Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[edeba]

Ok, so six weeks into this disaster and my beta game is obviously declining in goods, not exceptionally fast, but what I am doing is utterly not sustainable. Before the changes I was far more competitive and for this level of resource burn I did better in the tournament overall.

My orcs are totally stripped. In my live game I was playing only 2 or 3 barracks when I was in this chapter. I've just gone from 7 to 8 plus I have 6 orc strategies because my orcs have been declining, and to the point that I'm going run out so serious adjustments are needed. And my hero's forge is at level 14, which in this chapter give the same number of orcs as 2.5 more armories.

I've been burning supply instants at a terrible rate, so even though the goods are going down, I put away manufacturers and put out workshops.

It has convinced me to get the mercenary camp improvements and to go for the AW which will give me the flying academy.

But, I am not so sure I want to complicate the orc nightmare with a mana nightmare, so I will probably just park there and see how it goes for a few months.

 

[guivou]

another example of complex fight for chapter 3 city without boost .... 4 types of 2* ennemy (round 4 province 7)

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

another example of complex fight for chapter 3 city without boost .... 4 types of 2* ennemy (round 4 province 7)
View attachment 7885

Yes, that is still fairly common, but the fights with all five different troop types were reduced greatly after that was adjusted for.

 

[galrond]

not easy when you encounter 1 knight, 2 orc strategist, 1 dryad (or mist walker ?), 1 enchantress (all 2*) when you have only 1* troups , with same squad size (province 7 round 2)

How did you reach province 7, and only have 1* troops?
Besides from that, I think, that you´ll gotten your ass kicked in the old system too.

 

[Steelhail]

My understanding is that the "AW penalty" in the tournament formula raises the squad size and catering costs. So I am genuinely curious: does having 3 queues effectively address the squad size effect problem?

I know it doesn't make unwinnable fights winnable. and It doesn't address the catering discrepancy (and actually adds to supplies costs). and yes, many of those extra troops are just cannon fodder for earlier provinces or the spire while you save merc camp troops for the tough tourney battles. I'm just curious if these high AW players are finding that the queues mean you're no longer prevented from getting the troop # you need for equity with other players?

 

[ErestorX]

does having 3 queues effectively address the squad size effect problem?

No, it doesn't, at least not the problem I have with the impact of wonders on squad size. You still have the choice to build a wonder to get it's positive effects or not to build the wonder to save troops (and for some players goods) because of the lower squad size.

The amount of troops (and or goods) saved because of not building a wonder increases with your activity in tournament and spire. Therefore for very active players the effect of a lot of wonders is way too small to make up for the increased troop size caused by building them.

For my live world 17 wonders did not give enough benefits to make up for the increased troop size with only one production queue. The main effect of having three queues is that the value of wonders producing barrack troops decreases, two wonders (bullwark and pyramid) that where borderline usefull for me before the change will probably become useless because of the change.

But having 3 queues increases the usefulness of expansions, because everybody will need more workshops and players with brown bears will need a lot more armories.

 

[galrond]

Yes, it seems the root of this FARCE is in multiplying factors.
I trust that INNO is staffed by honorable and intelligent people.... Friendly folks, who bear no malice toward their customers!
Yet... this important decision has been left to the Only Person on the face of the Earth who could possibly think this is a Good Idea??

A different formula would be needed, to use Additive Factors, but so much simpler, so much more fair.
And, the relative weight of each could easily be tweaked, to find correct balance, and to prevent people being penalized for achievements.

next thing.. Now, we can run troop buildings concurrently!
For many players, this effectively makes each day 72hrs! (3x24hr). For players with Bears... yes, each day is still "72hrs". But they're no longer able to save Collections- Then feed a Bear once every 2-3 days, and then Bonus All Collections. . Details Matter, but as a general statement, the value of having a Brown Bear has been cut in Half. -- Does this HELP the little guy, -or does it just take out some players at the Knees?

And.... (REALLY??) ... Facing (nearly) unbeatable enemies, battle after battle.....
We Still cant bring MORE TROOPS to the battle (and Win?)... but Now we'll be able to fight it Twice?
(I Guess.... Seems Inno Employee in First Paragraph now has someone to eat lunch with?)

I agree with the part of using additive instead of multiplying factors.
I don´t like the idea, that getting an expansion should weigh harder if you have many/highlevel AW.

On the point about simultanious troop building:
Being able to save collections, and then feed the brown bear(s) and get bonus on all. That is a BUG
It´s about time, that they fixed it.
The brown bear is still overpowered, but now it´ll be used as it was intented to be.
With the simultanious troop building, ppl without brown bears have a better incentment to build all 3 troopproduction sites. There´s little fun in having a building, that you only use 1/3 of the time

I'm saying that it is not acceptable that at certain point you simply can't win a battle and are obliged to cater.

It has always been that way, unless you use enough boosters
That you reach that point sooner now, well that´s another matter.

There´s one thing, that puzzles me a bit:
Ppl still seem to be convinced, that the indirect nerfing of boosters and bears, is an unintended mistake. IT`S NOT.
Instead of decreasing the values of phoenix and bear, they increase the difficulty of tournament.
I think, that INNO more or less are satisfied with the difficulty level.
So when they decrease the inpact of expantions, then they increase something else.
If we want to pay less orcs, coins or supplies, then we´ll have to pay more of something else.
I do think INNO are willing to listen, but don´t expect them to carbon copy our feedback, and throw away their own work

 

[marcovaldo19]

marcovaldo19 said:
I'm saying that it is not acceptable that at certain point you simply can't win a battle and are obliged to cater.

It has always been that way, unless you use enough boosters
That you reach that point sooner now, well that´s another matter.

The not acceptable point is exactly that NOW things are changed. Previously there was a way to manage it and now it can become impossible very soon. I say that if we can invest troops to win in more than one round, this could better balance the impact of troop sizes and variety. this is the reason to let enemy troops dead after each battle. Clearly this will require more troops on our side to win, but at least it will be possible to fight and win instead of catering. I don't understand why a city batle oriented should now change to be a mix of catering and fight.

 

[Lovec Krys]

Being able to save collections, and then feed the brown bear(s) and get bonus on all. That is a BUG
It´s about time, that they fixed it.

That is not a bug! Read the Brown bear effect description:

It gives a pick up production bonus. It works the same way as MM & PoP spells do (you can enchant your Manufactory and Workshop even after the production is finished before you pick it up and still get the bonus of the finished production).

 

[spennyit]

Now the question is: will they change something for next week or will it be another week of unuseful testing?

 

[galrond]

That is not a bug! Read the Brown bear effect description:
View attachment 7889
It gives a pick up production bonus. It works the same way as MM & PoP spells do (you can enchant your Manufactory and Workshop even after the production is finished before you pick it up and still get the bonus of the finished production).

It´s not the effect of the brown bear, that is the bug. It functions as it should.
The bug is being able to start production in another facility, before collecting what´s done in the first one.
The brown bear is just the main reason, that the bug is a problem.
Units don´t degrade over time, so without brown bear there´s no reason not to collect them, when they´re done

 

[spennyit]

The bug is being able to start production in another facility, before collecting what´s done in the first one.

Nowhere it is written that you cannot start a training in mercenary camp if you didn't gather from barracks ;-) It is possible as it is possible to start a manufacture also if you didn't gather from another.
Military buildings have a queue in common, but, when the queue is empty, you must gather only if you want to start a training in the same building and, of course, this can be exploited with the brown bear.
The fact that you don't like this possibility doesn't entitle it to be a bug ;-) A bug is when something works differently from what it is written: have you written evidences that the military buildings should not work as they do? ;-)

 

[galrond]

Nowhere it is written that you cannot start a training in mercenary camp if you didn't gather from barracks ;-) It is possible as it is possible to start a manufacture also if you didn't gather from another.
Military buildings have a queue in common, but, when the queue is empty, you must gather only if you want to start a training in the same building and, of course, this can be exploited with the brown bear.
The fact that you don't like this possibility doesn't entitle it to be a bug ;-) A bug is when something works differently from what it is written: have you written evidences that the military buildings should not work as they do? ;-)

No. I have no written evidence, that the military buildings should not work as they do. Nor do I have any written evidence, that they do
I didn´t have any written evidence, that enemy squad size in old tournament only depended on own squadsize either.
INNO ain´t that good at writing how things should work.
A bug is when a thing works different than intented, not only when it differs from what is written.
When INNO had a common queue for all military buildings, then I seriously doubt, that collecting full queue from all at the same time was intented.
So unless INNO says differently, then I´ll consider it a bug
Without brown bear it had no importence, so no effort was made/needed to fix it.

 

[spennyit]

...

In this case I consider both the Spire and the Tournament as bugs

 

[edeba]

Exactly... For the MM, I do believe it is in one of the tips for how to use it wisely.

It's bad enough that Inno screws us at every turn, but some suggestions take all strategy out of the game and suggesting this feature of being able to collect extra production from any buff is a bug simply reduces strategy. Seriously, there is a tip in the pop-up that you get that suggests there is a better time for using a spell.

It isn't a bug, at all and I do enormously well at taking advantage of it in my live game because I pay very good attention to what's happening in it. I don't do so well with it in my beta game because I don't put in the effort to max all of the resources available. And that's a key difference in the over all benefit.

That is not a bug! Read the Brown bear effect description:
View attachment 7889
It gives a pick up production bonus. It works the same way as MM & PoP spells do (you can enchant your Manufactory and Workshop even after the production is finished before you pick it up and still get the bonus of the finished production).

 

[Steelhail]

This tuesday, en server will have had the new tournament for 3 weeks (since August 18th). Marindor said we'll have had at least 3 weeks after EN release before it could show up on live.
@Marindor could you please let us know whether it could show up in the silk tournament? Some live players are planning brown bear troop queues over the weekend, etc., And sometimes these updates can take us by surprise or create general confusion.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

This tuesday, en server will have had the new tournament for 3 weeks (since August 18th). Marindor said we'll have had at least 3 weeks after EN release before it could show up on live.
@Marindor could you please let us know whether it could show up in the silk tournament? Some live players are planning brown bear troop queues over the weekend, etc., And sometimes these updates can take us by surprise or create general confusion.

Considering it is not even finalized here yet, I doubt anything would change there either. Plus the Autumn event should start on Monday on all the Live servers.

 

[CrazyWizard]

On EN they said it would no go live for at least 1 more week

 

[Aeva]

Silmaril said on EN yesterday:
" As per our announcement linked to this discussion thread; ''The new Tournaments will not go to further Live worlds than EN for at least another 3 weeks after the start of the first new Tournament on EN''
That's another three weeks testing. Yes?

 

[Maillie]

I'm saying that it is not acceptable that at certain point you simply can't win a battle and are obliged to cater.

It has always been that way, unless you use enough boosters
That you reach that point sooner now, well that´s another matter.

NO. No it has NOT always been that way. We could continue to fight until we could finish the 10th chest for the fellowship. Now we can't do that and I lost two key players. I only stopped fighting because the 10th chest was finished, not because I could no longer win a battle.

I'm not upset that they made the tournaments easier for the smaller fellowships, why would I be? They should all have a chance to get the blueprints too. I'm upset because they took a percentage of players and said "Ok, let's make it impossible for these players that have been here the longest, worked the hardest, and spent the most." Why not be satisfied to bring the lower and mid level players up to a par where they can participate, without having to kill off the highest chapter players?

Who would open a store and check all the customers and tell some: "I'm sorry, you work too many hours and make too much money, you can't shop here."