Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[ErestorX]

@edeba I guess this is a misunderstandig. I like a lot of changes including reduction of encounters and increasing enemy troop size very much. The comment you cited was only about the new formula used for troop size calcuations.

 

[Maillie]

The beta fellowship that I'm in here is the ultimate in the term "casual." They don't all visit. They don't have premium anything. They don't have any high level AW's. Some do the tournaments and some never do. Our usual tournament netted us around 4 chests. Occasionally if someone really needed a particular relic we might have gone all out and we have gotten 6 chests to achieve that elusive 2nd RR spell.

That was before.

Now our group is perfect. No diamond expansions, no big AW's to hinder progress, and the same group that got 4 chests last week finished 9 this week. Is this really what you're aiming for? Should we be knocking on the doors of the top players offering them a chance to move to our fellowship where they can easily get 10 chests every week?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Now our group is perfect. No diamond expansions, no big AW's to hinder progress, and the same group that got 4 chests last week finished 9 this week. Is this really what you're aiming for? Should we be knocking on the doors of the top players offering them a chance to move to our fellowship where they can easily get 10 chests every week?

No, all the complaining by the niche players is not about 10 chests, it is about all the KP they are losing because they cannot go as many provinces in the new version. If this were only about 10 chests or not, there would be almost no complaints. I was upset of for the first day or two, but I am not selfish and am accepting the loss of KP so that the vast majority of players will have a better tournament. I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

 

[Jaxom]

Excellent observation! When I would push harder on a tournament I really looked forward to rounds 2 and 5 when the provinces > 10 gave the KPs. I rarely bothered with round 6 unless the group was coming up short on chests.

This week with the new system, I only completed round 2 on 12 of these provinces. #23 killed me on round 1 and I refused to pay 10% of coins and supplies to cater it. And I only got 5 of the #10+ on round 5. Normally I could do 5 rounds on 30 provinces. So I am losing a LOT of KPs.

My cities are not full of level 30 AWs and have a small number of premium expansions but I still cannot see getting more than 4000 points in a tournament without dumping a lot of troops and goods. For me, the rewards are simply not worth it.

I do look forward to the next round of modifications. I just ask that we be informed about what is changing.
If I see something like "Try this and let us know what you think?" I will be more than a wee bit peeved.

 

[DeletedUser3314]

I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

This isn't about anyone's play style, this is about the formula using multiplication so no matter how you play eventually the cost will exponentially go through the roof just like in the Spire.

Basically Inno has made sure this game will come to a stop because none can bring up the necessary cost and/or troops. If so many players are complaining/commenting (we're already on page 26 for this topic within 1 week) their must be something wrong. A game should be fun, this one no longer is.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

This isn't about anyone's play style, this is about the formula using multiplication so no matter how you play eventually the cost will exponentially go through the roof just like in the Spire.

Basically Inno has made sure this game will come to a stop because none can bring up the necessary cost and/or troops. If so many players are complaining/commenting (we're already on page 26 for this topic within 1 week) their must be something wrong. A game should be fun, this one no longer is.

I don't think so. Just compare silk, before the change, and elixir, after the change. Checking at elvenstats, barely the top 50 on Beta got 4k+ points for silk. For elixir, the entire top 100 got 4k+ points. And to compare to the elixir before that, barely the top 60 got 4k+. And just looking at the numbers in-game for elixir, 850 players got 1600+ points. And another 500 players got at least 1000 points. That sounds like a big win for Inno to me. So what do you think Inno will do? Cater to the handful who score high and complain about KP loss? or take care of all the smaller players who obviously did better with this new system?

 

[Heymrdiedier]

No, all the complaining by the niche players is not about 10 chests, it is about all the KP they are losing because they cannot go as many provinces in the new version. If this were only about 10 chests or not, there would be almost no complaints. I was upset of for the first day or two, but I am not selfish and am accepting the loss of KP so that the vast majority of players will have a better tournament. I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

I'm just happy some players still feel like expressing their feeling/emotions. I for one have stopped doing it after getting the impression over and over its useless.

I will quit or adapt, hopefully the adaptation keeps me from quitting but not even that is sure.
I look forward to see how much impact it will give if i drop 300+ wonderlevels etc, hopefully its drastic enough to keep tournaments fun for me, and maybe it will also give me some joy in spire, since that will suddenly become doable aswell. And if its not enough impact, well I can still quit then

The game shouldnt revolve around my playstyle either, but if i worked 3 years or more to upgrade wonders so i can become better in tournaments only hurt my beloved tournaments, I'm not sure i want to adapt again and invest another 3 years, with the risk that its all gonna be rebalanced again then and again all the effort in the drain.
I've had fun improving my city in these past years, so i have no regrets, but I will also have no regrets just quitting if the fun is gone.

Cater to the handful who score high and complain about KP loss? or take care of all the smaller players who obviously did better with this new system?

I don't think the issue is about the loss of the KP, i think its about the loss in performance. If the top players suddenly can't reach the top anymore because they are penalised more then orc chapter accounts. Its like a sports competition, where suddenly they change the rules so that all veteran competitors need to start 30m further from the start line. while the others have a normal start line. And those who handicap themselves and get a sponsor to help them out, even have a 30m head start.


Tournaments have always been and always will be a competition, for me rule 1 for any kind of competition is that the same rules apply to everyone.

 

[Karvest]

I don't think so. Just compare silk, before the change, and elixir, after the change. Checking at elvenstats, barely the top 50 on Beta got 4k+ points for silk. For elixir, the entire top 100 got 4k+ points. And to compare to the elixir before that, barely the top 60 got 4k+. And just looking at the numbers in-game for elixir, 850 players got 1600+ points. And another 500 players got at least 1000 points. That sounds like a big win for Inno to me.

For me it sounds just like a big bunch of players decided to try what's new there and pushed their limits to check.

 

[30158729]

Id like to bring up the extra chests. I play both live and beta and get 10 chests on both. When we got the 10th chest this week I got to look at the extra chests and it is so discouraging. The rewards for getting 10 chests is helpful and worth it. We get 135 kp plus extras for 40000 tournament points but the extra chests give 90 kp and 9 RR for over 125000 extra points. It would require a monumental effort for a fellowship to attain all chests, over 6500 points per player with a 25 person fellowship. It is fair that people who put in more effort will gain more rewards. Therefore the rewards should be significantly increased.

Fellowships will try to push to be the first to attain x chest but once they have achieved it there is no incentive to go for it again as the effort it takes much outweighs the benefits.

 

[Buttrflwr]

We are casual players on Beta, and got 3 more chests than we normally do. That is huge for a small FS. However, that being said, on live we are serious tourney players, and we all usually go pretty deep, 20+ provinces X 5 or 6 stars. I don't know that I see that continuing to happen with the increased difficulty of the higher provinces. Also, MANA? Are you KIDDING ME? That was one thing that I was so glad I didn't have to spend in tourney, because it is ridiculously required in upper chapters, ESPECIALLY this last one. over 2 million to upgrade one AW. I guess time will tell how it will be received on live, but as for me, I like it overall. I HATE the eternal click click click, so am willing to spend more GOODS (not mana) lol and more troops, as I am one of those who skipped most of the optional SS upgrades. It's a trade off for sure, but one so far I am liking. As I said, time will tell on live. I may be one of the curmudgeons when I see how it plays out there.

 

[CrazyWizard]

No, all the complaining by the niche players is not about 10 chests, it is about all the KP they are losing because they cannot go as many provinces in the new version. If this were only about 10 chests or not, there would be almost no complaints. I was upset of for the first day or two, but I am not selfish and am accepting the loss of KP so that the vast majority of players will have a better tournament. I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

Well it's a shame we lost the KP, but thats by far not the main issue at least for me, my problem is that there is no longer an incent to go forward, to develop your city and improve, and the death of competition between players.

For me it sounds just like a big bunch of players decided to try what's new there and pushed their limits to check.

Yup it's like a new restaurant opening, you cannot predict results based on the first week, that data is in essence useless.
Everyone likes to see the new toy, it's not a representation of regular play.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

For me it sounds just like a big bunch of players decided to try what's new there and pushed their limits to check.

Well, since this week is Dust, the most annoying of the nine, with maybe Scrolls being worse, I expect drop-off because of that and not because of the new system. But regardless of all the different player opinions, it really looks like these changes are meant to help smaller players and fellowships get 10 chests more often, because a request/complaint I see a lot is that there is no other place to get blueprints than in that 10th chest. And is Inno going to do something that will benefit the vast majority of players or the small minority? Are any of the players complaining about losing all the KP even ones who spend real money on the game? Or did most of them get their diamonds for free from wishing wells?

And @CrazyWizard I advanced my Live city just fine before I started running deep into the 2nd star of provinces for KP. I didn't start doing that every week until I started chapter 16. So I still got to the end of all current chapters a little less than 4 years after I started playing the game. That is an average of 3 months per chapter, or a lot faster than Inno wants us going. So if less KP makes you hate the game so much, why not just quit?

 

[Alcaro]

So if less KP makes you hate the game so much, why not just quit?

Please refrain from such comments. This is the most *** and childish reply from someone ... "why not just quit?". What if all players would quit when something is wrong, instead trying to address to the problem? We do not quit for many reasons ... because we invested years of playing, money, because we started playing this game cuz it suits us better than others, because we have friends after such a long time ... this doesn't mean we have to be quiet and accept everything what comes from developers. They need us if they want a job, therefore they have to hand us the expected fun and everything else is in the game description in return.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Please refrain from such comments. This is the most *** and childish reply from someone ... "why not just quit?". What if all players would quit when something is wrong, instead trying to address to the problem? We do not quit for many reasons ... because we invested years of playing, money, because we started playing this game cuz it suits us better than others, because we have friends after such a long time ... this doesn't mean we have to be quiet and accept everything what comes from developers. They need us if they want a job, therefore they have to hand us the expected fun and everything else is in the game description in return.

Plenty of people quit this game for all sorts of reasons. Some players invent reasons to quit because they are tired of the game and just need a reason to stop playing. And that is exactly what his comment sounded like. " Oh no, I can't get all the KP any more, so now the game is worthless to me." If someone has to say something like that, then they are on the edge of quitting anyway, so why not just get it over with and leave?

 

[edeba]

I agree, there are a number of good stated goals, however, they specifically stated a goal to single out playing style where you stop to work on AWs to strengthen your game so you will be a strong player, or were a strong player, in the same paragraph where they claim to support the range of playing styles. I don't remember how long we've had the spire now, but when it started, I didn't have enough orcs. I've been cautious with them, built 3 or 4 more armories and put out orc strategies and I burned 40% of the orcs I've accumulated since the spire started. Last week I didn't need orcs for the tournament and I'd have used maybe only 40% of the rest of the resources I used this week, with the exception of orcs... I burned months worth of orc production. I used less orcs to cater the 4 provinces for my end of chapter 16 province 65 level 6 live game. An armory makes 4.4 times as many orcs in chapter 16 as chapter 9, and I need more in the new tournament chapter 9 province 30 than the old tournament chapter 16 province 35?

@edeba I guess this is a misunderstandig. I like a lot of changes including reduction of encounters and increasing enemy troop size very much. The comment you cited was only about the new formula used for troop size calcuations.

 

[Steelhail]

Obviously, chapter 17’s future changes are a secret, and chapter 17’s relevance might be a long time coming for many people anyway. But:

For those of us (like myself) whose evaluation of changes is more negative, I try to remind myself I might be less frustrated if I knew what were coming. For example, if there were a chapter 17 AW that would lower my AW spire/tournament “carbon footprint” (since players at the end are often those who have already invested the most in AWs waiting for new chapters). Or if future techs would improve unit strength significantly, such as the introduction of 4 star units or a new type of unit or fighting dynamics (maybe a flying unit, given the air trader station?).

I’m not asking INNO to tell us this. But I am wondering out loud whether these tournament changes were the end goal, or they were also preparation for balancing an upcoming goal, since that might shape my evaluation. I just keep thinking, "What will be the effect on end game players with super-high AW costs like @CrazyWizard going into chapter 17, who already have all their 3-star troops?"

 

[SoggyShorts]

@edeba I guess this is a misunderstandig. I like a lot of changes including reduction of encounters and increasing enemy troop size very much. The comment you cited was only about the new formula used for troop size calcuations.

Edeba always puts the quote under his response, that's why there was confusion.

 

[edeba]

If it was a matter of being able to go 10-20% less with the same resources there wouldn't be this outcry. If they weren't penalizing people for their purchases, there wouldn't be this outcry. It is akin to swapping out the leather seats you paid for in your car for smelly torn seats with springs sticking through.

No, all the complaining by the niche players is not about 10 chests, it is about all the KP they are losing because they cannot go as many provinces in the new version. If this were only about 10 chests or not, there would be almost no complaints. I was upset of for the first day or two, but I am not selfish and am accepting the loss of KP so that the vast majority of players will have a better tournament. I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

Wow. Getting more than double the chests is far more than double the score. So you go from 6-8k to 32+k, like in the range of 4 times your score and high end players have the capacity to get 1/2 or 1/3rd.

Now our group is perfect. No diamond expansions, no big AW's to hinder progress, and the same group that got 4 chests last week finished 9 this week. Is this really what you're aiming for? Should we be knocking on the doors of the top players offering them a chance to move to our fellowship where they can easily get 10 chests every week?

It is the loss KP, the loss performance and ability to compete, the loss of spells and the having to back to watching the clock for when the next level opens. I've mostly been playing the first two levels long and often not getting to the 5th or 6th level. When playing style has been forced to a box and is depended on all levels convenience following your timetable as you see fit is also compromised. Level 5 and 6 are 42% of the score potential.

I don't think the issue is about the loss of the KP, i think its about the loss in performance. If the top players suddenly can't reach the top anymore because they are penalised more then orc chapter accounts. Its like a sports competition, where suddenly they change the rules so that all veteran competitors need to start 30m further from the start line. while the others have a normal start line. And those who handicap themselves and get a sponsor to help them out, even have a 30m head start.

I pushed this tournament because as expressed before it started, concerns were completely valid, and probably understated. My score was deliberately higher, and at a high cost.

For me it sounds just like a big bunch of players decided to try what's new there and pushed their limits to check.

Worthless and lack of incentive are different, and there is a very strong chorus that it isn't just about the loss of kp.

Plenty of people quit this game for all sorts of reasons. Some players invent reasons to quit because they are tired of the game and just need a reason to stop playing. And that is exactly what his comment sounded like. " Oh no, I can't get all the KP any more, so now the game is worthless to me." If someone has to say something like that, then they are on the edge of quitting anyway, so why not just get it over with and leave?

 

[CrazyWizard]

And @CrazyWizard I advanced my Live city just fine before I started running deep into the 2nd star of provinces for KP. I didn't start doing that every week until I started chapter 16. So I still got to the end of all current chapters a little less than 4 years after I started playing the game. That is an average of 3 months per chapter, or a lot faster than Inno wants us going. So if less KP makes you hate the game so much, why not just quit?

????????????
What kind of response is this, didn't I just said it's a shame but not the issue?
So why are you trying to slap me with something I did not say was a problem?

What is your problem?

 

[DeletedUser1657]

No, all the complaining by the niche players is not about 10 chests, it is about all the KP they are losing because they cannot go as many provinces in the new version. If this were only about 10 chests or not, there would be almost no complaints. I was upset of for the first day or two, but I am not selfish and am accepting the loss of KP so that the vast majority of players will have a better tournament. I do not think the game should revolve around my play style, the way some of the others here seem to.

Why would you assume that making 10 chests easier and players doing lots of provinces are mutually exclusive? In fact the 2 go hand in hand as many fellowships have strong players carrying the team. This change narrows that band so you need more players doing more to get to 10 chest but the difficulty for many of the early provinces is gifted to the players.

I think we are reading different forums as I have seen no complaints about this. Complaints about difficulty, mechanics and KP loss, yes but none of those impact an easier 10 chest, in fact resolving those issue would actually help those fellowships even more. People aren't arguing for it to be harder.

I don't think so. Just compare silk, before the change, and elixir, after the change. Checking at elvenstats, barely the top 50 on Beta got 4k+ points for silk. For elixir, the entire top 100 got 4k+ points. And to compare to the elixir before that, barely the top 60 got 4k+. And just looking at the numbers in-game for elixir, 850 players got 1600+ points. And another 500 players got at least 1000 points. That sounds like a big win for Inno to me. So what do you think Inno will do? Cater to the handful who score high and complain about KP loss? or take care of all the smaller players who obviously did better with this new system?

There is oh so much wrong with that comparison. While interesting there are underlying matters that make it utterly unreliable:

• Silk is a harder province
• Elixir is one of the easiest (one of the 2 easiest)
• It fails to account for players testing the new system by doing more than normal
• It fails to account for players testing the new system by logging into beta for the first time in months, or just doing tourny for the first time in months

Again you are assuming players who score big are unhappy that it is easier on lower levels, again I haven't seen anyone complain about this. The issue (well one of them) is the point at which the difficulty caps and the impact that has on fellowships. Sure KP is part of it but there are greater mechanics people are arguing about. If we just stick to KP factor this in, if the KP is now gone how bad do you think the newer players will feel when they see level 30 wonders in towns from pre-change to post, knowing they will never ever get enough KP to get lvl 30? Halve the amount of KP and you create a huge gap that can't be bridged.

Did you figure out yet that while they make it super easy to get 10 chests they made it impossible to get the new chests they just added. Doesn't sound like an intended change but a calculation mistake to me.