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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Jaxom

Well-Known Member
I just got a request from a member of my Beta fellowship to share with the group what factors are most important in determining tournament difficulty in the new system. Some members are saying Premium expansions, others are saying is is AW levels.

No one seems happy with the new system. Our top player who could regularly get 8000 points when we did a 10-chest push says he barely got 4000 this time before his troops were gone.

So can someone summarize what the factors are so I can pass them on. Folks say there is too much in these forum threads to make sense of them!
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I apologize if i hurt anyone, but you, Marindor, hurt me much more with your innovations. Why were guests removed from the units? Where is everyone's favorite strategy? Why for a long time it was more difficult for me to fight and buy out the tournament than for another player who came into the game later than me and did not teach all these technologies to the squad? He developed to my head, became just as strong, but it was easier for him.
And now you took it and reset it in an instant? I apologize for my anger, but it has a basis.
You're mad that someone else is getting something even though nothing is being taken away from you? That's a sad way to go and you'll find yourself being angry a lot in life if you view things like that.:(
I have all of the goods saved up to buy those techs on live and I could get the one set I'm missing in a few days on Beta. So what if I wasted a few days every single chapter gathering some spare goods "just in case"?

I'm very happy for all of the players who will benefit from this change.
 

DeepTerminal

Active Member
Just a quick question - since the player squad size is no longer tied to SSU, does that mean that having optional SSUs have absolutely no effect on tournament difficulty? If I understand the new system correctly, your research, expansion, etc. determine your initial squad size, and the enemy squad size is always a certain ratio to your squad size, which means your "normal squad size" is completely irrelevant to the tournament.

Is this correct? Does this mean that optional SSU upgrades will only help with world map encounters, but will neither help nor harm spire and tourney?
 

DeletedUser2705

Guest
I'm very happy for all of the players who will benefit from this change.
Me not. Everyone who wanted to have accumulated these guests. If other players have not done this, then I see no reason to make their lives easier. Strategy?!
This is about the same as one player received 3 brown bears, and the other 1 and complains. I see it this way.
But in any case, everything is decided, whether I like it or not.

When another player shakes wonders with cartoons, this also does not concern me much, no one takes anything away from me. But this has a tremendous impact on the entire server, including my development.
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Just a quick question - since the player squad size is no longer tied to SSU, does that mean that having optional SSUs have absolutely no effect on tournament difficulty? If I understand the new system correctly, your research, expansion, etc. determine your initial squad size, and the enemy squad size is always a certain ratio to your squad size, which means your "normal squad size" is completely irrelevant to the tournament.

Is this correct? Does this mean that optional SSU upgrades will only help with world map encounters, but will neither help nor harm spire and tourney?

Yes, the optional squad upgrades only effect your actual squad size as it shows in the barracks, so researching them will make your world map fighting easier and not effect any other fighting in the game. The optional researches will also make some AWs work better too.
 

DeletedUser2770

Guest
Therefore our aim is, for example for players who put 3000 KP in their AW, to make it just as hard/challenging as for someone who put these same 3000 KP in their tech tree. This is not to "punish" anyone, but it's a way to try and make it fair play for everyone, no matter your play style. I'm not saying we're there yet and we have found the ideal solution to everything, but that's what we're aiming to achieve.

This does not compute tho. When you are tech-locked on research, you have no where to put those KP except into AW. So if I am tech-locked, I now have the option to put my KP into my own AW, and raise the tournament level to a point I cannot compete, or I can sabotage another player by dumping those KP into their AW and make their tournament harder.

Tournament difficulty should not be tied to how many KP you've earned/spent over the lifetime of your game play. Now everyone who has enjoyed pushing hard on tournaments to earn 400+ KP in a week are being punished for it.

I've already seen players 4+ years into the game leaving over this, because they've worked hard to earn the KP to level their AWs to 30 because that was what game design said they were supposed to do. Now they're being told "well, you really should have stopped at lvl 16". Where is the logic to this? To tell a player "work hard, progress the chapters. And we would prefer you to advance your AWs so we're going to make it beneficial for you to do that" then turn around a year or two later and say "oh we changed our mind. We didn't REALLY mean for you to do that."
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Tournament difficulty should not be tied to how many KP you've earned/spent over the lifetime of your game play.

It is not. Others have said this and I have said this before. The difficulty is the same for everyone. The percent difference between your troops and the enemy troops is the same for everyone fighting the same star in the same province. The AW levels and the number of expansions and other factors effect how large your squad size is. Your squad could be 100 or 1000 or 10000 and the enemy will have the percent of your squad that is programmed for the province and star you are fighting. For example, in the first star of the tenth province, the enemy squad will be 15% more than your troops, no matter what chapter you are in or how many AW levels you have, etc. And in the first star of the twentieth province, the enemy will have 58% more troops than you, or about the same as the sixth star of any province in the old system. It is that hard whether you have 500 AW levels or 5 AW levels. They are not connected.

It is your cost in how many troops you have to make, or in goods you have to produce, to be able to complete the provinces that the AW levels and expansions, etc matter. If you have trouble making enough of either to even do the easy provinces, maybe the tournament really is too difficult for you to do.
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
Is this correct? Does this mean that optional SSU upgrades will only help with world map encounters, but will neither help nor harm spire and tourney?
As mentioned, wonders such as Bulwark and any that produce troops scale with SS, so it's beneficial to make those more valuable. In addition, any squad instants are based on a number (5, 10, 25) of squads and therefore also get better the more upgrades you've taken. Assuming there's no rollback on untying tournament squad size from actual squad size (and I don't think anyone is advocating that), there are benefits to be had from unlocking all those old SSU researches, but it's not huge.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
This is from the announcement about the tournament changes:

"… the enemy will now always come to the battlefield with 5, instead of varying numbers of Squads. This will make the difficulty easier to understand, as it allows for a more direct comparison between your own and the enemy's Squad Sizes and composition."

So, why not show the difficulty? It's just the ratio of the Enemy Squadsize to yours expressed as a percentage. Since difficulty used to only change with the round, it wasn't as needed to see. Now that it changes with province number too, it's more important to know battle to battle. For example: The Enemy Squadsize is 509 and yours is 679, thus the difficulty is 75,0% (or 75.0%). For squad sizes of 1412 to 1833 it is also 75,0%. Just looking at the squad sizes, it's not obvious the battles have the same difficulty. Putting the difficulty on the dialog where you decide whether to cater or fight seems the most useful place to put it. And yes, I know there are many other things that go into the 'real' difficulty such as terrain and specific enemy troops, etc. This is just the difficulty based on squad size.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
This is from the announcement about the tournament changes:

"… the enemy will now always come to the battlefield with 5, instead of varying numbers of Squads. This will make the difficulty easier to understand, as it allows for a more direct comparison between your own and the enemy's Squad Sizes and composition."

So, why not show the difficulty? It's just the ratio of the Enemy Squadsize to yours expressed as a percentage. Since difficulty used to only change with the round, it wasn't as needed to see. Now that it changes with province number too, it's more important to know battle to battle. For example: The Enemy Squadsize is 509 and yours is 679, thus the difficulty is 75,0% (or 75.0%). For squad sizes of 1412 to 1833 it is also 75,0%. Just looking at the squad sizes, it's not obvious the battles have the same difficulty. Putting the difficulty on the dialog where you decide whether to cater or fight seems the most useful place to put it. And yes, I know there are many other things that go into the 'real' difficulty such as terrain and specific enemy troops, etc. This is just the difficulty based on squad size.

Not to be "that person", but I would think most players would catch on pretty quickly to the pattern and the percentages. I can open the calculator app on my phone and figure out the percentage difference between squads in just a few seconds. And I have written the squad numbers down each day of the tournament to compare them as see in front of me how the squad differences matches up on the diagonal perfectly.

Oh, and I am not sure how you are doing your math, but if your squad is 509 and theirs is 679, that is a difficulty of 1.33 or an enemy squad 33% larger than yours. Or in game terms, just harder than the 4th star in the old system. And 1412 and 1833 is 1.30, or 30%, which is equal to the 4th star in the old system.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Not to be "that person", but I would think most players would catch on pretty quickly to the pattern and the percentages.
Sorry, but you are in this case. Just ignore the number if it bothers you. I think most players know the difficulty goes up as you go deeper and wider. I also think they would catch on that at a particular percentage, it becomes too difficult, especially looking at the enemy troop types.
I can open the calculator app on my phone and figure out the percentage difference between squads in just a few seconds.
Why should I have to open a calculator or remember the values for each prov and round? That's what computers are good at. I can get a rough estimate in my head quickly enough, but neither my nor the enemy's squad size is shown on the dialog I mentioned. So, I'd have to go to the Army Setup dialog, look at the squad sizes, get out my calc., type them in and do the divide. Oops, this ones too difficult. Dismiss the dialog, reopen the cater vs fight dialog and now choose cater. That's a lot more work than just glancing at a number. I'd rather use my brain looking at the difficulty, catering cost and the troops they are bringing to determine what to do next then being distracted by yet another bit of math and having to open and close more dialogs. Besides, the purpose of the 5 squads was to make it easier to compare. So, why not take that one more step and make it easy and put the info where it's most needed?
Oh, and I am not sure how you are doing your math, but if your squad is 509 and theirs is 679, that is a difficulty of 1.33 or an enemy squad 33% larger than yours.
For example: The Enemy Squadsize is 509 and yours is 679
Notice whose squadsize is whose in my examples. You got them backwards. I chose to do the difficulty as @Dony's table shows them. They start small and grow with province and round. And yes, I'm pretty good with math.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
1) I tired of hearing all the time, how piss easy it to get 1600+ points in original tournament. It´s between the lines: if you don´t, you´re either a retard or lasy, and most likely both. My alt is in beginning Orc chapter, so my heavy ranged is only 2 star. Against other 2 star (and even worse 3 star) oponents it gets it´s ass handed to it. Now I know you´ll say: "you have to use them against light enemies". I am. I understand the battle mecanics behind troop strength/weakness against other troop types. So for an eliksir tournament to be piss easy, I either have to use attack/health boosts, or hope some kind soul donates me a lot of trading goods (since catering same provinces cost way more that I can produce).

2) The notion that "It´s because I worked hard to upgrate my AWs, that I do so well in tournament". Well highlevel AW sure helps a lot, but the benefits from a L35 Needles of the tempest is easyly dwarfed by a well fed fire phoenix/ LR attack booster and a well fed Brown bear. And yes I know the benefit from Needles is permanent. The Timewarp sure helps a lot, so you don´t have to use so much petfood, diamonds/time reducers, if you want to go beyond round 2 in tournament.

3) There´s be a lot more pushing, if the hardcore accounts have to get their "usual" kps. I guess that´s right. It´s so damn easy to push. If you want 50 kp/h.... make 50 accounts. You don´t have to be in guild with them. You do have to research AW on them, but then knock yourself out. This have nothing to do with tournament. It´s only a question about the restrictions (or absence of) helping others AW.

4) There´s been complaints, that INNO want`s to remove the cost of guest race goods from SS research. Ofc they have to!!!! You can´t go around punishing ppl because they weighted cheaper tournament encounters over easier map encounters.

5) The notion of "if your strenght is increased, so should the difficulty/cost of the encounters". I don´t agree. As most can agree upon after reading 1), I´m not a good player! Still I want a chance to improve in tournament. It can be by upgrading my AWs, training facilities, manufaturies, buying expansions, or what ever I deem makes me stronger. Grinding should help the less skilled players.

6) I´m not saying that the difficulty should only depend on chapter level. I agree that the difficulty/costs have to increase as you progress to make it exciting. But I do NOT buy in on the notion, that if it only depended on chapter level, many would refrain from going to the next chapter. Some may wait a bit to grow stronger, but I don´t see anyone saying: "look at me I´m so tough. I`m the king of chapter 10" :p

I know some (or maybe most) of the above had been said by others in other words. But I felt compelled to say it in my words and my context. I´ve read many of the previous posts, and thought: "that´s right. That´s the way it is", only to see them make a conclusion that (in my mind) contredicted it, or at least didn´t support it o_O

It´s not my intention to insult anyone, and if I have... Well I would say, that I´m sorry, but I have to say how I see things.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you are in this case. Just ignore the number if it bothers you. I think most players know the difficulty goes up as you go deeper and wider. I also think they would catch on that at a particular percentage, it becomes too difficult, especially looking at the enemy troop types.

Why should I have to open a calculator or remember the values for each prov and round? That's what computers are good at. I can get a rough estimate in my head quickly enough, but neither my nor the enemy's squad size is shown on the dialog I mentioned. So, I'd have to go to the Army Setup dialog, look at the squad sizes, get out my calc., type them in and do the divide. Oops, this ones too difficult. Dismiss the dialog, reopen the cater vs fight dialog and now choose cater. That's a lot more work than just glancing at a number. I'd rather use my brain looking at the difficulty, catering cost and the troops they are bringing to determine what to do next then being distracted by yet another bit of math and having to open and close more dialogs. Besides, the purpose of the 5 squads was to make it easier to compare. So, why not take that one more step and make it easy and put the info where it's most needed?

I am so used to only fighting that I click right through the screen where you choose to cater or fight. Even if they would not put the actual percentage there, maybe we should post a suggestion for it to show our squad size on that screen, so it can be compared to the enemy squad number before choosing fight or cater.

Notice whose squadsize is whose in my examples. You got them backwards. I chose to do the difficulty as @Dony's table shows them. They start small and grow with province and round. And yes, I'm pretty good with math.

I am so used to people listing their squad size first and then the enemy's that I did not even notice that you reversed it. So we were both right, depending on which order was used. lol
 

Skillpowers

Well-Known Member
why didn't you guys made it the easy way honestly

before it calculates on ur training group size (all the techs u unlocked) , why didn't you just change it that it only checks the one that you HAVE to unlock to continue in the chapters.
 
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