong AWs and so on, is a block around the leg of a "hardcore" tournament player. But it´s an even heavier block around the leg of a smaller player
The formular DOES favor those, who have their AW-levels gathered on a few highlevel AWs, rather than divided on many lowlevel AWs. But that fall under "not using your space in the best way".
Plz don´t get me wrong: I´m glad, that the formular don´t favor small cities Just don´t claim that it does
PS. I´m fully aware, that many ppl would have made other choises regarding their city, if they had known the formular back then.
PPS. I´m NOT saying, that I agree with the scaleing of the formular (nor the scaleing in difficulty between provinces, for that matter). I´m only saying, that it don´t favor small/mid players over big players.

But actually, adding an expansion will also have a much bigger % impact on production on a small city than on a large city...

 

[ErestorX]

But the impact of a single wonderlevel or expansion deminishes with city size.

The impact of an additional expansion is indeed lower for cities with more expansions. But the impact of an additional wonderlevel does not. It diminishes with the number of wonderlevels you already have.

 

[galrond]

The impact of an additional expansion is indeed lower for cities with more expansions. But the impact of an additional wonderlevel does not. It diminishes with the number of wonderlevels you already have.

That was what I meant, but I can see it can be misunderstood

 

[Karvest]

Main complains are that impact of additional expansion is affected by number of wonderlevels and vice versa.
For a city with 116 expansions and 116 wonderlevels adding one more wonderlevel would have much bigger impact than for the same city, but "small", with 70 expansions.
(116-4.5)/(70-4.5)*(1+0,003*117)/(1+0,003*116)=1.706
if the "big" city has gone further in tech tree - difference is even bigger.
And those additional expansions are not really needed for fighter's city. (I have 115 now, and I'm pretty sure, if I could get rid of that 40 expansions, I'd still be able to produce the same amount of troops, but have a lot smaller costs in tourney/spire).

 

[edeba]

O.k. so 10 seed hybrids should be at least 3-4% of your city, right? And each day, you save 4,8% of your seeds from decay. So the towers schould boost your city by around 0,14% to 0,19% which translate into a factor of around 0,0001 per level. That is indeed a lot lower than the 0,003 penalty from the formula. So this constant is indeed completely wrong for the sunset towers.

The formula is wrong all the way through.

I did just check it on eventbuildings like the orcnest or the orc ship and it does indeed scale exponentially with chapter. But only by around 11% to 12% per chapter not 20% like culture and population do. And there is a noticable drop to 10% going from chapter 15 to 16. So you are right, there is a problem here.

So the formula for the AW grossly overstates their benefit, and then land value is being hit because of the nerf on keeping the relative ratio for the event buildings as it has been until chapter 16. AW level benefits are also nerfed.

just do the maths for armories and cry

It is insane.

Exponential, lol, the T2 upgrade, 27 -> 28 reduce the production by 25%/case if you take into account the cost of pop/culture.
The armory problem exists already from 2 chapters, you see only the production but you need to taken into account the cost of pop/culture, you need to calculate the prod/case. The game accumulates problems from some time (the problem of catering cost in tournament began at the sorcerer for example before this correction, the number of armories becomes absurd, ... !).

There are all kinds of places where the number don't work. I played a game tight on the armories, so that one chapter nerf hit hard. I think most players had accumulated tons of extra orcs so it didn't bring much attention in beta. Inno made a small adjustment so you could no longer say you were getting less orcs/square compared to before the "upgrade," but it did not have a percentage growth, so compared to everything else, it was a huge nerf.

 

[spennyit]

So, another unuseful week of testing with no changes :-(

 

[maxiqbert]

I'd like to add that for our evolution to be exponential, you'd need everything to be exponential without any exception. And for the formula to be anywhere near right, we would need everything to be exponential with AT LEAST the same rate than the tournament costs x natural expansions x natural growth of AW (yes this exists, counting 135 kps each week).
In the current situation our growth isn't exponential at all (no orc exponential growth, no mana exponential growth), so the formula is broken. Claiming otherwise is just looking thought deforming lenses. And claiming your wonders always benefit you more than they cost is just a pure lie.

 

[Dl. Goe]

Just a thought about playing around with the new SS formula:

Has anyone tried, especially end chapters players, to get rid of all relics that brig production bonus?

If the formula is right, the SS contraction is massive, while end chapter players should have enough standard goods, for a while at least…and is not such a radical option like destroying ancient wonders (at least easier to reverse).

 

[ErestorX]

Has anyone tried, especially end chapters players, to get rid of all relics that brig production bonus?

I would need to get rid of more than 60000 relics for t1-t3 alone, unfortunately there has been no opportunity lately. But I started a chapter 8 city with a lot of event buildings that produce goods. Only 1000 relics to get rid of there... Also only 3 wonders with 22 levels to delete.

 

[Dl. Goe]

I’m really keen to find out if the formula checks in such scenario, because my live city is at the end of chap 16, some reserves in standard goods and, fortunately for me, I have only 2-3 k relics, for each commodity.

LE: basically it means a transfer of production bonus to a SS reduction bonus, at a rate of 1:1; if it is true, I think it’s useful…and everyone will run after a panda bear in the end

 

[Dony]

I’m really keen to find out if the formula checks in such scenario, because my live city is at the end of chap 16, some reserves in standard goods and, fortunately for me, I have only 2-3 k relics, for each commodity.

LE: basically it means a transfer of production bonus to a SS reduction bonus, at a rate of 1:1; if it is true, I think it’s useful…and everyone will run after a panda bear in the end J

removing relics boost will leads to exactly 7,3 times cheaper tournament/spire in chapter 16

 

[Dl. Goe]

Precisely 8 times, I suppose, but it’s close…it’s 1+7 compared to 1+0

 

[little bee]

In the current situation our growth isn't exponential at all (no orc exponential growth, no mana exponential growth), so the formula is broken. Claming otherwise is just looking thought deforming lenses. And claiming your wonders always benefit you more than they cost is just a pure lie.

The most efficient orc per square come from event buildings like the orc nest. And as I have already stated they do scale exponentially with 10% to 12% per chapter. Mana was actually scaling with 30% per chapter until chapter 14 and was then put on hold. So yes, there is a problem with the constants, but this is clearly intended to be exponential growth.

 

[ErestorX]

If you have twices as much space for production or you can produce twices as effitiently per square then the Mountain Hall becomes twice as usefull.
If the benefit of the wonder is multiplicative then why shoulden't the cost be?

Sorry, when I gave you some numbers concerning the value of the mountain hall in my city adapted to the new tournament I forgot to give a more general answer to this question.

The mountain hall is indeed one of the best wonders for somebody who is catering all tournament provinces. But the added cost because of mountain hall levels doesn't only affect catering but fighting as well. But it doesn't have much effect on fighting. It is the same for all those great wonders for fighters, building them still helps a lot to fight more provinces, but unfortunately increases the cost of catering a lot without giving any advantages with respect to catering.

You can find more examples for this kind of problem. E.g. expansions are multiplicative with respect to goods and supplies and Orcs, but not for gold, mana and troops. Yes, the gold from residences scales fine with space, but it is only a minor source of gold income. The majority of the gold income is from abyss and giving neighbourly help and that doesn't scale with expansions. Same for mana, the main mana income is from dragon abbey and that doesn't scale with space.

 

[maxiqbert]

The most efficient orc per square come from event buildings like the orc nest. And as I have already stated they do scale exponentially with 10% to 12% per chapter. Mana was actually scaling with 30% per chapter until chapter 14 and was then put on hold. So yes, there is a problem with the constants, but this is clearly intended to be exponential growth.

exponential with exceptions isn't exponential, right?

 

[palmira]

I am so thrilled to know this meager increase in seed production is an exponential growth. It seems old age as muddled my math skills and I don't even recognize an exponential after decades adjusting decays with exponentials, Quite bizarrely, it seems excel doesn't recognize an exponential growth anywhere for instances in orc production in armories anyway I put it, by chapter, by square production in chapter, you choose. I think I will try origin when I get my Origin version for Mac because Excel is probably affected by old age too and only sees linear growth with a not so bad r^2.

 

[little bee]

exponential with exceptions isn't exponential, right?

Exponential with exceptions can still be faster than exponential. Take the mana sawmill as an example. It produces 720 Mana in chapter 9. With a perfect exponential growth of 20% per chapter it should give 2580 Mana in chapter 16, but it does in fact give 3500.

The mountain hall is indeed one of the best wonders for somebody who is catering all tournament provinces. But the added cost because of mountain hall levels doesn't only affect catering but fighting as well. But it doesn't have much effect on fighting. It is the same for all those great wonders for fighters, building them still helps a lot to fight more provinces, but unfortunately increases the cost of catering a lot without giving any advantages with respect to catering.

You can find more examples for this kind of problem. E.g. expansions are multiplicative with respect to goods and supplies and Orcs, but not for gold, mana and troops. Yes, the gold from residences scales fine with space, but it is only a minor source of gold income. The majority of the gold income is from abyss and giving neighbourly help and that doesn't scale with expansions. Same for mana, the main mana income is from dragon abbey and that doesn't scale with space.

I think it is fair to have a formula that assumes players use mostly a mix of fighting and catering and build the wonders that fit their playing style. If a player caters 10% of the tournament then a 10% boost to his catering ability would translate into a 1% boost to his tournament strenghth. This is still multiplicative, it just affects the constant.
From what I know most players mostly fight in the tournament. And therefore I think that the current penalty of 0,003 per wonder level is to high for most non-fighting wonders; possibly even for the abyss. I would like to see this constant lowered to acomodate not just the average, but also the less usefull wonders. But I still do not see anything inherently wrong with having such a constant on principal.

I also think that gold from neighbourly help should usually scale well with expansions. It does scale with both discovered neighbours and with main hall upgrades. The main hall should scale exponentially with research and discovered neighbours scales faster than available expansions.
The abyss and dragon abbey are wonders and I don't think they should be considered twice. Mana from culture buildings does scale fine with expansions.

@palmira Seeds do indeed fail to scale exponentially, but they are an exception in this regard. They don't appear in the tournament and maybe they should be removed from the spire as well.