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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

guivou

Well-Known Member
round 5
16k gold, 2.4 k tool, 259 t1, 508 t2
and for province 5
200807085850441229.jpg

(combat easier than round 4 )

round 6
9.7 gold , 860 tool , 641 t1 , 572 t2

last fight province 5 ;
140 t1 , 100 + 100 T2

squad size
province 1 26/20
province2 30/27
province3 34/34
province4 38/41
province 5 42/49





should be interresting to compare next week : i have placed my first wonder and several extension
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
ProvinceMax roundT1T2T3MoneySuppliesOrcsMana
1618 90014 40025 4001 000 00067 00042033 700
2617 30038 40026 4001 200 00067 0002 50024 000
3668 30036 6009 5001 670 000120 0002 50040 000
4662 00039 40040 0001 670 00003 40024 000
5638 00051 00038 4002 500 000304 0004 20020 000
66102 000102 00018 3002 200 00004 6000
7699 00030 00070 7003 000 000170 000037 000
86111 000043 5004 800 000200 00012 70084 000
96104 00051 00037 0004 200 000170 00014 30074 000
105123 00037 00079 0001 800 00005 9000
11559 000102 00015 0004 000 000220 0004 600137 000
12591 00043 00089 0004 900 0000094 000
13590 00021 00051 0005 600 000012 200198 000
14599 00050 00034 0002 400 000590 00020 100111 000
155178 00080 00071 0002 700 000320 000064 000
165202 00026 00096 0002 700 000270 0007 10061 000
17582 000118 00018 0003 400 000320 00024 800192 000
18578 000101 000148 0003 700 00000125 000
195224 000174 00021 0003 700 000660 0008 0000
205230 000107 000112 0000400 0009 2000
215245 000113 00048 0007 500 000370 0008 80077 000
22599 000234 000102 0000390 0009 20081 000
235153 000165 00055 0008 200 000840 00019 7000
245271 000132 00079 0004 500 000440 00011 00084 000
2550299 000113 0000012 000269 000
265179 000226 00087 0000930 0000189 000
275248 00095 000148 0005 000 000490 00011 000100 000
285248 00096 00066 00014 800 000013 000308 000
29567 000195 00065 0005 500 0001 040 00039 000208 000
305337 00053 000236 0000027 0000
315143 000257 000142 00011 100 000540 00015 0000
325433 000163 000106 0005 400 000015 000110 000
335219 000217 000115 0006 100 0001 160 0000230 000
345147 000237 000148 0005 900 0001 210 00016 000120 000
355318 000293 00040 0005 900 000620 00016 000250 000
365476 000181 00081 0000660 00016 000250 000
375242 000251 00083 00013 300 0001 330 00016 000130 000
385244 000256 000127 0006 900 000710 00017 000260 000
395256 000193 000177 0006 900 000690 00018 000260 000
405446 000402 00042 0000035 000150 000
415182 000136 000225 0000036 000580 000
425361 000206 000189 0000760 00018 000290 000
435369 000436 000191 0000018 0000
445483 000438 000194 0000000
455390 000232 000194 0007 700 000041 000150 000
465197 000306 000101 0008 100 000060 000490 000
475300 000310 00049 00016 500 000860 00042 000340 000
485110 000322 000213 00016 800 0002 490 00021 0000
total9 239 5007 665 8004 459 200213 240 00019 408 000687 2206 244 700

enemies:
lm:134
lr:168
ma:112
hm:668
hr:163
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Sure,
3h production (without spells):
planks: 36279
scrolls: 14517
magic_dust: 7204
sentientmarble: 8448
sentientsilk: 10368
sentientgems: 16128
supplies: 135080

24h production (event buildings):
marble: 18360
steel: 17340
planks: 16320
crystal: 22340
scrolls: 83127
silk: 129862
elixir: 23500
magic_dust: 31300
gems: 134950
sentientmarble: 9120
sentientsteel: 8336
sentientplanks: 11342
money: 3139000
supplies: 322600
mana: 296529
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I tinkered with the difficulty increase again. Increasing by 1% per province would make the tournament more difficult and would be a haircut to top players, but I decided to look at 2% as well.

1596980050737.png

With 2% increase per province I thought going up by 10% per level was too steep so I made it 8% per level.

What Inno has done is in the range of a 50-70% haircut for top players, and a total screw job for players that were mostly playing two levels stronger for the kp, and often not even playing level 5 and 6. Players doing that would not be able to go as deep, but in some case the hair cut on this is over 60%. If you are used to getting 300kp by going out to say province 65 from these levels, well now it is incredibly expensive to go out past province 25 so you are getting 80-100kp here, a massive haircut. With this proposal you can go out in the range of 40, maybe 50 provinces, with more difficulty than before and the player that wants to do 25-30 provinces for level 1 and 2 can also do it, with more difficulty, and finish up with 9-16 provinces for levels 3-5.

This gives way more flexibility and maintains some of what players are upset about losing. It is still a massive increase in difficulty, but reduces the hair cut maybe in half.

Orcs need to be fixed. It came up in chapter 15 that the increase in orcs in the tournament and the lack of matching increase in orc output from the armories was a problem and there was a mild adjustment to the orcs because the output per square had actually gone down, so it was adjusted to give a pittance of an increase that did not keep up with orc demands. I went from 4 armories being enough to needing double, and the orc demand in this new tournament is insanely higher. I think it needs to start a chapter later, and at a lower amount, so offset by one province and half the amount. You offset where it shows up by one chapter, but it needs to be two, or 1/3rd the amount.

Armories could also be improved by making the collection times 11.5 hours, 23 hours, 47 hours and 95 hours. You can not maintain a morning and evening collection at all with 12 hours. Actually, all collections should get away from exactly once or twice per day and have that wriggle room so a phone call doesn't cost you a 12 hour collection because it irreversibly pushes you into times it is impossible to collect.

I tinkered with my gradual difficulty increase proposal. I had each level increase by 7.5% and changed that to 10%.
View attachment 7590
So, with this proposal, the first 15 provinces of level 1 are easier. However, these provinces have always been very easy with few losses for most players. It really makes very little difference to the resources of advanced players and does make a difference for players that struggle. From province 16 on it is more difficult. Players that are used to going out long can probably still do so, but it will be an increasing challenge.

For level 2 twenty of the provinces are easier. It is more expensive to go out all the way but players still can. Again, for advanced players, having those first 20 provinces easier makes little difference to the resources they had been using, but this does help the more challenged players.

For level 3 the first 25 provinces are easier, but by province 40 it is like the old level 4. With the old tournament for advanced players the troop size was small enough that losses in the first 10 provinces was not that much of a hit, even if you lost everything and had to try a different approach. So this is not as much of a give to strong players as it appears because of the increasing troop size. This is a proposal to smooth out the increased difficulty to actually achieve greater game enjoyment and competition.

For level 4 the first 30 provinces are easier, level 5 the first 35 provinces are easier and level 6 the first 40 provinces are easier. I think people used to being able to go out 60-80 provinces are going to be able to go out 50 provinces, but are then going to question much stronger about going further and how to go further.

If you actually consider arithmetic sequences and series, you have to look at the formulas involved to properly assess the true difference in difficulty, so you have these formulas:

View attachment 7592 View attachment 7593

So the common difference for troop size "d" is 1. I think the player's starting troop size is the same for all levels, it is just the enemy's troop size that increases to make the increased difficulty.

So, the sum of player troops for the first 15 provinces is S(15)= 120 times the player's base. So for 15 provinces easier, it is 120 times the player's base that has easier battles. So, it isn't 15 more provinces and that "give" is equal, it is 6 to 7 provinces. It is the provinces which S(n)=240 that an additional 120 troops have battled at harder provinces.

S(n)=n(a1 + (a1 + (n-1)d))/2 d=1 a1=1
S(n)=n(1 + (1 + (n-1)))/2
S(n)=n(n+1)/2
240=n(n+1)/2
480=n(n+1)
n^2 + n - 480 = 0
n is between 21 and 22, so by province 22 difficulty has broken even for level 1 with my proposal, and it is far closer to province 21 than 22. And, that doesn't even take into account that all of the competitive players know not to do the squad size upgrades, so chances are with my proposal, this is an over estimate of the where each province is more difficult.

For my proposal for level 2 giving 20 easier provinces, S(20)= 210. S(n)=420 is where troop resources equalize. S(28)=406 and S(29)=435 so the break even on level 2 with my proposal is province 29.

For level 3 with 25 easier provinces S(25)= 325. S(n)=650 is the break even. S(35)=630, S(36)=666, so for level 3 province 36 is the break even.

For level 4 with 30 easier provinces S(30)=465. S(n)= 930 is the break even. S(43)=946, so province 43 is the break even for level 4.

For level 5 with 35 easier provinces S(35)=630 so S(n)=1260 is the break even. S(50)=1275, so province 50 is the break even.

For level 6, with 40 easier provinces S(40)=820 so S(n)=1640 for the break even. S(57)=1653, so the break even is province 57 for level 6.

So because the troop requirement is increasing with each province, the break even on difficult is far earlier than it appears when troop commitment only is considered.

So, for after 50 provinces, the challenge with my proposal is much greater overall, 40% more difficult for level 1, 30% for level 2, 22% for level 3, 15% for level 4, 10% for level 5, and 6% for level 6. I mostly skip higher provinces at level 6 on live, and they have most been done for competition reasons. This chart shows how it plays out for the competitive players and it actually spreads the ability out. I went out 64 provinces to all 6 levels on live this week with 6 military boosts and a polished bird and I know that I could not do that with this proposal, but it would actually create an environment of competition, fun and not totally slaughter us.
View attachment 7591
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
What Inno has done is in the range of a 50-70% haircut for top players, and a total screw job for players that were mostly playing two levels stronger for the kp, and often not even playing level 5 and 6. Players doing that would not be able to go as deep, but in some case the hair cut on this is over 60%. If you are used to getting 300kp by going out to say province 65 from these levels, well now it is incredibly expensive to go out past province 25 so you are getting 80-100kp here, a massive haircut. With this proposal you can go out in the range of 40, maybe 50 provinces, with more difficulty than before and the player that wants to do 25-30 provinces for level 1 and 2 can also do it, with more difficulty, and finish up with 9-16 provinces for levels 3-5.

I'm pretty sure this is exactly the goal, and i have no problem with that. 300kp or 100kp a week, i dont mind.
What I personally can't accept is the uneven starting grounds. If you try to make yourself better you get punished. A noob who gets in end tech for the first time will have a much easier tournament then someone who has been stuck in the last chapter for 8 months a year for the past 3 years.
 

Deleted User - 89508

Guest
Wow.. Preceeding Points... And Many Earlier Points; it seems Many People have a Good idea about how things work.
I wont reveal my Ignorance by Arguing with these Folks.... but i think i Might have another perspective?


This Week, i Drained all the KP from 85 provinces... (i think that gained me 902KP)
Scored something north of 20K in tournament.
And, im wondering, What needs to be Fixed?

Ive worked hard and long... (so very Long)... to be able to do that.
Is there a PROBLEM, so people with 1-2yrs less explore time should have as many provinces?

Is there a Problem, such that people with L21, or L26 AW should have as many troops as Me (with L31)?
Is there a Problem, That the Time instants, and Troop Boosts, that i stockpiled 2 and 3 years ago, should no longer be a benefit to me?
Is there a Problem, so Caterers should be able to just Skip my Learning about units, where to put them? Or, learning best ways to substitute and Adapt? Or, heaven forfend... forget about Long Hours spent learning details of Hand Battles, to preserve every possible Hit Point?

Apology to All who have explained... but, im just not Getting It.
I understand, people in Chapter 1-6 may not want to be Looking Up, quite so Steeply.
And, People in 7-12 might appreciate some way to actually Relate their Status, to their Goal?
I can See tweaks in their Favor, just to make the hill Less steep.

BUT... chopping my 85 provinces to 25, or 35... does not seem helpful- to ANYONE.
What will Current 20-30 province folks Aspire To?

Bumping folks at the Low End, (so 1600pts is Easy) ... maybe Good... but seems to be Watering Down the Game.

YES, totally- later players should have access to One Brown Bear, or One Fire chicken.
But, having More is Over Rated. I'll let others Throw Out Numbers... Having ONE is kind of a big deal. Having Two or More is just one factor among MANY, that lead to Tournament Success... (=Not so big a deal)...

I Do tournament to Grow my City. I Grow my City to do better in Tournament.
It Seems like the changes proposed will destroy most Reasons for City Improvement- (=tournament)
and will destroy the best method to do so (=Tournament).

Im Not threatening a Quit-tantrum... but i AM Definitely wondering what i'd be Playing for, or what anyone would, under proposed changes.

One fix ; For Some (me) a single round takes 75 to 90min of Auto, --on the phone!!
Cutting to Single-Battle Provinces seems way Overdue.

Apologies- Please restrict any replies to my point, and not to my Sprinkling of CAPS.
Ive heard complaints, but some say it Helps with their Quick-Read, (so Deal)
 
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Slikkdogg

New Member
I've responded before and I've read quite a few of the responses. My opinion is that Inno invited us all to start a beta account to skew the numbers because we would never get to the level where it is impossible to win. I have 5 provinces most weeks because I'm in chapter 3 in this beta world and the fights are a breeze if you managed to win some priests and mortars in the previous event. If I believe the people who have cities that can push past 20 provinces, and I do believe them, this new format completely sucks ass. I suggest that Inno throws the whole idea other than going from 4 fights to one fight in the trash can and leave the tournament as it is.

My live cities are chapter 16 and chapter 7 and I literally fight as far as I can in both cities almost every week.

Inno, get a clue Scooby-doo and scrap this trainwreck of an idea before you go live with it and watch 10,000 people scream bloody murder.
 

DeletedUser1739

Guest
And as always, these are the moments when you actually get some new things to share. Over the next couple of weeks, we will focus on these things:

  • Decreasing the chance for mana and orcs to appear in negotiation, plus slightly decreasing the chance of coins and supplies to appear here.
  • Reducing the impact expansions (both premium and regular) have on difficulty for both Tournaments and Spire. Because they also affect the Spire difficulty, these changes will probably be merged to Live sooner than the new tournaments (since we still need testing time for those).
  • Seperating the unit production queues so multiple unit training buildings can work simultaneously. This will probably take a bit more time than the rest.
We have no exact dates yet for the implementations, and these ideas are still subject to change pending investigations, but at least you know what our next topics are, aside from the whole general balancing issue which keeps being investigated. As always, please keep sharing your feedback, because as you can see that does help us make changes in certain directions.
I find these changes quite positive.
I have always found it aberrant that there is only one line for three buildings.
Now I would like the developers to take a look at the nerves of wonders. Not everyone has the fire phoenix and brown bear in x copy or even just one.
It would be a shame to penalize the greatest number of players for a minority which has all these advantages.

I find it unfortunate that some players left before the end of this overhaul because there will still be changes.

In any case, in every way, the tournament had to be reviewed so it's good that the developers have looked into it.

I can't wait to see future developments.
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
Well, we just saw with the ridiculous changes implemented yesterday, at least as SS is concerned, minus 1%, apparently orcs and mana quantities were greatly reduced, that they are not listening and are really intent on punishing their paying customers with a huge increase of troop size (and everything else if you cater) per premium expansion. I can almost see the reviews, the only game were spending doesn't give you an advantage but a disadvantage.
 

marcovaldo19

Well-Known Member
Well, we just saw with the ridiculous changes implemented yesterday, at least as SS is concerned, minus 1%, apparently orcs and mana quantities were greatly reduced, that they are not listening and are really intent on punishing their paying customers with a huge increase of troop size (and everything else if you cater) per premium expansion. I can almost see the reviews, the only game were spending doesn't give you an advantage but a disadvantage.
let's say that for the money used, the advantage is now very little and that ratio advantage/cost has become severe

I did the first 15 but noticed very little changes till first star. Is the announced change really in place?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
yes, it's in place.
T1T2T3MoneySuppliesOrcsMana
marble392350028298002 042 200102 640 0008 378 000287 2202 634 700
steel423480030840002 209 20093 750 00012 166 000168 9001 047 600
delta7,93%8,98%8,18%-8,66%45,21%-41,19%-60,24%
 
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Pauly7

Well-Known Member
The new tournaments are coming to Live EN next week. There always seems an air of finality once something hits the Live servers, although they tell us that this only applies to EN - So we will act as like a Beta Mk 2.

However hard tournaments are getting, I've ceased being too concerned. All I really still want to know is - can all expansions be placed and AWs upgraded without risk of either having a net negative impact? The answer, I think, is still no to both. So this isn't a question of how difficult they are getting or how we are being rewarded less, it's a matter of an element of the game being broken if there can be no tangiable positive effect from upgrading the AWs that have little or no impact on tournaments.

Thankfully at least a step has been taken with regard to expansions, but I've heard no mention so far of whether the Ancient Wonder situation is being considered.
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
We are still considering the general balancing, of which AW levels are a small part as well. It's hard to give an advise on which AW's would be beneficial for your game play. Some AW's might not directly influence tournaments, but will save you so much space you'd need for e.g. residences or workshops without these AW's, that this freed up space does give you the ability to place extra buildings like Armories or Manufactories, which do influence your Tournament performance, so in the end having them does contribute to making the tournaments and Spire easier for you. That's a decision you can only make for yourself.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
Some AW's might not directly influence tournaments, but will save you so much space you'd need for e.g. residences or workshops without these AW's, that in the end this freed up space does give you the ability to place extra buildings like Armories of Manufactories, which does influence your Tournament performance
Presumably you refer to things Like Mountain Halls, Golden Abyss, Prosperity Towers, etc. I don't have an issue with those. Extra population, supplies and/or goods increases tournament performance, of course. Something like Thrones of the High Men, however, always was fairly useless, except for ranking points, but anyone who has this at a high level now has nothing but an anvil around their necks. There are also several others which it is very dubious as to whether they can help tournaments, such as Blooming Trader, Sunset Towers, Vortex of Storage, Enar's Embassy.

I know that you can't share specifics if not finalised, but if it's still being looked at that's all I wanted to know.
 
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